***Challenge 3 Results***

[Greg B]

As a thought for consideration only......

It seems that adherence to the theme is as important or even more important than the quality or standard of the photograph - at least in the minds of some participants.

I agree that a theme makes it much easier to comparatively rate photos (as a simple example, it would be more difficult to rate a colour portrait compared to a BW landscape than to rate two BW landscapes). However, are we seeking excellence in photography, or theme interpretation?

For a variety of reasons to do with holidays and other stuff, I didn't lodge an entry or vote this time around. I agree it was a challenging theme, and a hearty congratulations to those who tackled it and particularly to the winners.

And good luck Rokkstar choosing the next theme. My suggestion would be to have a less challenging theme, even an easy theme, so that the emphasis could be more on the photograph than on adherence to the theme.

Just a thought. Congratulations again to all.

[rokkstar]

I thought the last theme was terrific.
I loved the fact that everyone was puzzled by how to interpet it and the results that came back were all original interpretations.
I do however think a great deal of time was spent looking into it a bit too deeply, myself included.

I have spoken to Scott about the next theme and I think its simpler. I have to write some blurb about it but im finding that even harder than picking the theme

Hopefully the theme will produce a wide range of great photographs.

More soon
Matt

[W00DY]

My suggestion would be to have a less challenging theme, even an easy theme, so that the emphasis could be more on the photograph than on adherence to the theme.

I agree with Greg here. I had fun with this theme but found myself concentrating to much on it rather than my photography (if that makes sense).

I also found myself voting some images quite low becouse I would look at them and think to myself, well that's how I would usually take that image so wheres the different perspective?
Obviously this is a personal opinion and I voted on the theme rather than the photographer's talent.

In regards to Dooda's comments re low scoring, I think this may be caused by the fact you have to vote for every image (well you don't have to but I guess you should?). When you have to give 30odd images a score you tend to get fairly critical of some. There was a suggestion after the first comp to limit the amount of images you had to score on, something like you give your top five a score from 1 - 5 (obviously 1 being the best and 5 being your 5th fav) and that's all, I still think this is an excellent idea.

Anyway looking forward to the next theme. Maybe Rokkstar can make the theme W00DY's family

W00DY

[Greg B]

I have had another thought Holy crapolla, two in one day.

Anyhoo, how about, instead of voting each photo on an "out of five" basis, everyone could put them in order of most preferred to least preferred, so if you have 50 entries, #1 gets 50 points, #2 gets 49 etc etc.

Scott may have to book time on a Cray to get the results sorted out, but it could be an interesting approach.

[stubbsy]

Greg B

What you're talking about is a fairly straightforward mathematical weighting exercise (eg you get 1 point for each first, 2 for each second etc) and the LOWEST score wins.

Dooda

I rated a few at the bottom. One or two I thought bore no resemblance to the theme and one or two I thought were poor images. Of course given the pic had to match the theme (otherwise we could just submit anything!) then I weighted this higher than the quality of the image when casting votes (and I voted for EVERY image)

For my top 5-10 rated images I thought they were all very good at meeting the theme AND very good images so the quality of the shot got them to the top of my voting.

So... feedback would have to have 2 components - did you like the shot & did you think it conformed to the theme. Maybe future voting needs to separate these out, although I'm not sure complicating things for Scott (or changing them) is necessarily a good idea given the winners probably were the best shots submitted regardless of the theme.

Personally I rated 15th and I'm happy with that. I actually got a lot of pleasure in being forced to be creative when shooting and to look for the theme in my shots since, rather than just taking shots I thought would match the theme, I also looked at ALL my "good" shots in the period to see if any were candidates. In my case it was one of the unplanned ones that I ended up submitting. All in all I found this a very worthwhile exercise.

Finally (I know I've rambled on a bit) I also went back after the comp and commented on those images where I felt so disposed. I'd encourage others to do the same.

Cheers

[sirhc55]

I know that when I submitted there might be some argument as to whether or not I had PP passed the limits.

To me a different perspective was something that we were all aware of but photographed in a way that was different.

My pic followed a technique that is not often used - I chose a bowl of fruit (2 bananas and 2 nectarines) and using the kit lens set at f/22 I used a slow shutter speed and zoomed as the exposure was being taken.

This gave a form of still life that approached fine art IMO.

