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Hello, know there are coffee buffs in here, and wanted to cast the pick to pick any brains that may be able to help.

I am looking to get a coffee machine for the studio, low volumes, average <10 shots per day. like something that automates the selection (espresso, cafe latte, cap etc). I dont need the "cup warmers" feature. perhaps one like a saeco with the water and beans on the back?

I have seen some in client kitchens that have a mini fridge next to them, but thinking since I have a bar fridge next to it, I would get one with those milk pickups that auto froth etc.

daily maintenance / cleaning with ease high on criteria, small budget too, so may need to trade off.

what can I get for;
1. $500
2. $1000
3. $1500

can I shop on line, or is this a "hardly normal" thing?

We have gone through a similar conundrum here: currently, we serve clients instant. Local 'cafes' serve Vittoria. Suffice it to say, there is no good coffee options available. We investigated the purchase of an espresso machine, but, with staff use, it would probably remain very dirty, breakdown and basically just produce crap coffee.

I suggested:

1. Get one or more plungers of various sizes.
2. Buy a decent but budget grinder (say one of those Sunbeam jobbers)
3. Buy a regular store of freshly roasted coffee beans. (Of course, you would need to get these from Sydney )
4. Make delicious plunger coffee which, whilst very different to espresso, will mitigate the very problems you would have with a fully auto machine (stale beans as they are housed in the machine; inability to adjust the grind; no control over tamp; high amount of electronics subject to breakdown; etc).

My personal view, as a self-proclaimed coffee snob/wanker is that I would rather have a great plunger coffee, with fresh beans rather than a crap espresso based drink with soup bubble-frothed milk.

Now, I may have misinterpreted your situation - the plunger option is more suited to a situation where you are sitting down with people. It may be less appropriate if individuals just want a single cup of coffee and having a 2+ cup plunger is impractical. For this, the one touch, super auto solution may be more appropriate, just realising that a large part of the cost of these machines is the electronics and the 'fully-auto' bit, not the actual coffee production. Therefore, for $500, you would get a machine that produces coffee a fraction as good as a more manual espresso machine of the same price.

That said, I don't use fully autos. I hope that has been of some help

I have had three Saeco machines. I think they make reasonable coffee for fully auto machines, but I do have reservations about their reliability. Saeco, to my understanding, have closed their service centres, and that was a major reason why I didn't buy one this time. I went to a proper espresso machine for my home, but I understand your reasons for preferring a fully auto machine.

If I were you, I would look at the Swiss-made Jura machines. They have a much better reputation for reliability, and they are much, much quieter than Saeco models. I know that Harvey Norman sell them, but you can also get some models on-line from Peters of Kensington.

The more money that you are prepared to spend, the better the machine will be. The Jura C5 is around the $1500 mark. You may not get one that froths milk for much less than that.

Good luck.

I have yet to receive a coffee from one of the auto machines that I would bother with any of them.
They are expensive for what you are getting and reliability is always an issue with anything combining electronics and steam.
Consider that cricketfan admits to have gone through three and now has a 'proper' machine.

You could certainly look at going for high quality beans, add a grinder and do french press... that doesn't give you expresso but does serve a number at a time.
Another alternative that you could consider might be a Presso... it's a manual expresso device... the downside is that it would be slow to serve a number of coffees.

Overall, assuming that this is to help impress Clients etc, I think french press, a grinder, good beans and a nice set of cups is likely to be the best way to go.

agree and thanks for the great feedback.

yes, its to have some aroma in the room, and a nice coffee for clients, its not for "smoko's".

hmmm, perhaps a kettle and a plunger.

are those "George Cloony" nespressor things ok, think I had some in the B&B in france last year...

Mj wrote:I have yet to receive a coffee from one of the auto machines that I would bother with any of them.
They are expensive for what you are getting and reliability is always an issue with anything combining electronics and steam.
Consider that cricketfan admits to have gone through three and now has a 'proper' machine.

I went through three in about 15 years.

If you have staff and or clients who are all going to make their own coffee, then a manual espresso machine may not suit, regardless of the fact that it can make better coffee. As we know, the grinding, tamping and frothing are all components of a good coffee, and people who have never used that type of machine, or those who are unused to it will be unlikely to be able to make even an acceptable coffee. And, someone has to clean up.

