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Hi,

While PPing some NEF files last night, I noticed that when I opened a NEF file in NC most photos looked much sharper than those opened with ACR in PS. Is it because NC applies parameters tagged to NEF files, such as sharpening or is there more to know? Because of this difference I now do the initial conversion in NC and open the resulting JPG or TIFF in PS CS for fine tuning.

Thanks
Alex

Alex,

That is an interesting one. If in-camera sharpening is turned on, it will probably be as you say. If your camera indicates "0 Normal" (default) sharpening in Optimise Image, it is on - "none" is right at the bottom of the list. Fairly easy to get caught by this one - the zero would normally mean none, but not when it comes to cameras. Best turned off with NEF. Were you comparing the images side by side at 100%?

Cheers

Matt

From my own experiences, I prefer to open the NEFs in NC, change WB, Exp. Comp etc... then use the import to Photoshop button. Once in PS, I then adjust levels, USM, resizing etc and save from PS.

Thanks Guys.

Matt, I had the in-camera sharpening turned on to 'medium high'. I was just comparing images at 25 % of the full size and the difference was quite aparent. I think PS ignores all in-camera PPIng when dealing with NEFs.

Dave, I used to do the same (send file to PS after initial NC adjustments) but this difference that I observed last night was after I did the adjustments in NC (before saving) and sent it to PS. What I saw in PS window was very inferior to what I saw in NC. I think one has to save in a format other than NEF after NC, for some settings to be applied properly in PS CS. WB and Exp. comp. certainly get transferred without problems to PS, but not so for the in-camera sharpening or the custom curve. My favourite way has now become to save as JPG in NC (although 16-bit quaility is lost) and then deal with the resulting JPG in PS. TIFF allows work around re 16-bit but the file size is apauling I am not quite confident if I am correct on the point that if you import NEF from NC to PS you lose some of the tags as I did not notice it before, but the difference I noticed last night for the first time was astonishing. It does make sense though as PS is known to ignore custom curves too, so why would it take care of in-camera settings like sharpening. Of course WB and Exp. comp seems to be universal and gets transferred to PS anyway.

Anyone has any comments on this issue?

Cheers
Alex

Just to add, Dave. Of course if you don't want any of the in-camera PPing like custom curve or sharpening to be applied and you will deal this in PS anyway, then what I said about importing from NC to PS is to be ignored. As a newbie though I find custom curve and some in-camera sharpening to be useful although it defeats the original purpose of RAW.

Alex

I often wonder about the format of saving. I save in PSD (photoshop format) because it seemed like a good idea. Why should I save in this format as opposed to NEF or TIF (file size?) or another for that matter? PSD seems to work and saving doesn't look to degrade the image, so I'll continue to do that until someone convinces me differently.

Dave,
I wondered about this myself. Although, if you initially save with NC you only have an option of NEF, TIFF or JPG. What are PSD files sizes are like?

Alex

Alex wrote:Hi,

While PPing some NEF files last night, I noticed that when I opened a NEF file in NC most photos looked much sharper than those opened with ACR in PS. Is it because NC applies parameters tagged to NEF files, such as sharpening or is there more to know? Because of this difference I now do the initial conversion in NC and open the resulting JPG or TIFF in PS CS for fine tuning.

Thanks
Alex

Alex - NEVER use jpeg as an intermediate format as it is lossy so you have less data to work with. TIFF is lossless so better.

The difference you notice is really an artifact of using two different raw interpreters. The Nikon one is better since they know more about the format

For this reason I use just NC when I can since I can do most PP there. I have purchased the Nik Color Efex filters for NC to round out NC's functionality and unless I need to do cloning or fancy layer stuff NC is a one stop shop.

If I want to use PS CS then I work on (a copy of) the NEF and avoid NC completely.

To see an example of NC only work (using nik filters) have a look at these two images (click the image for the larger versions):

What I usually do is use NC, make changes necessary and then save to TIFF 16Bit per channel. I used to use the Open Photoshop feature from NC but this sometimes crashed PS:CS. Once saved as a PSD you won't lose any image quality as it saves it as raw data with no lossless compression. As for file sizes, it all depends on the resolution and how many layers you have. Seeing as no compression is performed on the image you can end up with some hefty files.