I just had to explain my approach. I just hope, as voiced in this thread, that the next challenge leans more towards the taking of a photograph without having to wrack the old brain cells

[Glen]

Just to reiterate a point of Stubbsy's, we can all pass comments now (I believe it is all, not just entrants) on the images. Whilst I note some complaining about not enough feedback, very few have commented even though they have a chance to.

[MHD]

All excellent points..

The only think holding me back from doing a voting scheme (rather than scoring scheme) ie you have 3 votes to give (one worth 3, one worth 2, one worth 1) is I would need to modify the code (not to hard) to stop people voting for themselves..

With the scoring system this does not matter as we can just assume everyone gives them selves top marks (consider it bonus points for entering)

Yes, after talking to Rokkstar, the next theme is easy and IMHO offers exciting creative possibilities..

And yes! MAKE COMMENTS! Both here and on the gallery site.

And now is the time to bring up what you dont or do like about the submission rules as they will not be changed once comp is in progress (soon!)

And I am after feedback on the submission method... Did people find it harder or easier doing it by email?
Personally I liked it, I saved money on bandwidth and I was able to catch invalid entries before they were posted...

[timbo]

Just logged in after a couple of weeks offline and can only add my belated congratulations to Rokkstar, Glenn and all the other entrants. Some great shots there, and what a fabulous first prize! Regrettably I left it too late to vote but I loved the delicate symmetry of Leek's "Gentle extraction".
If you snooze you lose... all too true. I look forward to the announcement of the next theme and joining in this time! - Tim

[JordanP]

I'm the culprit who came up with the last theme. I would agree that the style of theme had us concentrating to a large degree on the theme and perhaps not so much on the technical aspects of photography - but in the interests of photography it was chosen to help develop the photographic eye and broaden our minds a little in terms of subject matter , approach and composition - not to forsake the finer points of photography.

All that said - I'm looking forward to a simple theme

[Glen]

Craig, I liked your theme in that it made everyone think. For myself, it took about two hours (not consecutively) to think of the shot, then about 15 minutes to shoot it. That is way different to usual. Thanks for an interesting theme

[leek]

I loved the delicate symmetry of Leek's "Gentle extraction"

Awww shucks... thanks...

We actually discussed the challenge at the mini-meet on Saturday and came to the conclusion that different themes could be used to place emphasis on different aspects of photography. Matt K's example was that if the theme was an egg in an egg-cup, then the emphasis would be more on technique and creativity.

Another possibility would be for us to vote on different factors for each photo... e.g. separate votes for technical merit, composition, adherence to theme, creativity etc.... Maybe this is overkill, but it would provide entrants with better feedback...

A suggestion for the submission rules might be to allow each entrant to change their image once during the submission period... This might encourage earlier submission of the entries rather than the last minute rush... Just a thought...

[Glen]

Leek, the other advantage of an early entry is everyone knows you thought of the idea and hopefully will mark accordingly. Eg if I saw another half underwater shot like Killa's (the first entry), I would have viewed that as a copy with lack of originality, and marked accordingly.

ps I also liked your image but you probably knew that from my comments on it

[MHD]

That is not a bad thought leek...

The only problem is that it does complicate things a bit, as one nice thing about getting an entry is I know that one is valid, set in stone and does not have to be dealt with again, but if an inertia of support builds up for your suggestion I have no problems with it being implemented

[Greg B]

I'm the culprit who came up with the last theme. I would agree that the style of theme had us concentrating to a large degree on the theme and perhaps not so much on the technical aspects of photography - but in the interests of photography it was chosen to help develop the photographic eye and broaden our minds a little in terms of subject matter , approach and composition - not to forsake the finer points of photography.

All that said - I'm looking forward to a simple theme

Just for the record Craig, I thought it was a good theme idea too. And there is plenty of room for themes of all types, anything which gets us thinking about taking photographs and inspiring us is good.

I was a member of a camera club some years ago, and we would have maybe 10 comps per year, 7 or 8 would be themed, and 2 or 3 would be "open". The themes were and are a great way to go and take photos which you might otherwise not take, the opens were great for pulling out that shot you loved but it didn't fit any of the themes. Of course, we have the requirement (one which I support) that the photo is taken during a prescribed period.

I have forgotten my point. Just raving now.

[Glen]

Greg, you have brought up an interesting thought, the unthemed comp. That could be when a winner wants to make the comp really hard, as I think that is harder. Great thought.