With a fully auto machine, the coffee is reasonable if not exceptional. But you have the added advantage of allowing anyone to make their own coffee just by pressing a button, and there is much less cleaning up to do.

Oz_Beachside wrote:are those "George Cloony" nespressor things ok, think I had some in the B&B in france last year...

We have a Nespresso (the first machine they did from about 7 or 8 years ago - still going strong) and while it's definately not a "professional" cup of coffe, it's still pretty good. I'd put them between plunger and "proper" espresso for taste.

They are very easy to use, quick to make and easy to clean. WAY easier and more convenient than the alternatives. The pods are also easy to store for long periods as well (which might be good for the studio)

The coffee snobs will sneer but it is actually a pretty good cup of coffee.

dviv wrote:

Oz_Beachside wrote:are those "George Cloony" nespressor things ok, think I had some in the B&B in france last year...

We have a Nespresso (the first machine they did from about 7 or 8 years ago - still going strong) and while it's definately not a "professional" cup of coffe, it's still pretty good. I'd put them between plunger and "proper" espresso for taste.

They are very easy to use, quick to make and easy to clean. WAY easier and more convenient than the alternatives. The pods are also easy to store for long periods as well (which might be good for the studio)

The coffee snobs will sneer but it is actually a pretty good cup of coffee.

thanks, agree, its good taste, and thats all I need, as cleanup is more important in this instance. also I like the idea of not having the grinder buzz for its 90 seconds of glory, some find it as pleasant as nails on a slate black board.

I think the pods will store well, as volume does not justify a new ground bag every week.

dviv wrote:I'd put them between plunger and "proper" espresso for taste.

See, I don't necessarily think that plunger coffee is less tasty or inferior to espresso. It will give you a signficantly different taste to espresso - where espresso is more acidic (in the good way), plunger can provide more body.

Also, the aroma of coffee in an office environment won't come so much from the espresso, but from the grinding of the beans, as this releases a number of the aromatics caught in the bean.

I agree that the sound of a grinder is about as pleasant as Shannon Noll!

I think it is generally accepted that a full manual/semi-auto espresso machine is out of the question for an office style environment - they are less forgiving than a fully auto, and therefore require a lot more 'training' to get the best out of it.

At the end of the day, it's a compromise:

Plunger:

Probably better (but different) coffee than fully auto.
Ease of cleanup.
No electronics to go wrong.
Beautiful aroma.
No ability for frothed milk.
Needs a noisy grinder or pre-ground coffee (and associated issues of staleness).
Lack of consistancy due human involvement.
Low cost - potentially 1/50th of the cost of a fully auto.
If plunger breaks, get a new one for a few dollars.

Fully - Auto/Nespresso

One touch.
Ease of clean
Fully-Auto has noisy grinder, nespresso doesn't.
Nespresso = Nestle!= expensive pods (from what I understand)
Both will involve generally less than fresh coffee.
Potentially lack of consistancy due to constant process for changing beans/environment.
Reliability/electronics/expense
Bubbly frothed milk, not silky micro-foam milk.
If machine breaks (out of warranty!!!!) wait for service, be without machine for days/weeks/months!

If it was me, I know which option I would choose. But there are benefits and disadvantages to both. I am sure there are many, many people who are happy with fully autos for exactly those benefits.

When I was an IT contractor, I usually worked an (almost) endless series of short term contracts. Most offices I worked in had pretty bad coffee facilities and I never liked to loose focus by leaving the building in search of caeffine.

I decided to add a Nespresso machine to my toolbag, in fact it's probably more important than a laptop. I've bought my first Nespresso machine about 15 years ago and only recently disposed of it. I still have two others, one for work, one at home.

Sure the coffee is not to the standard of a well made espresso but it's a damn sight better than many alternatives including "proper" coffee from dodgy cafes or lunch bars. The ease of use, short preparation time and easy maintenance make it a huge plus in a working environment where there is rarely the time to do a proper coffee.

The capsules keep reasonably well and maintain a relative freshness for a while and it can be nice to have a variety of flavours on hand, stonger full flavoured stuff for me, lighter styles for the whuses and even the occaisional decaeff.

The coffee is reasonably priced at around 70c per pod, beans or grounds are cheaper but if you want the variety then you'll end up discarding stuff or using stale. Besides who wants 3 or 4 different jars of grounds in the fridge.

