UPDATE: Canon 5D2 or 7D for low light inside without flash?

[muzz]

I've been asked to take photographs at a private funeral of my partner's grandmother (I know, I know I'm not entirely comfortable with it either!) and as I only have a 350D I thought I'd take the opportunity to hire a 28-70 2.8L and either a 5D2 or 7D which I can arrange locally at Quality Camera Sales (the price is the same for either combo). I also have my own 70-200 2.8L (non-IS unfortunately). I can get hold of the camera the day before to familiarise myself with the controls.

Given that I won't be using flash and it will be almost entirely inside the chapel/crematorium, I'd appreciate advice on which to go for. The funeral is on Monday (4 days away).

Thanks.

[DaveB]

General rule of thumb is that at high ISOs the 5DmkII is about a stop better than the 7D. If they're the same price, I'd go the 5DmkII and use it up to ISO 6400.

Note that if you're shooting wide open then obviously your depth of field will be limited and your focusing will need to be good. The apparent depth-of-field with the 5DmkII is smaller than with the 7D (due to the different crop factor) which exacerbates the issue. If you only needed to go to 3200 with the lens @ f/2.8, I'd experiment with instead using 6400 @ f/4. Whatever you do, don't underexpose and then try to brighten it later. That's a reliable way of getting noise with any camera at any ISO...

You'll want to at least have a quick rest run in similar lighting, and review the shots before the actual event.

[natskis]

Another thing to think about is that when you're using the 5dII, your 28-70 2.8L is is equivalent to a 17-43 on the 7d.

You might end up kicking yourself if you miss shots because the 1.6 cropping on the 7D was too narrow. Seeing as your top end focal length will be covered with your 70-200, it would make sense to go with the Full Frame 5DII.

That is, unless you have a decent fast wide angle lens for the 7d.

Of course, even still. I'd still go the 5DII

[photomarcs]

Given the general sort of perspective of this event,

I'd say go the 5D Mark II for the following reasons;

1. alot of shots will be wide ( i have a feeling about this as the last one i shot, the wide angle was used about 40% of the time)
2. low light, you can't beat the 5D in low light and detail, as well as noise reduction.
3. shooting with the 5D is easier to be familiarised than with the 7D, you'll be tweaking and fiddling quite a fair amount with the 7D, and the 5D is comfier to grasp ( IMHO).
4. Careful with using your 70-200 2.8, as the shear weight might be an issue, unless you have "photographer's superflex" then I'd probably suggest borrowing a mates 70-200 f4L ( as this would be a much lighter option especially for the length of the day, and DOF is easier to control as stated by DaveB)
5. 28-70 f2.8 is all you'll realistically need on a 5D mark II for this event i pressume. 28mm is wide enough on Full Frame, i doubt you will use much wider.

Feel free to contradict, but its just my opinion. =)

[photomarcs]

oh btw, definately bring your 430ex ( as i can see in your list of equipment), as you might already do so, but use it to help you AF. =) the 7D has a majorly better AF system than the 5D II ( I've tested so with a mate and mine, we just realised that the 7D with a 70-200 f4L would snap into focus alot quicker than the 5D II in low light, the 5D tended to hunt a little more)

but, yes... definately bring your 430ex.. disable flash and use its wonderful AF assist mechanism =D

[muzz]

That is all good advice - thanks very much. I was leaning towards the 5D2 so it seems it will be my choice.

Thanks Marcus for the tip re: AF assist from the flash - I hadn't thought of that. I had better work out how to do that as I didn't even realise it could be done.

Thanks everyone for your help.

Cheers, Muzz

[muzz]

You'll want to at least have a quick rest run ....

Hey is that a pro-tip Dave? I was thinking more of a long rest run, maybe without the run!

Thanks for the exposure advice - I'll see what I can get away with. I was thinking pushing to 1600 would be about the limit so I'm glad I have even more room up my sleeve.

[Wink]

Do you really want a flash firing off at a funeral though?

[photomarcs]

Do you really want a flash firing off at a funeral though?

Hi Wink ! =)

My comment wasn't intended to use flash, if you use the 430ex on the 5D mark II, go to External Speedlite Controls > Flash Firing > Disable.

This will stop the flash from firing but not the AF assist ( same thing can be used on other Canon's by going to Flash Control > Flash Firing > Disable...or something like that)

But thats how its done, and trust me, works well =D

[DaveB]

Just to be clear here: the AF assist on the external flashes are separate red lights, not bursts of flash as you get from most pop-up flashes these days.
I would use the ST-E2 (partly because I have one) as it is much less imposing and doesn't look like a flash that might go off. But certainly the 430EX will work fine in this regard.

Make sure the 5DmkII has the AF in ONE SHOT or AI FOCUS modes. The AF assist is inactive if you're in AI SERVO.
Make sure that C.Fn III-5 (AF-assist beam firing) is set to 0 (Enable)
Then (with the flash attached) go into the External Speedlite Control menu (on the camera. not the flash - it's in the yellow menu section). Then to Flash function settings. Set "Flash firing" to Disable.

This works even with my old 420EX.

[Wink]

Cool.

Thanks for clearing that up for me guys.

[muzz]

Well I went for the 5D2 but unfortunately it was DOA - "Error 30" which Stu at Quality Camera Sales had never heard of let alone experienced but apparently means the shutter is cactus - my usual luck! Very disappointing but I now will be using the 7D. He offered me a 1DMk? but I thought the controls on the 7D felt more familiar so I would get used to it more quickly.

Anyway any 7D users out there with any tips different to what I had for the 5D2? I have taken a couple of handheld shots under tungsten at 1600 ISO and they are pretty noisy.

Cheers, Muzz.

[surenj]

Could you surreptitiously increase the ambient lighting with various strategic lamps etc? [I am serious]

Other option is to leave ALL lights on; regardless of their temperature.