[redline]

Congrats to Rokkstar and Glen for taking out the top prizes,
and to all who submitted work they're all class acts.

[leek]

Leek, the other advantage of an early entry is everyone knows you thought of the idea and hopefully will mark accordingly. Eg if I saw another half underwater shot like Killa's (the first entry), I would have viewed that as a copy with lack of originality, and marked accordingly.

True - didn't think of that... BTW, Killa shared his method with us on Saturday and I think he should share it here too... It did not involve an underwater housing as many have assumed...

[Greg B]

I thought no entries were to be available for viewing until the comp was closed.

[MHD]

You can see all entries before the comp closes...

Just not allowed to comment on them or reveal which one is yours...

[Greg B]

I think it would be preferable to wait until the comp closes before any images could be seen. There could be no suggestion of using someone else'e idea (if the same idea came up twice, which it might, we would know that it wasn't due to copying).

I can't see any benefit in having images available for viewing while the comp was open - in fact I can't think of any competition where this would be done.

cheers

[MHD]

I'm happy to debate this, this does not have to be decided until entries open (end of the month)

[phillipb]

I agree with Greg, Seeing early entries doesn't achieve anything. Much fairer specially to the early entries if they were all posted at once. I'm sure it would alleviate the last minute entry problem.

Edit: Just adding one more thing, if this approach was used, I think a longer voting period would be in order.

[johndec]

I concur. I think it would be best for all entries to be kept under wraps until the voting period starts. All entries should have the same "impact". Did I vote higher for earlier entries because I'd had time to know and love them, or did I vote them down because I was sick of the sight of them?

I tried to do neither, but subconsciously ?????

[Glen]

Johndec, so you are the bugger who voted me down because you were sick of the sight of it. I could be using a 50 1.4 now! (hope you enjoy it, Rockstar, you deserve it)

[W00DY]

Edit: Just adding one more thing, if this approach was used, I think a longer voting period would be in order.

Very good point.

I also agree that submissions should only be shown when the voting starts.

In regards to comments is it an idea to make it so that you can only place a vote if you leave a comment??? (Probably to much changes needed for Scott though!!!)

W00DY

[johndec]

Johndec, so you are the bugger who voted me down because you were sick of the sight of it. I could be using a 50 1.4 now! (hope you enjoy it, Rockstar, you deserve it)

Well Glen you obviously weren't thinking ahead. Now a 1.4 is going to cost you $400, whereas you could have bribed me to up my vote for half that amount

Seriously, I can't remember how I voted on every entry but I'm pretty sure that you can lay the blame elsewhere

[Glen]

I'll remember that Johndec

[Glen]

Just thought at one point we should say thanks to Louie K & Birddog 114 for donating both of the prizes for this challenge. Thanks guys, most appreciated

[birddog114]

Will Rockstar bring up shooting subject when he receive the first prize on Saturday? if not we may put his prize on pending status
If yes, I'll announce the prize for the next challenge on Saturday as well.

[rokkstar]

Totally right Glen

A big thank you very much for the donated prizes, they were what spurred us all on I'm sure.
Very very gratefully received and very much appreciated.

Many thanks again.

Matt

[rokkstar]

Will Rockstar bring up shooting subject when he receive the first prize on Saturday? if not we may put his prize on pending status
If yes, I'll announce the prize for the next challenge on Saturday as well.

Well Birdodg, I have a subject that I have run past Scott so as long as he is cool with it then I have no porblems announcing it.

[Glen]

Sounds good, is the next challenge over 2 months as well? Can past winners and placers enter?

[MHD]

Challenge 4 Dates:
Entries valid from: As soon as Rockstar announces Theme and Blurb at Minimeet this weekend
Submission open(entries will not be shown): April 1st
Submission closed, entries visable, voting starts: Midnight 30th april
Voting closes: 6th may
Winner announced at a meet (hopefully a Canberra meet) that weekend (6,7th may)

And the next comp (5) is the BIG ONE!

[MHD]

And I see no problems with past winners and place getters entering (but then I am one )

[Greg B]

Scott, why such a short voting period? Is there any problem with having two weeks?

[birddog114]

Scott, why such a short voting period? Is there any problem with having two weeks?

Make it hot! few days for voting is great! leave it too long, it's cold as ice

[MCWB]

Submission open(entries will not be shown): April 1st

Sure, pull the other one! No shenanigans please!

[MHD]