As stubbsy said, use NC as the RAW reader there is made by Nikon, whereas the one by Adobe is either reversed engineered or based off of code or tech data given to them from Nikon. Which can always be interpreted or implemented incorrectly by others. I had an article on the differences between loading RAWs via NC or via PS. The differences were quite substantial and made me think twice about using PS Raw.

Stubbsy, nice butterfly. These critters always decide to fly away after Im setup and ready to take the shot.

Alex wrote:Hi,

While PPing some NEF files last night, I noticed that when I opened a NEF file in NC most photos looked much sharper than those opened with ACR in PS. Is it because NC applies parameters tagged to NEF files, such as sharpening or is there more to know? Because of this difference I now do the initial conversion in NC and open the resulting JPG or TIFF in PS CS for fine tuning.

Thanks
Alex

Hi Alex,

The behavior you observed would be expected, for the reasons you guessed. NC opens the image using the default parameters tagged in the camera. PS CS, using ACR, ignores all of Nikon's flags and opens it as a base raw file.

Peter,

Wonderful images. Thanks and thanks for the advice on NC vs PS. I must say, I am very inclined to follow your advice. What I saw yesterdays compliments very well what you are saying above re different RAW converters treating NEFs differently. I am somewhat surprised though that NC has 'send to PS' function, yet you have to start pretty much from the scratch once in PS as apart from WB and exp.comp all the other settings seem to be ignored.

What do those Nikon colour filters do?

Cheers
Alex

Peter, just to add to TIFF vs JPG. I think I will use TIFF as intermediate format from now on, then get final JPG file and delete the TIFF to save space.

Alex

Alex wrote:...What do those Nikon colour filters do?

Cheers
Alex

Alex

I bought the 45 filter Select Edition version from Adorama for US$89.95. This link is at Adorama and gives most details. Also check out the Nik site here

Alex wrote:Peter,

I am somewhat surprised though that NC has 'send to PS' function, yet you have to start pretty much from the scratch once in PS as apart from WB and exp.comp all the other settings seem to be ignored.

Cheers
Alex

Alex,

When a NEF image is transferred from NC to PS, the image is processed according to your adjustments in NC and transferred as a TIF. PS receives the completer adjusted image.

Cheers

Matt

Stubbsy,

Thanks for the link. I have the PS version of Nikon Color Efex standard which came with my spyder. I did not know that the Nikon version was even available. The other stuff on that page looks interesting too.

Cheers

Matt

MattC wrote:

Alex wrote:Peter,

I am somewhat surprised though that NC has 'send to PS' function, yet you have to start pretty much from the scratch once in PS as apart from WB and exp.comp all the other settings seem to be ignored.

Cheers
Alex

Alex,

When a NEF image is transferred from NC to PS, the image is processed according to your adjustments in NC and transferred as a TIF. PS receives the completer adjusted image.

Cheers

Matt

That's what I thought until last night too, Matt. You may well be right, but I cannot find an explanation for the difference between PS and NC windows I saw on one of my images. I will do some more tests tonight with other photos and see. May be it was just a one-off.

Cheers
Alex

So when I use the sharpening method in NC, then open it in CS, does CS ignore the fact I used sharpening? Is this why most you guys recommend using USM in CS?

Neeper wrote:So when I use the sharpening method in NC, then open it in CS, does CS ignore the fact I used sharpening? Is this why most you guys recommend using USM in CS?

I am not sure on this one. I think if you used sharpening in-camera on a NEF it would only be recognised in NC. But if you do sharpening manually in NC and import the image into PS, it should get recognised. I never used sharpening in NC, only in-camera and USM in PS when PPing.

I think the difference I saw between PS and NC is due to PS ignoring in-camera sharpening and custom curve.

Alex

Neeper wrote:So when I use the sharpening method in NC, then open it in CS, does CS ignore the fact I used sharpening? Is this why most you guys recommend using USM in CS?

If the NEF is edited in NC then saved as NEF, then opened eith ACR, sharpening is ignored. If the NEF is sharpened in NC then transferred to PS (or saved as TIF and opened in PS) the sharpening is respected. No choice really. As mentioned NC processes to TIF prior to transfer.

Here is something to try. Crank up the sharpening 100,100,0 in NC, transfer to PS, resize your windows so that the two images can be placed side by side. The images should be identical.

