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Hi

I thought I better start a separate thread. As per my other thread on Canon flashes, I currently have a Sigma 10-20mm on my Canon 400D. During my overseas trip, I find that although I love the ultrawide view, I really need more range and is considering buying a more general purpose travel lens for our next trip. My wife got upset with me several times for swapping lens with the 50mm F1.8. We joined a tour to Japan and the schedule was really tight.

I have been reading up on the available choices and has narrowed down the choice of lens to the following:

Canon 17-85mm IS
Sigma 17-70mm F2.8-4.5
Sigma 18-50mm F2.8
Tamron 17-50mm F2.8

I did not include the more expensive Canon lenses that will set me back more than $1k. Being an amateur, I cannot justify spending more than $750 for this lens till such time my photographing skills is good enough to warrant spending that extra for a better quality lens.

I also heard that there is a Tokina 16-50mm being released soon, has anyone actually come across this lens?

Any other suggestions?

ssschen wrote:My wife got upset with me several times for swapping lens with the 50mm F1.8.
...

Any other suggestions?

Get another wife?



Seriosuly, ditch tours - travel independantly. You're then the master of how long you may stay in each place, you can meet with the locals, you can see what they see, eat where they do ....

Oh yes .... what about the Tamron 18-200?

gstark wrote:

ssschen wrote:My wife got upset with me several times for swapping lens with the 50mm F1.8.
...

Any other suggestions?

Get another wife?



Seriosuly, ditch tours - travel independantly. You're then the master of how long you may stay in each place, you can meet with the locals, you can see what they see, eat where they do ....

Oh yes .... what about the Tamron 18-200?

What about an extra body (and an extra lens)?

Cheers, Mick

lots of people love the nikon 18-200VR. you can get them for about $1000 used. If you need the VR for handholding, it would be great. If you dont, I think the sigma 18-200 is well placed (or the tamron gary referred to)

Oz_Beachside wrote:lots of people love the nikon 18-200VR. you can get them for about $1000 used.

And then he'd need to buy the adaptor to make it fit his camera: he's a Canon user.

gstark wrote:

Oz_Beachside wrote:lots of people love the nikon 18-200VR. you can get them for about $1000 used.

And then he'd need to buy the adaptor to make it fit his camera: he's a Canon user.

oh...

eating words, sorry

With the 10-20 I'd be tempted to go a bit longer, either cheaply via a 70-300 or more expensively via a 70-200 (pick one that suits your budget). I have the Sigma 18-50 and like it a lot because it's small, light and fast. It tends to spend a lot of time on my ex-gf's 350D because she's also... never mind. That lens works really well. I also have a 24-70/2.8 and that is a monster in comparison, but I use it more because it's often better to have two cameras than one.

I haven't even seen the Tamron, but if you can I'd try both and pick the one you prefer. The range of focal lengths is good and the Sigma at least is great to work with. f/2.8 across the range is more important than you might think for working inside, it's one place where quantisation noise can really be an obvious pain.

One alternative would be picking up an S3 or something for the longer shots in better light, and keeping the DSLR for the situations where a compact just wont work. That also gives your wife something to play with while you're busy (if she's into that).

gstark wrote:

ssschen wrote:My wife got upset with me several times for swapping lens with the 50mm F1.8.
...

Any other suggestions?

Get another wife?



Seriosuly, ditch tours - travel independantly. You're then the master of how long you may stay in each place, you can meet with the locals, you can see what they see, eat where they do ....

Oh yes .... what about the Tamron 18-200?

I hope my wife did not see your post. Or else, she will ban me from visiting this forum again!!

That tour is actually our first ever tour that we joined. Apart from the tight schedule, it is actually very economical. I have no doubt it would have been much more expensive if we were to go about it ourselves. This is not to say all tour all economical though.

I was of the impression that zoom lens with extended range compromises on quality? As much as I love an all round lens with extended range and decent quality, I thought this is only a dream? I rather have a sharp and decent lens with shorter range. This said, if you guys are suggesting that there are lenses out there with extended range and still of good quality, perhaps I should look into those as well?

gstark wrote:

Oz_Beachside wrote:lots of people love the nikon 18-200VR. you can get them for about $1000 used.

And then he'd need to buy the adaptor to make it fit his camera: he's a Canon user.

Are you just saying this in jest? I have no idea you can buy lens for another brand and just get an adaptor to use it? Come on now, I admit I am a newbie, stop confusing me.

moz wrote:With the 10-20 I'd be tempted to go a bit longer, either cheaply via a 70-300 or more expensively via a 70-200 (pick one that suits your budget). I have the Sigma 18-50 and like it a lot because it's small, light and fast. It tends to spend a lot of time on my ex-gf's 350D because she's also... never mind. That lens works really well. I also have a 24-70/2.8 and that is a monster in comparison, but I use it more because it's often better to have two cameras than one.