Reschsmooth wrote:[See, I don't necessarily think that plunger coffee is less tasty or inferior to espresso. It will give you a signficantly different taste to espresso - where espresso is more acidic (in the good way), plunger can provide more body.

I agree, and I personally prefer plunger coffee to espresso by a long shot.

Not wanting to hijack the thread, but I'd like to hear where Sydney members are buying their beans from?

Cheers
Steffen.

Steffen wrote:Not wanting to hijack the thread, but I'd like to hear where Sydney members are buying their beans from?

When I only want a small amount, I get some from Pino's cafe in Crows Nest (the one on Clark St, I think). They use Kamee and I really like the blend.

If I am in the city, I will get some from Mecca Cafe on King St (under the Grace Hotel). I think they use Rio or someone.

If I order 1kg or more, I tend to go for Coffee Alchemy. Hazel (the roaster) is a former Aussie Barista Champ and a mean roaster.

Otherwise, I roast my own!

There is no denying that the type of machine that Patrick, et al use are superb. But I had to make a decision on ease of use. I ended up buying a Francis Francis and using pods from Saquella. The pods are nitrogen sealed and the two that I like are the Espresso and Giava Gugu.

So what your really after is an entry in the 'Crema Challenge Revisited' and a Tax write off ....

I have had three Saeco machines. I think they make reasonable coffee for fully auto machines, but I do have reservations about their reliability. Saeco, to my understanding, have closed their service centres, and that was a major reason why I didn't buy one this time.

I have a saeco incanto digital both at work and at home. works great, around $1500. doesnt break down, but does need regular ( say every 12-18 months) servicing. I get it done at a place in lance cove (premier coffee i thing from memory).

I have two because i sent the first one back to saeco to get repaired under warranty. they couldnt fix it, so they replaced it. a month later the shop we got it from rang me up to come and get our machine as it had been fixed. i didnt complain !


Foe beans, out in the Hills district I go to Pine Tea and Coffee at Castle Hill. A more more then usual costs, but huge variety, and many awards. Also , it smells great if u get there while they are roasting....

Steffen wrote:
I agree, and I personally prefer plunger coffee to espresso by a long shot.

Not wanting to hijack the thread, but I'd like to hear where Sydney members are buying their beans from?

Cheers
Steffen.

Depending on your tastes, I find Toby's Estate single origin "Colombia Supremo" quite good for french press / plunger. It's got lots of body without being too coarse.

re coffee machine servicing, especially for but not limited to Saeco

premier products
unit 16/ 12 mars rd
lane cove
ph. 9420 2007
premierproducts.com.au

no affiliation etc

It is better to have drink machine or coffee machine to our studio because it can make us relax or refresh our mind.


_________________
Vending Machines

I made mention in another thread to the Nespresso. Well, I got rid of the Francis Francis and purchased the DeLonghi Nespresso Cube. Along with the Nespresso I also got the Aerocinno.

OK, I know that there are quite a few coffee aficionados on this forum but as the word states its about knowledge and enthusiasm. Did I see the word taste in there

My take on the benefits of the Nespresso system: fast, clean but pricey.

With the Aerocinno one can produce beautiful smooth and silky frothed milk for the simple cappucino or latte with a head. Simple to use and takes around one minute.

The coffee: I have read on both this forum and others about the beauty of roasting your own coffee and blending. Luckily with the Nespresso this has been done for you. Roasted, blended and sealed in capsules very quickly to retain the original taste. Roast it yourself everytime you want a coffee? If you roast and store the coffee it will oxidise very quickly thereby losing the benefit of a fresh roast.

The Nespresso system has all types of coffee from lungo to espresso. My favourites are the new Indriya (retains notes of pepper, nutmeg and cloves) through to Arpeggio (intense, grilled notes alongside woody and subtle cocoa notes).

It may not be the best system in the world but my guests have all attested to how good my coffees are

i would seriously recommend an aeropress machine from aerobie. i bought one a few months ago and haven't had coffee that good out of any other type of machine.

as a bonus it's cheap, easy to use, makes all types of coffee and is really quick to use and clean.

to use it, you put a filter in the bottom, add a scoop of coffee, put it on your cup and pour in hot water to the line, give it a stir and then push the plunger down. it uses Air pressure to force the water through the coffee and it comes out very smooth.

you can get them online or for about $60 at DiBarolli's in bondi junction.

http://www.aeropress.com.au/

definitely worth a try!