Photoshop is generally regarded as having the better sharpening methods. To be honest I can get similar results from either.

Cheers

Matt

Alex wrote:

Neeper wrote:So when I use the sharpening method in NC, then open it in CS, does CS ignore the fact I used sharpening? Is this why most you guys recommend using USM in CS?

I am not sure on this one. I think if you used sharpening in-camera on a NEF it would only be recognised in NC. But if you do sharpening manually in NC and import the image into PS, it should get recognised. I never used sharpening in NC, only in-camera and USM in PS when PPing.

I think the difference I saw between PS and NC is due to PS ignoring in-camera sharpening and custom curve.

Alex

Alex,

Spot on. To be a little pedantic, it is ACR that ignores curves... Just for the sake of clarity.

EDIT: In-camera sharpening or USM will be recognised and treated the same if exporting from NC to PS. If opening the NEF with ACR both are ignored.

Also try comparing unsharpened images. ie turn off the NC sharpening in Advanced RAW and compare it to the image in ACR. It will be tone curves and ACR calibration that will be the difference.

IMO, ACR is not exactly a tool for newbies. Just getting the thing calibrated can be an exercise in frustration. Adding to this the other issues of monitor calibration, colour management.... Aaargh! The learning curve is steep. I always recommend NC to start with, then work into ACR once everything else is sorted. Personally, I prefer NC for initial WB & EV adjustments when needed. ( I may also use CurveSurgery for replacing/modifying tone curves - main reason I use NC) I will work my way through a folder of shots saving as RAW, then batch convert the whole lot to TIF for PS. I do not use PSD because it is not supported by NC - once it is TIF it stays TIF. File sizes are close enough to identical (TIF vs PSD).

Cheers

Matt

[/quote]

As mentioned NC processes to TIF prior to transfer.
[/quote]

Matt, Are you sure on this one, I mean TIF? When I do "send to PS", PS CS window title says; filename.NEF but by-passes ACR preliminary window. What about the in-camera settings though? Are they ignored even when sent from NC to PS?

Sorry for being an annoyance but I want to get this right.

Thanks
Alex

MattC wrote:

Alex wrote:

Neeper wrote:So when I use the sharpening method in NC, then open it in CS, does CS ignore the fact I used sharpening? Is this why most you guys recommend using USM in CS?

I am not sure on this one. I think if you used sharpening in-camera on a NEF it would only be recognised in NC. But if you do sharpening manually in NC and import the image into PS, it should get recognised. I never used sharpening in NC, only in-camera and USM in PS when PPing.

I think the difference I saw between PS and NC is due to PS ignoring in-camera sharpening and custom curve.

Alex

Alex,

Spot on. To be a little pedantic, it is ACR that ignores curves... Just for the sake of clarity.

Also try comparing unsharpened images. ie turn off the NC sharpening in Advanced RAW and compare it to the image in ACR. It will be tone curves and ACR calibration that will be the difference.

IMO, ACR is not exactly a tool for newbies. Just getting the thing calibrated can be an exercise in frustration. Adding to this the other issues of monitor calibration, colour management.... Aaargh! The learning curve is steep. I always recommend NC to start with, then work into ACR once everything else is sorted. Personally, I prefer NC for initial WB & EV adjustments when needed. ( I may also use CurveSurgery for replacing/modifying tone curves - main reason I use NC) I will work my way through a folder of shots saving as RAW, then batch convert the whole lot to TIF for PS. I do not use PSD because it is not supported by NC - once it is TIF it stays TIF. File sizes are close enough to identical (TIF vs PSD).

Cheers

Matt

Matt, sorry mate, didn't see this reply first.

Ok, I am a bit clearer on this one now. Makes sense. I started using ACR first ignoring the NC altogether. You hit the nail on the head I think. ACR looks very easy to use, but it's not and I heard other people on DPreview mention that NC gives sharper images than PS and doubt it. Now, I realise that RAW in PS requires more skill than that in NC.

One thing left for me to clarify is I am astonished that in-camera setting are lost even after you export the open NEF to PS thus avoiding the initial ACR window. This is at least the conclusion I came to after seeing two windows side-by-side of the NEF opened and corrected in NC and one sent to PS. The image in PS looked much blurier. I guess the in-camera sharpening was ignored even at that stage.

