Only single shot with pop-up flash in commander mode

[pwoo]

I am a bit disappointed that when you use the pop-up flash in commander mode, the camera will only shoot one frame at a time (even in CL or CH mode). I understand that the pop-up flash need time to recharge, but even when it is set to --, it still stop after just one shot. I think I've seen this mention in the manual, but why implement such a restriction?

When I use the SB-600 on the camera in manual mode, I can easily fire 3 to 4 fps if I keep the flash power low (e.g. 1/8). Since the SB-600 is fully charged (ready for a full power 1/1 shot) before the first shot, and each shot only spent 1/8 of the charge, it can discharge a few shoots just by using the charge on the capacitor(s).

Now go back to the pop-up flash in commander, all it need to do is fire a few 'pre-flash', really should not have exhausted all the charge, nor should it over heat the flash. Is there another reason to cripple it intentionally? May be a tactic to force people to buy the SU-800? I do not have the SB-800/SB-900, could any one kindly confirm that when using either one on the camera hot shoe as the "Master", it can fire multiple frame per second?

Well, I guess I have to keep using the "cheap ebay" wireless trigger on the new D300s.

Regards,
Patrick.

[gstark]

Patrick,

Please ask yourself a couple of questions for me ...

What is the difference in power between the SB-600, as against the pop-up flash on the D300?

And what is the camera doing when it's in commander mode, as against fully manual mode? How much more work is involved?

[aim54x]

Patrick,

Please ask yourself a couple of questions for me ...

What is the difference in power between the SB-600, as against the pop-up flash on the D300?

And what is the camera doing when it's in commander mode, as against fully manual mode? How much more work is involved?

that makes total sense....if i get some time i'll try the commander mode on my SB-800 and see if my FPS slows down.

[pwoo]

Gary,

I want to use the commander mode just to trigger the remote SB-600, not doing any iTTL. The pop-up flash is set to either -- or "M" with 1/128 or 1/64, Group A is also set to "M" with the desired power. The rest of the groups are --.

I honestly believe this is not a very demanding requirement. There are certainly many situations where the pop-up flash will need more time and/or power. But would it be better (at least for me) if the camera only slow down in those cases.

I think Nikon is being very conservative in using the tougher/toughest requirements to determine the behaviour of all commander mode operations. There are advantages in this approach, simplicity and consistency are two of them, but I would prefer being able to choose what it does.

Regards,
Patrick.

[gstark]

I think Nikon is being very conservative in using the tougher/toughest requirements

Yep.

The alternative is that when people use the given (partial) functionality, and it fails to perform, then they complain that the camera isn't working properly.

There is one aspect of Nikon's designs that I truly admire, and that is their commitment to engineering integrity. I see and respect what you are seeing as a result of that integrity, and as a person who frequently has to field queries from users trying all manner of out-of-spec things in all manner of endeavours, one needs to revisit the problem and look for other potential ways to address the issues encountered.

You may believe that this is not a very demanding situation. And you may be correct, but I have no evidence, either to support or reject your belief.

[DaveB]

I must admit that if my flash "master" ("commander" in Nikon terms) restricted my shooting rate that significantly I would be annoyed. If using the internal flash as commander only and not as illumination, I assume there shouldn't be much power/time needed to recharge.

pwoo, you haven't mentioned which camera you're using. Is it the D300? I wouldn't be surprised if there was a custom setting hiding somewhere on at least one body model which might help.


It will be interesting to see how the Canon 7D does in this regard (being the first EOS body using the pop-up flash as a master). Using an ST-E2 or 580EX as master my shooting rate is only limited by the recharge time of the slaves (for which I have external batteries to reduce this when high power needed). And in fact it doesn't restrict my shooting rate, just the frequency of flashes... Roll on the 7D!
And no, I'm not talking about flashing at 8 fps!

[gstark]

pwoo, you haven't mentioned which camera you're using. Is it the D300? I wouldn't be surprised if there was a custom setting hiding somewhere on at least one body model which might help.

Well, I guess I have to keep using the "cheap ebay" wireless trigger on the new D300s

But if such speed is needed, I really don't see any issue with using a wireless trigger, or even a cable connection. Hell, the cable connection has been a reliable staple for years; what's suddenly happened that makes it an unworkable method now?