If you roast and store the coffee it will oxidise very quickly thereby losing the benefit of a fresh roast

Gotta store it for about a week to develop the flavour. plus roasting your own beans is cool...gives a sense of almost complete achievement!

aeropress machine

agreed good device

biggerry wrote:

If you roast and store the coffee it will oxidise very quickly thereby losing the benefit of a fresh roast

Gotta store it for about a week to develop the flavour. plus roasting your own beans is cool...gives a sense of almost complete achievement!

Some coffees need about 3 days to release the CO2 which also keeps oxygen away from the beans. If used too quickly after the roasting, the extracted espresso will be too gassy and "bright", which doesn't appeal to most.

Some beans are best after a week, some require less time. If stored properly, roasted beans can last a couple of weeks before going stale. Proper storage does not include refrigeration or freezing.

The aeropress looks like a reasonable way to make coffee, but I think I would prefer a simple plunger if I didn't have my espresso machine.

The best coffee is going to be one that you like. I have Faema E98. I love it. Makes the best coffee, because it's my machine and it makes them the way I like them made.
My old work had a Gaggia Semi automatic (which I gave them) This machine ground the beans and "coughed" out a nice brew. But I always found myself cleaning the thing at the end of a day. Since I left they have had to have the machine serviced because no one cleaned it. This cost them over $600.
I find myself working a lot at Darling Harbor Convention Centre these days, and they recently purchased 15 "wizz bang" machines that grind, brew, froth and put out the most disgusting coffee I have ever tasted! But others love it.

As far as beans go, join another forum called Coffee Snobs http://www.coffeesnobs.com.au/ These guys know their stuff and you can buy green or roasted beans. I have bought from them many times.

You will also get some good advice about machines on this site as well. It's very similar to here!!

As far as beans go, join another forum called Coffee Snobs http://www.coffeesnobs.com.au/ These guys know their stuff and you can buy green or roasted beans. I have bought from them many times.

Beanbay is good..

if you think roasting is too hard, think again, its like switching onto the 'M' on your camera. Opens up a brand new world of coffee and all you need is a heat gun and a breadmaker...even just a heat gun

check out http://www.cremamagazine.com.au/ also

Studio Progetti is all about a passionate and creative approach toward the key features a cutting-edge espresso coffee machine should excel in and to the utilities it should deliver – quality coffee brewing and eye-catching, stunning design.


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Vending machines

ardave wrote:Studio Progetti is all about a passionate and creative approach toward the key features a cutting-edge espresso coffee machine should excel in and to the utilities it should deliver – quality coffee brewing and eye-catching, stunning design.

And exceptional image quality.

Dave,

Welcome.

Please comply with our forum rules and ensure that you put a meaningful location into your profile.

Do you have any sort of commercial connection with Studio Progetti?

Gary, given Dave's post is entirely a 'cut and paste' job from Sprogetti's homepage, I think the answer to your question is implied at least if not obvious.

Having had a quick look, the machines look like nothing more than E-61 group head without any description of the boiler/pump system.

Oz_Beachside wrote:agree and thanks for the great feedback.

yes, its to have some aroma in the room, and a nice coffee for clients, its not for "smoko's".

hmmm, perhaps a kettle and a plunger.

are those "George Cloony" nespressor things ok, think I had some in the B&B in france last year...

We have got one of the Nespresso machines in the office and use it very regular, it is very easy to use and doesn't make a mess.

The coffe tastes very nice as well and you have got the choice of 12 different coffees which comes in handy for clients with all sorts of tastebuds.

I can only recommend it.

Reschsmooth wrote:Gary, given Dave's post is entirely a 'cut and paste' job from Sprogetti's homepage, I think the answer to your question is implied at least if not obvious.

Having had a quick look, the machines look like nothing more than E-61 group head without any description of the boiler/pump system.

Thanks, Patrick.

I'll give Dave another day or so to fully clarify his position before I take any action. His embedded link, as well as his wording, looked suspicious to me, hence my question.