I now absolutely agree with you on newbies like me using NC to do WB and exp. comp. Curves recognition is another great advantage which can be used in conjunction with curve surgery.

Then I would save the result as TIFF (not exprt to PS) and re-open the TIFF in PS for futher PPing.

Thanks again

Alex

Alex wrote:

As mentioned NC processes to TIF prior to transfer.
[/quote]

Matt, Are you sure on this one, I mean TIF? When I do "send to PS", PS CS window title says; filename.NEF but by-passes ACR preliminary window. What about the in-camera settings though? Are they ignored even when sent from NC to PS?


Sorry for being an annoyance but I want to get this right.

Thanks
Alex[/quote]

Alex,

I am certain. Transfer from NC using the Photoshop button and the file is Filename.tif (but sometimes reverts to untitled. no extension).

If the same file is opened in ACR it has the NEF file extension.

Matt

On this topic... what does PSCS do with custom tonal curves like Fotogenic etc. that NC accepts? I assume they could be ignored also.

Alistair

Alex wrote:One thing left for me to clarify is I am astonished that in-camera setting are lost even after you export the open NEF to PS thus avoiding the initial ACR window. This is at least the conclusion I came to after seeing two windows side-by-side of the NEF opened and corrected in NC and one sent to PS. The image in PS looked much blurier. I guess the in-camera sharpening was ignored even at that stage.

Alex

Something weird there Alex. I transfer my open NEF from NC to PS as a TIF and the image is identical. The image was shot with in-camera sharpening.

No annoyance. I have been there.

Cheers

Matt

Alistair,

Exactly.

You could always save an ACR calibration for each of your favourite curves.

Cheers

Matt

MattC wrote:

Alex wrote:

As mentioned NC processes to TIF prior to transfer.

Matt, Are you sure on this one, I mean TIF? When I do "send to PS", PS CS window title says; filename.NEF but by-passes ACR preliminary window. What about the in-camera settings though? Are they ignored even when sent from NC to PS?


Sorry for being an annoyance but I want to get this right.

Thanks
Alex[/quote]



Alex,

I am certain. Transfer from NC using the Photoshop button and the file is Filename.tif (but sometimes reverts to untitled. no extension).

If the same file is opened in ACR it has the NEF file extension.

Matt[/quote]

Thanks, Matt. I will test this tonight. I deifinately remember the filename being untitled, but will check re extension again. Hopefully the images will be identical. I wonder if the difference is because of different colour porifle. My NC uses the default Nikon sRGB or something to that tune, but PS is set to sRGBI...... (typical monitor).

Cheers
Alex

stubbsy wrote:

Alex wrote:...What do those Nikon colour filters do?

Cheers
Alex

Alex

I bought the 45 filter Select Edition version from Adorama for US$89.95. This link is at Adorama and gives most details. Also check out the Nik site here

Thanks, Peter.

Cheers
Alex

AlistairF wrote:On this topic... what does PSCS do with custom tonal curves like Fotogenic etc. that NC accepts? I assume they could be ignored also.

Alistair

Alistair, PS's ACR completely ignores the in-camera custom curves. Only NC recognises them.

Alex

A big thank-you to everyone involved in this thread. You sure did clarify a lot of things for me.

Matt,

You are absolutely right regarding the files being imported as TIF into PS and also the file looked exactly the same in NC and PS CS and it makes sense as it by-passed the ACR. I think what happened last night is I chose
'Save as NEF and open with PS" option which would go through the ACR and ignore all the in-camera tags.
I'm having a cold one to celebrate this clarification.

Cheers

Alex

Alex, glad you got that one sorted.

Cheers

Matt

Here comes Neeper's stupid question of the day:

What is ACR??

Neeper wrote:Here comes Neeper's stupid question of the day:

What is ACR??

Neeper,

Adobe Camera Raw - Photoshop plugin which enables opening and processing of RAW (NEF) images in Photoshop.

Cheers

Matt

MattC wrote:

Neeper wrote:Here comes Neeper's stupid question of the day:

What is ACR??

Neeper,

Adobe Camera Raw - Photoshop plugin which enables opening and processing of RAW (NEF) images in Photoshop.

Cheers

Matt

Thanks, makes sense!