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This image caused a stir over at DPR (which doesn't take much!!) and I would like the thoughts of members about the ethics of taking such a shot.



I feel that it is a beautiful image of the young woman and as it does not demean her in any way, its ethical to place it in my online gallery.

Your thoughts on the subject would be appreciated.

Cheers
Sheila

Sheila - I think you summed it all with mention of the other forum.

This is a beautiful contemplative portrait of a young lady executed with taste and decorum. The answer is - yes show it

Sheila,

In my opinion it is a beautifully executed shot of a beautiful subject. Conveys the atmosphere well. I can't see what could have caused the stir apart from being envious of getting such a shot!!

Alex

Sheila - this is a truely stunning image. There is absolutely nothing unethical about showing it on your gallery! I'm still excited that you are here on our forum

the lighting is just perfect for the mood.
I don't find anything unethical about it.
maybe if i knew the story behind the sadness i might feel it was unethical but people who view the pic online would not know the background so they would not think it unethical either.

just my thoughts.

still a great pic

We've had a few heated discussions here in the past too Sheila... However, I believe that the general concensus on this forum would be that this image is fine...
It's very unlikely that any harm could come from showing it...
A beautiful shot...

Alex wrote:Sheila,

In my opinion it is a beautifully executed shot of a beautiful subject. Conveys the atmosphere well. I can't see what could have caused the stir apart from being envious of getting such a shot!!

Alex

Ditto, love the shot, actually I've spent the last 10 minutes engrossed in your galleries, love your faces and candids you seem to have a knack at capturing the 'special' moment and also creating a strong connection between subject and the viewer. I haven't even got to the wildlife, or any of the landscape stuff yet, but the gallery thumbnails look just as impressive.

Sheila,
The image is fine with me and nicely to express its nature.
We don't speak the same language as DPR. Sorry!

Sheila only one word describes it "fantastic".

What a capture.

Hi Sheila, firstly welcome to the forums.

I came across this image from your post to that other forum too. I didn't return there to catch up with the controversy, but that's another issue that shouldn't cloud this wonderful pic.

My initial impression was that it was a posed shot. As the lighting and contrast hits the subject just perfectly. For it to be a candid shot just illustrate that you have an artistic eye and managed to capture the moment, and captured it well. It is a gorgeous image in so many ways (great illustration of B&W, and I'm not usually a fan of B&W images) and brings together so many factors that makes it so beautiful. Not the least of which is the human subject.

Excellent photo, Shelia! Nothing unethical in my opinion. It'd be a real shame if this image were not captured because of ethical concerns. Beautifully done.

It's a lovely photo Sheila, and to answer your question, it's fine to put it on your website. You have captured it very well and it does not demean her in anyway, in fact it's quite flattering.

Welcome to the forum and looking forward to meeting you in the early morning shoot next weekend.

Always contentious Shiela and I don't ever think the issue will be resolved except in the minds of individuals as they make their own compromises or not.

Regarding the image I believe, as do others here, it stands on its own merits and a flattering shot to boot. It's a beautifully crafted image softly lit well exposed and deserving of a place on yoour website which I have had opportunity to view and find terrific.

By the way Congratulations on winning the Black and White competition with some excellent, strongly composed images.
cheers
marco

Sheila,
A question for you. I notice in your pbase gallery and inparticular your portrait gallery you have many of your subjects looking directly at the camera. How do you ask them for their permission to photograph them? I am very interested to hear your reply .

beautiful capture of the young lady, the pose and the lighting are top quality!

Did she know you had taken the capture?

Sheila, a very eloquent image. I beleive the image would be both legal and ethically correct in Australia. If I had the opportunity after the fact I would ask the individual involved if they gave consent which may affect what I did with it. I would assume most would be pleased with that shot of themselves.

Sheila,

As others have said, this is a beautiful image, well exposed, nicely captured, perfectly focussed, and of a beautiful subject.

The only issue I would have wrt placing this image in an onlinbe gallery (or anywhere else) were if I were doing so on a "for profit" basis, in which case I'd be looking for either (or both) a clearance from the subject, and perhaps some form of compensation for the subject.

But given that your on-line gallery -or, specifically, the display of this image - is not a for-profit venture, those isses do not come into play.

Welcome to our forum: please enjoy yourself and please, also, show us some more of your images.

Sheila
What is the controversy about. That you took the image without the permission of the subject? How else could you have got this shot? If you had asked permission then it would have been a different picture and this one would have been lost for all eternity.

Geoff wrote:Sheila,
A question for you. I notice in your pbase gallery and inparticular your portrait gallery you have many of your subjects looking directly at the camera. How do you ask them for their permission to photograph them? I am very interested to hear your reply .