[aim54x]

Anyway any 7D users out there with any tips different to what I had for the 5D2? I have taken a couple of handheld shots under tungsten at 1600 ISO and they are pretty noisy.

Cheers, Muzz.

sounds normal, are you viewing these images on your computer screen or on the back LCD? Photomarcs found that the back LCD showed more noise than was really there.

As for keeping noise down....noise ninja in post?

[gstark]

I have taken a couple of handheld shots under tungsten at 1600 ISO and they are pretty noisy.

How's your exposure? If you're under exposing, then you will be exacerbating the apparent (and actual) noise. Check your metering and metering mode, and make sure that it's giving you good values. Maybe switch to spot metering, for instance.

[Wink]

I've got shots at ISO3200 from my 7D that Dfine looks to have cleared up just nicely.
I should get some printed with and without the noise reduction to see what the real world difference is.

[DaveB]

How's your exposure? If you're under exposing, then you will be exacerbating the apparent (and actual) noise.

Very true. It's true at all ISOs, it just becomes more obvious at higher ISOs.

Another factor that many people forget (or just don't realise) is that with red/yellow lighting, when you set the WB to neutralise the colours the camera (or RAW processor) will effectively end up boosting the blue levels in the image. Blue is often the noisiest channel!
You may just have to live with it, but if you can increase the exposure as well as introduce "bluer" light (e.g. closer to daylight) that can help with the noise a lot.

I've got lots of 7D frames @3200 that I'm happy with. There is noise there, but it's not objectionable.

[muzz]

Thanks for all the tips and advice guys. The image i shot in the wee hours of a grey and white cat asleep on a dark chair under one of those fluoro globes made to look like a normal incandescent R80 was probably not the best to judge by. I've been experimenting outside and under cover and 800 ISO looks as far as I'd like to push it but I'll see tomorrow - get there early and chimp a bit on some test shots.

I've read almost all of the manual but I have one question about how to lock the AF and exposure to the centre AF point with half pressing the shutter on the 7D, which I'll post in a new thread if that's OK to try to get a quick answer before the funeral in the morning.

Thanks again, Muzz

[muzz]

Well I got through the funeral but I was not a happy snapper. There was a minimum of overhead tungsten, but a bright window strongly backlit the coffin and the lecturn. Almost all were shot at ISO1600/3200 and mostly around f2.8 with either 24-70 2.8L or 70-200 2.8L - I must admit there was a little voice in my ear saying "D3s...D3s..." I'd already made the decision not to use a flash and even if I had tried, it would have been on camera as the service moves in so quickly and out again to make way for the next "dispatch".

I snapped this shot after the chapel emptied (ISO1600, f5, 1/80 @24mm) - just converted from RAW, no PP:



This is a screenshot from Aperture 3 of the lecturn at 100%:



Now the fun begins, trying to reduce the noise to make a useable image - hopefully won't be too bad at the 6x4 or 5x7 print size. The noise in faces could be a problem though.

[Wink]

I'd be surprised if they even needed noise reduction for printing at the sizes you've mentioned.

[DaveB]

I haven't run 7D files through Aperture 3, but the noise controls in LR 3 are quite nice. But then again in those small prints I doubt it will be a problem either way.

Be aware that the photo you've provided shows signs of Red/Cyan chromatic aberration (not unusual with that lens @24mm). Fixing this in your RAW processor is important.

Cute that you geocoded this shot: gotcha right in the middle of Karrakatta Cemetery!
Also, it looks like your Copyright data needs fixing: it's not 2009 any more.

Cheers

[gstark]

Also, it looks like your Copyright data needs fixing: it's not 2009 any more.

Interesting point, Dave, and especially so as I believe that this is a rental camera. Something to take note of when using a rental.

[muzz]

it looks like your Copyright data needs fixing: it's not 2009 any more.

Thanks guys - the copyright info would have been entered when I was studiously working my way through the lessons in the Aperture 2 Pro Training Manual last year. It's not something I think about as I don't put many photos up but I'll correct it and hope I remember to do it again in 2011. I did actually check the camera (I'd seen it happen in the EXIF data of a Christian Fletcher image he'd taken on a Nikon D3x loaned to him by Nikon Australia) which had been cleared but didn't think to look at Aperture.

Cute that you geocoded this shot: gotcha right in the middle of Karrakatta Cemetery!

I'm geocoding everything now it's so easy to do in Aperture 3

Be aware that the photo you've provided shows signs of Red/Cyan chromatic aberration (not unusual with that lens @24mm). Fixing this in your RAW processor is important.

I haven't had to or actually known to do this before (Aperture 2 didn't have the specific controls) but now Aperture 3 has a Chromatic Aberration control as well as a Halo control, both of which can be used as brushes so I will have a play with those.

[DaveB]

I'll correct it and hope I remember to do it again in 2011.

In LR I apply metadata presets as the images are being imported. The names I give the presets are important: "David Box Hill 2010" contains appropriate creator, location, and copyright info. Others I have include "David Victoria 2010", "David Southbank 2010", etc.
I keep my name in there as I sometimes manage images for other people and don't want to forget what's in these presets.
Similarly I have the year in the name so that it's obvious in the import dialog. Otherwise every January I would forget to start defining and applying new presets!

I presume there are facilities in Aperture3 where this sort of system can be applied also.

I haven't had to or actually known to do this before (Aperture 2 didn't have the specific controls) but now Aperture 3 has a Chromatic Aberration control as well as a Halo control, both of which can be used as brushes so I will have a play with those.

CA control isn't really something that needs to be applied as a brush. If CA is there it will be most obvious at high-contrast tangential edges far away from the centre of the image, but it will exist across the entire frame. Fixing it can improve the detail across the whole picture!