Coincidentally, I was reading an interesting thread on Mumbrella yesterday about a local PR firm that is going to start charging its customers for the service of going onto people's blogs and making posts similar to this one. The brief is that they would create fake a persona and then make an "authoritative" post under the fake persona, providing a link to the (paying) clients' websites. there would be no declaration of interest. The thread enjoyed some quite heated discussion, with the majority of the participants declaring that they felt this was not a desirable concept.

My personal PoV is that this is sleaze of the lowest order: they're starting with a fake identity, covering up their vested interest, and then trying to solicit traffic (and sales) through what is, at a level, deceptive means.

From a conceptual level, I see this as a very poor way to garner business: how in the hell do they expect to generate a long standing business relationship when they're starting by lying?

gstark wrote:My personal PoV is that this is sleaze of the lowest order: they're starting with a fake identity, covering up their vested interest, and then trying to solicit traffic (and sales) through what is, at a level, deceptive means.

From a conceptual level, I see this as a very poor way to garner business: how in the hell do they expect to generate a long standing business relationship when they're starting by lying?

I agree, and as an independent, fee-only financia.............

Why should they get free advertising when others can't?

....... I will keep quite for 2- 2k vac packed fresh grind coffee packs...... no, make that 3, 2k packs and I will be very quite......

What's coffee?

There is no finesse these days in the PR world and most PR people believe that they sit on the right hand of God

sirhc55 wrote:There is no finesse these days in the PR world

Chris,

Have I misunderstood you here? You seem to be suggesting that, at some point in the distant past, there may have been some?

Potoroo wrote:What's coffee?

Tea now, or as it should be called... Ambriosia mmm!

Mr Darcy wrote:

Potoroo wrote:What's coffee?

Tea now, or as it should be called... Ambriosia mmm!

I didn't realise there was such a lack of knowledge regarding one of the most consumed beverages in the world. For the under-informed, please refer to this site.

Reschsmooth wrote:

Mr Darcy wrote:

Potoroo wrote:What's coffee?

Tea now, or as it should be called... Ambriosia mmm!

I didn't realise there was such a lack of knowledge regarding one of the most consumed beverages in the world. For the under-informed, please refer to this site.

[rant]
Sorry. It's not lack of knowledge. It is bitter experience.
Coffee, like many addictive substances is a poison. I USED to drink coffee. One day I just stopped, for no reason I can fathom, half way through a cup. I didn't touch the toxin for another six months. When I did, a lot of little things that were wrong with my body suddenly came back. I hadn't even realised they had gone away until they returned. It was the coffee that was causing them. And yes, it was good coffee. It took another five years to give up, and a further 10 before I was sure I actually had. Now, even a Tira Misu makes me nauseous.

My biggest issue with the concepts behind this thread is that the OP is trying to supply a "decent" cup of coffee for his clients. I'll wager that if the client wants tea or a tisane, the best he will get is a teabag. One of the great marketing swindles of the 20th Century. Even the quality ones available in Europe pale in comparison to a properly brewed cuppa.
Even though it takes only a few minutes, and little trouble to make one.
[/rant]

Patrick, green coffee may be the second largest ‘commodity’ traded in the world but it is not one of the most consumed beverages. I would hazard a guess and say that water would be just a wee bit higher on the list plus tea and perhaps beer, wine, coke et al

Greg, just like peanuts may affect some people and not others the same could be said for coffee

How about suggestions for a frozen marguerita machine for the studio?

gstark wrote:How about suggestions for a frozen marguerita machine for the studio?

I love frozen margueritas, and it would definitel help the models and photographers loosen up.

Alpha_7 wrote:

gstark wrote:How about suggestions for a frozen marguerita machine for the studio?

I love frozen margueritas, and it would definitel help the models and photographers loosen up.

I like that suggestion!

It might loosen them up but they would not warm up on a frozen drink

The BEST coffee machines are those nesspersso ones that use the PODS. we have 4 of them between the family. simple, consistant, quick and VERY tasty.

sirhc55 wrote:Patrick, green coffee may be the second largest ‘commodity’ traded in the world but it is not one of the most consumed beverages. I would hazard a guess and say that water would be just a wee bit higher on the list plus tea and perhaps beer, wine, coke et al

Greg, just like peanuts may affect some people and not others the same could be said for coffee

My information was not based on any reliable souce, but a recollection of something I had read. That said, I did say it was "one of" the most consumed beverages.

I am not sure what Greg was referring to about "great marketing swindles", but discussing it would take this thread too far off topic.