I haven't even seen the Tamron, but if you can I'd try both and pick the one you prefer. The range of focal lengths is good and the Sigma at least is great to work with. f/2.8 across the range is more important than you might think for working inside, it's one place where quantisation noise can really be an obvious pain.

One alternative would be picking up an S3 or something for the longer shots in better light, and keeping the DSLR for the situations where a compact just wont work. That also gives your wife something to play with while you're busy (if she's into that).

Since I bought the DSLR during the trip, I actually did have my compact digital (S50) with me. It only has a 3x optical zoom lens though. This is certainly a valid suggestion, bringing along a compact digital does not add much to the travel weight comparing it to the DSLR.

My wife is not into anything electronics (Full Stop). To give you an idea, we have a 68cm FS TV purchased many years ago in our HT and a small 51cm in our family room. The 51cm TV is small by anyone standard in today's world, so is the 68cm mind you. To make it worse, we are seated more than 3m from it. I suggested that we upgrade it to a relatively cheap 81cm LCD but she said she is quite happy with it. This TV is more than 10 years old and it is not even FS.

Get her into a jewellery store however, and she can spend several hours in it. During the Hong Kong trip, she and her gal-fren stopped at one of the jewellery in a shopping centre with about 10 storeys of shops. After keeping them company for 10 minutes, I decided to shop solo. A couple of hours later, after I have been to all the floors, I came back to the jewellery store and they are still in there looking at diamond rings. They eventually left the shop, empty-handed!!

You mentioned your lens spends a lot of time on your "ex"-gf 350D??? If she is your ex, what is your lens doing on her camera body??? Don't tell me you "split" with her because she is hogging your toys.

ssschen wrote:That tour is actually our first ever tour that we joined. Apart from the tight schedule, it is actually very economical.

But you're always travelling on somebody else's schedule. You see something of interest here, and you want to stay a while longer to get some more images? Forget it.

That place looks like it may be great for a sunset shoot? Not on a tour, it doesn't.

And you want to eat where??????

[/quote]I was of the impression that zoom lens with extended range compromises on quality? As much as I love an all round lens with extended range and decent quality, I thought this is only a dream? I rather have a sharp and decent lens with shorter range. This said, if you guys are suggesting that there are lenses out there with extended range and still of good quality, perhaps I should look into those as well?[/quote]

The Nikon kit lenses are surpricing good, and represent very good value. The Nikkor 18-200 has produced some very sharp images, and as a walkaround, can be a very good buy ... but not for you.

I have no idea you can buy lens for another brand and just get an adaptor to use it?

You can buy adaptors to let you use Nikon lenses on Canon bodies. You cannot buy adaptors to let you use Canon lenses on Nikon bodies.

This is because the one body is thicker than the other, and this affects the critical distance - the distance from the lens mount to the focal plane. With a thinner body, you can fit an adaptor and still achieve focus, but if a body is already too thick, fitting an adaptor is not going to help.

That said, this is only something I'd recommend for special purpose applications, such as using a Nikon PC lens: with an adaptor you lose all focus and metering capabilities, and lenses like the Nikon kit lenses won't work anyway, because they're G series, with no aperture ring.

ssschen wrote:You mentioned your lens spends a lot of time on your "ex"-gf 350D???

Well, I spend a fair bit of time with her, and she takes half-decent photos, so I don't mind. Mostly. I don't really want to sell it but I don't use it very often. So I "borrow" it back when I want it, because her only lens is the kit lens. If/when I buy a bigger sensor camera I'll probably sell it to her.

gstark wrote:with an adaptor you lose all focus and metering capabilities,

I wonder how they do that? I've got metering and focus confirmation out of a modified body cap as well as the lensbaby, so they've got to be doing something quite interesting to prevent that happening.

Or are you confusing the Nikon behaviour with what proper cameras do?


FWIW, I have seen a Canon-lens-to-Nikon-body adapter, but it had a lens in it and you could only shoot wide open unless you had an EOS body handy to change it electronically.

moz wrote:

gstark wrote:with an adaptor you lose all focus and metering capabilities,

I wonder how they do that? I've got metering and focus confirmation out of a modified body cap as well as the lensbaby, so they've got to be doing something quite interesting to prevent that happening.

It would need some couplings and drive mechanisms. Depending upon the lens, they might be a combination of electronic and/or mechanical. Not impossible, but quite complex given the different constructions of each camera maker's stuff.

Or are you confusing the Nikon behaviour with what proper cameras do?

Well, you could certainly fit either a Nikkor or a Canon lens onto a large format camera, but you'd still need to address the absence os a leaf shutter in those lenses.

FWIW, I have seen a Canon-lens-to-Nikon-body adapter, but it had a lens in it and you could only shoot wide open unless you had an EOS body handy to change it electronically.

I'd be loathe to use that; what's the quality of that glass? I think I'd much prefer to just buy Canon glass for Canon bodies, and Nikkor glass for Nikon bodies, and that way I know I've got the best possible combos.

gstark wrote:with an adaptor you lose all focus and metering capabilities,

Gary, the Canon will meter based on what comes through the lens. There is no requirement for any assistance from the lens at all. To prevent that they'd need to put a smart chip into the adapter that told the Canon not to meter (I don't know if that's even one of the available functions).