Many of the portrait shots are buskers or their friends who do not mind their snap taken. Others are family or relations. Others I have model releases for (after the event!) but a couple of recent snaps were taken with an angle finder - Zigview to be precise. This allows me to take the image without pointing the camera at the subject. My brother in law bought it for me from the UK and its quite a handy thing to have! Below is one of the first shots I took with this gadget.

I also used an Optikvervelab filter which gives the image a very constrasty look (which I quite like for shots such as this but this would not work with the shot of the young woman as its too harsh). It does take some getting used to but I am getting the hang of it

As you have all realised by now that I DO like mono. Both of these shots were taken with the superb Canon 135 f/2 L.

Cheers
Sheila

Matt. K wrote:Sheila
What is the controversy about. That you took the image without the permission of the subject? How else could you have got this shot? If you had asked permission then it would have been a different picture and this one would have been lost for all eternity.

Exactly Matt. Here is the thread at DPR.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read. ... e=16643522

Actually, it does make interesting reading. There were two definite camps. Those who thought it was wrong and the majority who thought it was fine. What amused me somewhat was the comment from the guy from New York who said I would get into trouble for posting this image if the server was in NY That a great deal of porn sites emanate out of New York was possibly lost on him. I've always maintained that a lot of Americans have an irony deficiency
Cheers
Sheila

Sheila,
As said earlier: we're on this forum and we speak difference language

Sheila - firstly welcome to the forum

I have drawn to this image several times, and honestly can not see what all the fuss is about.

IMHO great mono and lighting on the subject is truly superb for the mood being conveyed.

Sheila,

I have not seen any of the fuss on other forums but what was the fuss about? Please E-mail or PM me if you like if your busy I won't be offended, I'm just puzzled to what the fuss was about.

Mark

Hudo wrote:Sheila,

I have not seen any of the fuss on other forums but what was the fuss about? Please E-mail or PM me if you like if your busy I won't be offended, I'm just puzzled to what the fuss was about.

Mark

Hi Mark

See the above link to the DPR thread.

Cheers
Sheila

Sheila

Welcome. Candids by their very nature work best when the subject is unawares. This image is one I'm sure the subject would be proud to have displayed. I see no big deal unless, as Gary said it becomes a for profit issue. I wouldn't lose sleep over anyhting said on DPR

I don't know and understand why should we discuss about DPR on this board?

Of course, everyone has his/ her own view on a photo and if you're a photographer, just happy or ignoring with the outcome if you like or don't like, and it's your photos and your decision to take it.

I don't see it is a message for you to pay lot of attention if you think you're right, DPR is another forum and have their own viewing policies among their members.

Also this site is not a relief site which for members bring other issues from other forum overhere and want the opinion from members onboard.

OK, Thanks Sheila. A can of worms however your not exploiting and it's a nice image. No worse than a news crew capturing you on TV at the footy while your mean't to be at work lol..

Mark

Firstly, a warm welcome to you, Sheila. Your galleries are beautiful and very inspirational. I look forward to any further shots you chose to post here.

Regarding this image...

I am very conflicted about this "issue" of candids..... on the one hand I simply love images like this, which I agree absolutely could not be caught any other way than candidly - it would totally change the "tension"/atmoshphere if someone is aware/posing. As a photographer (albeit a very poor one), I would hate for this style of photography to be more regulated or worse, banned.

However on the other hand, I struggle with my personal feelings about being photographed - ie I HATE IT ( ). I know, it's irrational and unreasonable, but I can't help it. It's actually one of the reasons I became interested in photography in the first place - I would always offer to be the one that took the group photo, so that I didn't have to be in it!!

So, I would absolutely hate to think that a candid photo of me was somewhere on the web. And that's what I think about when I am tempted to take candid shots of people. And I guess that's why I don't have many totally candid shots; and probably none close up/identifiable.

If the person is aware that you have a camera and therefore might take a photo, then at least they can turn their back (as I often do) or whatever. And if they are totally unaware, but are a tiny figure in the corner of a wider scene, then again, I don't feel that they can be identified individually. So I am less worried about those situations.

Please don't take this as criticism of *you* having done this - I am really just thinking aloud. As I said, I am torn. I love them, but would hate one of *me*. If someone did take one of me, I would absolutely want them to let me know and give me the option to delete it. And having said all that, I would still be SO proud to take a shot like this myself!! It is a truly stunning image.

So, I go in circles.

Thank you for raising this topic - it is very interesting to hear different points of view (on any issue). I am sure I am in the minority on this one, and that's fine. Reading the other thread, I actually thought that the discussion stayed fairly civil for once - considering the location, at least!!