Chasem, what makes the Nespresso machines the capital-letter "best"?

Reschsmooth wrote:

sirhc55 wrote:Patrick, green coffee may be the second largest ‘commodity’ traded in the world but it is not one of the most consumed beverages. I would hazard a guess and say that water would be just a wee bit higher on the list plus tea and perhaps beer, wine, coke et al

Greg, just like peanuts may affect some people and not others the same could be said for coffee

My information was not based on any reliable souce, but a recollection of something I had read. That said, I did say it was "one of" the most consumed beverages.

I am not sure what Greg was referring to about "great marketing swindles", but discussing it would take this thread too far off topic.

Chasem, what makes the Nespresso machines the capital-letter "best"?

I use the Nespresso and do like the convenience and taste. Having said that, I believe coffee is like everything else in life. We all have our own interpretation of taste along with likes and dislikes. A few years ago I would leap in the car and go to a little coffee bar in Manly at six in the morning for a hit of coffee that was to die for. Upon taking a friend there they wondered what I was on about

sirhc55 wrote:I use the Nespresso and do like the convenience and taste. Having said that, I believe coffee is like everything else in life. We all have our own interpretation of taste along with likes and dislikes. A few years ago I would leap in the car and go to a little coffee bar in Manly at six in the morning for a hit of coffee that was to die for. Upon taking a friend there they wondered what I was on about

Indubitably. I have heard of people who prefer the taste of instant over a properly extracted shot. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Hello, know there are coffee buffs in here, and wanted to cast the pick to pick any brains that may be able to help.

I am looking to get a coffee machine for the studio, low volumes, average <10 shots per day. like something that automates the selection (espresso, cafe latte, cap etc). I dont need the "cup warmers" feature. perhaps one like a saeco with the water and beans on the back?

Are you still looking for a coffee machine for your studio? That would be great! You can find it in google. Just try to search about coffee vending machines.

danderson wrote:

Hello, know there are coffee buffs in here, and wanted to cast the pick to pick any brains that may be able to help.

I am looking to get a coffee machine for the studio, low volumes, average <10 shots per day. like something that automates the selection (espresso, cafe latte, cap etc). I dont need the "cup warmers" feature. perhaps one like a saeco with the water and beans on the back?

Are you still looking for a coffee machine for your studio? That would be great! You can find it in google. Just try to search about coffee vending machines.

You wouldn't be in the business of coffee vending machines, would you?

danderson wrote:

Hello, know there are coffee buffs in here, and wanted to cast the pick to pick any brains that may be able to help.

I am looking to get a coffee machine for the studio, low volumes, average <10 shots per day. like something that automates the selection (espresso, cafe latte, cap etc). I dont need the "cup warmers" feature. perhaps one like a saeco with the water and beans on the back?

Are you still looking for a coffee machine for your studio? That would be great! You can find it in google. Just try to search about coffee vending machines.

Please take careful note that your attempt at illegal advertising on this site is in no way welcome, nor is it appreciated. You need to read our forum rules and FAQ without delay.

I have deleted your signature from your profile, and any attempt by you to replace it will not be treated lightly.

Please accept this as your first, final, and only warning.

Ok, some interesting replies.

I know you want something that does everything and cleans itself too, but when you get into those machines, you have the problem of too many mechanisms that can and more than likely will go wrong.

My first coffee machine was a $89 Sunbeam, it made over 1500 cups before crapping out on me, and to be perfectly honest they were generally to a high standard. And i do consider myself to be extremely fussy when it comes to coffee.

My next machine will be a Sunbeam Cafe Series also, its around $650 to $750 depending where you shop, there is a model that has a grinder in the top and makes top quality coffee, the only thing is you'll have to froth your own milk, which in my honest opinion is the best option, coz once you learn to do it properly (which is a cinch), you'll noticed a marked difference between that and machine frothed.

for the sake of 10 cups a day, i'd do it all myself, you'll get the hang of it in no time and it wont be a time issue, i would get a sunbeam cafe series, that just makes coffee and has a steam and water spout. nice and simple, the fewer gadgets the better.
buy a separate grinder, or buy good fresh coffee pre-ground, or ground for you on the spot.
this way, if the grinder or milk frother or whatever else they come with these days dies on you, you're not waiting to get your machine back from repairers.


That's my 2 cents.