Likewise with focus, the focus detector just looks at the light coming in and does the AF magic, there's no interaction with the lens for that.

But to get aperture control and autofocus, they would need all sorts of jumping-through-hoops. Don't Nikon have several different systems in use, including some where the AF motor is in the camera? The adapter to do that would be quite interesting to see.

moz wrote:

gstark wrote:with an adaptor you lose all focus and metering capabilities,

Gary, the Canon will meter based on what comes through the lens. There is no requirement for any assistance from the lens at all. To prevent that they'd need to put a smart chip into the adapter that told the Canon not to meter (I don't know if that's even one of the available functions).

Ok, but you still need to tell the lens what aperture the camera wants it to be set to (for a G series Nikkor).

I suppose that you can use stopped down metering for a Nikkor AI lens, but your view through the viewfinder - and thus your focusing, which has to be manual - would be severely compromised unless you're shooting wide open.

Likewise with focus, the focus detector just looks at the light coming in and does the AF magic, there's no interaction with the lens for that.[/quote}

???

There must be interaction between the lens and the body for AF to work.

Certainly, a focus indicator can just read the image, but the camera still needs to interact with the lens to have it physically move some of the lens elements in order to have that lens acquire focus automatically.

But to get aperture control and autofocus, they would need all sorts of jumping-through-hoops. Don't Nikon have several different systems in use, including some where the AF motor is in the camera? The adapter to do that would be quite interesting to see.

Yes they do. And lenses from the late 60s work on the latest Nikon digital bodies. The Nikon system is certainly well designed.

Oh, that wasn't your point, was it?

Early Nikon AF - 1988 or thereabouts (I don't have my references handy) uses an in-body motor, with a small screw-head like mechanism that connects the body mechanics to the lens's AF drive. The nomenclature for this is Nikon AF, as distinct from AF-S, which tells you that there is a motor in the lens, and the focus drive communication is handled electronically rather than mechanically.

Extending the mechanical drive through an adaptor is actually a fairly trivial task - early AF TCs did exactly that - but of course you need the in-body motor to provide the source for the drive. Canon bodies do not have this, hence this cannot work in a Canon body to Nikon lens adaptor.

The D40 also lacks the in-body motor, hence it cannot use AF designated lenses in auto focus mode.

From my perspective, unless you have aperture control and AF in your adaptor - you would want to have a damn good reason to want to use one of them.

As I said earlier, using a Nikkor PC lens would qualify, but ordinarily, each manufacturer makes basically the same stuff, and I suspect that you'd lose more than you'd gain through the use of such an adaptor.

gstark wrote:but you still need to tell the lens what aperture the camera wants it to be set to

That is only if you want the camera to tell the lens what aperture to use. If you just want the camera to produce a correctly exposed shot all you need is metering (and control over the shutter, which the camera has since it holds the shutter). Canon cameras display "00" for aperture in this case, but take perfectly good photos.

Now I'm somewhat confused - when Nikon say "no metering on a modern body with this lens" do they mean "no automatic aperture control", or do they really mean "no metering"? It's always seemed quite odd to me that a Nikon body would shut down TTL metering just because the lens won't talk to it. But if that's just because Nikon are using terminology in an odd way it makes much more sense. But leave open the question of how Nikon describes the "no metering or automatic aperture control" situation that you get with a manual camera.

moz wrote:Likewise with focus, the focus detector just looks at the light coming in and does the AF magic, there's no interaction with the lens for that.

OK, there are two distinct functions: the little "you are in focus" light, and the "I am going to twiddle the lens to force you to be in focus". The first one just needs light coming in through the lens, while the second needs a twiddling mechanism. Canon cameras are quite good at not disabling the former just because the latter does not work. I can slap an FD lens on my 30D and the focus confirmation light comes on just as I'd expect (I'd played with a FD 400/4.5 as noticed this). I expect that it would work just the same on any other lens, given that the FD-EF adapter was just a chunk of metal.

This is what makes it reasonable for me to look at MF macro lenses alongside the Canon ones - the cost is similar and so is the performance. What I lose is AF in non-macro work, and I will likely get an f/4 lens instead of f/2.8. But despite the lack of any useful electronics in the lens (from a Canon camera body point of view), the lens will meter and focus-detect just fine. Plus the adapter plate can be a shift plate instead of just adapter, giving me the option of buying a short MF lens too.

Arrrgghhh... quick.. someone get me some pain killers... my head hurts

Oh... and did i say i have made up my mind? When they make that "you beaut" Hybrid Canon-Nikon 18-200 f/2.8 in a lightweight (less than 1kg) casing, that is the lens I am buying. Of course, hybrid means it will work on both Canon and Nikon bodies.

I nearly forgot, better make that no more than $1k. Did I hear someone say I am dreaming?

This is a good innovative idea, is it not?