Anyway, welcome again and thanks for sharing a beautiful image.

Cheers

Edit: Just wanted to clarify, in case my listed "location" was misleading, that although I have recently moved to the Middle East, I am Australian and my thoughts are not at all related to any local politics/ religions etc. Just in case. Cheers.

Birddog114 wrote:I don't know and understand why should we discuss about DPR on this board?

Of course, everyone has his/ her own view on a photo and if you're a photographer, just happy or ignoring with the outcome if you like or don't like, and it's your photos and your decision to take it.

I don't see it is a message for you to pay lot of attention if you think you're right, DPR is another forum and have their own viewing policies among their members.

Also this site is not a relief site which for members bring other issues from other forum overhere and want the opinion from members onboard.

Point taken. I would not normally post links but folk asked what the fuss was about. I am suitably chastised

Great shots Sheila . Inspirational .Been an admirer of your work for a while through pbase . Your candids ,Sydneyshots ,beach shots, in fact all them are top notch .Look forward to seeing more.

cyanide wrote:However on the other hand, I struggle with my personal feelings about being photographed - ie I HATE IT ( ). I know, it's irrational and unreasonable, but I can't help it.

I respect that you have that PoV.

But it's an issue that you, and you alone, have to come to terms with. Sorry.

Actually, I'm not all that sorry.

It's a part of the price that we pay for our freedoms in this society, and if we are prepared to venture out in public, then it's a simple fact that we will be seen by others while we are out there.

If we're able to be seen, then it's logical that we may also be photographed. And while, like you, I don't particularly like having my image taken, it's simply something that I have no control over whatsoever, and as such, I have to accept that if it happens, it happens, and I'll need to deal with it.

There are a great many things that are not within our control, and a part of dealing with those things is to accept that these things will happen and move on.

The primary point is that, if you're going to be taking candid images, to not do so in a manner that may spoil the situation or force yourself upon your subject, nor should you (generally) make images that might embarrass the subject of those images.

Please don't take this as criticism of *you* having done this - I am really just thinking aloud. As I said, I am torn. I love them, but would hate one of *me*. If someone did take one of me, I would absolutely want them to let me know and give me the option to delete it.

Again, you need to accept that this is something that is out of control, and for many people, it's a very difficult concept to grasp. It's really one reason why the divorce rate is so high, but that's a whole other ball of wax.

Accept that there are many issues that affect your life over which you exert no control (think about that next time you're stuck in a long line of traffic) and just move on.

Sheila Smart wrote:

Birddog114 wrote:I don't know and understand why should we discuss about DPR on this board?

Of course, everyone has his/ her own view on a photo and if you're a photographer, just happy or ignoring with the outcome if you like or don't like, and it's your photos and your decision to take it.

I don't see it is a message for you to pay lot of attention if you think you're right, DPR is another forum and have their own viewing policies among their members.

Also this site is not a relief site which for members bring other issues from other forum overhere and want the opinion from members onboard.

Point taken. I would not normally post links but folk asked what the fuss was about. I am suitably chastised

Don't be. There's no need.

I'ts often best to post a link as it saves people lots of searching.

The main thing to bear in mind is that we are not DPR, and we welcome discussions such as this, but we (try to) insist that people stick to the point of the discussion and discuss the topic at hand, rather than attack the person making the comment.

We value the fact that different people have different perspectives on all manner of issues, and that we're all entitled to express our PoV in a civil and professional manner.

If others do not share that perspective, then that's fine; respect the differencesand move on.

...

Love the second image too, btw, especially the high contrast - almost lithographic - treatment of it.

You make mention of the Optikvervelab filter in helping create this image; are we talking about a filter that you apply in PP, or are we discussing, as I suspect we may, a filter that filts on the front of your lenses?

Please tell me more about this filter.

Thanh,

Birddog114 wrote:I don't know and understand why should we discuss about DPR on this board?

I don't see that, in this thread, we're discussing DPR.

Sheila raised a thread on DPR as an example (and gave a reference to the thread in question) but asked a question about the ethics of making the photo displayed.

I have no problems whatsoever with that, nor this thread, nor the use of the original DPR thread as a point of reference. Otherwise, I suspect that we'd have major issues with any other reference to any, for instance, review of any camera that might be posted anywhere else on the web.

Oh, I agree - and I was not in any way intimating that others *needed* to deal with ANY of my (many ) neuroses. Whether you or anyone else respects it or not, well, absolutely I can't (and note I said also *shouldn't*) control that. And I will continue to hate it, and continue to deal with it, as it occurs.

Anyway, I realise I am contributing nothing of worth to this conversation so I shall get back to hiding inside so no-one accidentally photographs me... hehehe

Cheers

Gary,
My post related to Hudo question, I knew Hudo may not getting into who and why but I have the feeling this thread will get into the way which we don't want to see.

Hudo wrote:Sheila,

I have not seen any of the fuss on other forums but what was the fuss about? Please E-mail or PM me if you like if your busy I won't be offended, I'm just puzzled to what the fuss was about.

Mark

and while people are dicussing about her questions in the last two pages and I don't see it as any problems with both sides, but hate to drag this discussion deeper into issues & problems on DPR.

My post is just want to isolate her questions into the boundary of this site and we talk about its nature from her photos, not related to the thread on DPR.

Sheila, I really do like the second image, I do not usually fancy B&W much, but yours are just stunning.

You make mention of the Optikvervelab filter in helping create this image; are we talking about a filter that you apply in PP, or are we discussing, as I suspect we may, a filter that filts on the front of your lenses?

Please tell me more about this filter.

Its not actually a filter as such but a plug in which can be used in Photoshop. The filter is a freebie and can be found here http://www.optikvervelabs.com/

All the "filters" are completely adjustable - if you don't like the effect, you can tone it down by going to Edit etc etc. One of the filters I use is "Character" in the black and white section. Its PC only I'm afraid - I don't know if they are going to bring out a Mac version.

Cheers
Sheila

Birddog114 wrote:Gary,
My post related to Hudo question,

Thanh,

My apologies, and thanx for the clarification.

Sheila,

Sheila Smart wrote:

You make mention of the Optikvervelab filter in helping create this image; are we talking about a filter that you apply in PP, or are we discussing, as I suspect we may, a filter that filts on the front of your lenses?

Please tell me more about this filter.

Its not actually a filter as such but a plug in which can be used in Photoshop. The filter is a freebie and can be found here http://www.optikvervelabs.com/

All the "filters" are completely adjustable - if you don't like the effect, you can tone it down by going to Edit etc etc. One of the filters I use is "Character" in the black and white section. Its PC only I'm afraid - I don't know if they are going to bring out a Mac version.

Many thanx for the elaboration.

I'll need to download and play with this a little.

No need for them to worry about a Mac version though.

Gary, AFAIK Leigh has these and uses them - so no need for the DL

wot a top shot for a Sheila

I c no prob with takin ppls pix, as long as u respect there privacy. Id probly aks them if i thort about it at the time tho.

Those dpr ppl are dweebs

Wally

wally wrote:Those dpr ppl are dweebs

Many of our members come from, and post regularly, on DPR.

Please keep your comments to the issues at hand, and refrain from making personal ones.

Sheila,
that is a stunning image. I have spent much of the afternoon purusing your gallery and am truly impressed. Please continue to share your work here and be flattered by the controversy that it can create.

Steve

Sheila,
I am deeply offended by both images. They make me feel sooo inadequate as a photographer...

Cheers
Steffen.

Situation is simple as far as I can see:

* People who aren't photographers will say it is wrong.
* People who are photographers will argue about it.
* People who work in the media will say it is always right.

Fact is, you didn't break any laws so what you shoot or do not shoot is up to your own discretion. Other people's opinions don't really come into this particular equation.

Had a quick peek at your images from a link through this site and have it bookmarked to return at a later date.
You seem to have some very good pics on display!

Oh, DPR, you wouldn't believe the joy when I found this site so I could get away from that one!

Two thumbs up with the capture Great shot.

gstark wrote:Wally

wally wrote:Those dpr ppl are dweebs

Many of our members come from, and post regularly, on DPR.

Please keep your comments to the issues at hand, and refrain from making personal ones.

sorry gary dint mean 2 offend the nice ppl here who may be members there

cyanide wrote:Anyway, I realise I am contributing nothing of worth to this conversation so I shall get back to hiding inside so no-one accidentally photographs me... hehehe

Cheers

Rae... where are all the stunning new photos you promised us from your new location ???????

Share Share Share...

Situation is simple as far as I can see:
* People who aren't photographers will say it is wrong.
* People who are photographers will argue about it.
* People who work in the media will say it is always right.

* People who believe in freedom may not like it, but will accept and defend it.

Sheila, nice images - especially the shot of the man. However the blown out part at the bottom of the beard is a little distracting to my eye. I find candid photography fascinating, but so far I haven't found the courage to wield a DSLR in public. Good work!

Shiela, I am not even going to give the politics a thought.

It is, quite simply, a great shot.