Yes, I accept that it might not quite look as cool, but ....

And no, I can't see any custom setting on the camera. I just checked. Not on either of CL or CH.

[Mr Darcy]

OK I tried with the PUF. Single shot only. and only a shot every second or so.
Then I tried with the SB900 as master and the SB800 as master. Both scenarios happily fired off a dozen or so shots in CH
(M=-- A=M/128) Oh and I also tried M=--,A=M/4. It still fired happily in CH even though the recharge on the remote SB800 had no hope keeping up. Exposures got progressively dimmer.
Don't forget that the PUF is powered by the camera battery. I am sure the recharge circuitry is deliberately slow so it does not run the camera down too fast. And don't forget that the PUF, even in commander only mode, is still firing that flash. That is how it communicates.

[DaveB]

Don't forget that the PUF is powered by the camera battery. I am sure the recharge circuitry is deliberately slow so it does not run the camera down too fast. And don't forget that the PUF, even in commander only mode, is still firing that flash. That is how it communicates.

Yep, although there should be a lot less power required for communication than for illumination.
Using the battery grip on the D300 increases the available frame rate. Does it improve the flash recharge?

That's probably just wishful thinking...

[pwoo]

Well, I guess I have to keep using the "cheap ebay" wireless trigger on the new D300s

But if such speed is needed, I really don't see any issue with using a wireless trigger, or even a cable connection. Hell, the cable connection has been a reliable staple for years; what's suddenly happened that makes it an unworkable method now?

Yes, I accept that it might not quite look as cool, but ....

1. I actually think the "cheap wireless transmitter" look good on the camera, it's the receiver that need more mechanical strength. The plastic "L" bracket for attaching to the flash stand looks like it could break easily and doesn't hold the flash very steady. I taped two pieces of wood between receiver housing and the L bracket to add some support. However, I still fear I will break it one day.

2. The commander mode can change the power of the remote SB-600. I have set up the fn button to access commander mode directly.

3. Sometimes I want to add just a little bit of direct fill, the wireless transmitter prevent the pop-up flash to pop up.

one needs to revisit the problem and look for other potential ways to address the issues encountered.

I will take you up on this. I want to use continuous shooting with flash because I think/hope it will give me more keeper. May be this is the wrong way to go about it. I will describe my "problem" in another post and look forward to hear all the good advices/tips.

Regards,
Patrick.

[gstark]

Using the battery grip on the D300 increases the available frame rate. Does it improve the flash recharge

Not that I had noticed.

I want to use continuous shooting with flash because I think/hope it will give me more keeper.

Why do you think this? I'm asking, seriously, because I'd like to understand your thought processes.

You obviously believe that your current keeper rate isn't enough, and so let's explore that aspect. Why do you tink your keeper rate isn't good enough? Could we please see some examples?

Shooting more images at a quicker rate - which is how I'm understanding what you would like to do - will only produce more of the same, unless you change some settings between shots. As soon as you change some settings, then you're no longer shooting at the accelerated rate that you say you're seeking, and thus I think that your original question becomes moot.

[Mr Darcy]

Why do you think this? I'm asking, seriously, because I'd like to understand your thought processes.

You obviously believe that your current keeper rate isn't enough, and so let's explore that aspect. Why do you tink your keeper rate isn't good enough? Could we please see some examples?

Shooting more images at a quicker rate - which is how I'm understanding what you would like to do - will only produce more of the same, unless you change some settings between shots. As soon as you change some settings, then you're no longer shooting at the accelerated rate that you say you're seeking, and thus I think that your original question becomes moot.

I can think of some scenarios Gary. Mostly involving moving subjects. But I agree. Let's hear about the actual issue and address that, rather than tackle the technicalities of high frame rate with flash.

[gstark]

I can think of some scenarios Gary. Mostly involving moving subjects.

Greg, yes, for shooting moving subjects, I can understand there might be a need for continuous shooting, but that's not what I'm understanding. Patrick has mentioned that he wants to increase his keeper rate, but to my mind, if there's any issue that's affecting his keeper rate, then shooting more images using the same settings (that he believes are not giving a satisfactory keeper rate) will only make the keeper rate worse, rather than better.

[phillipb]

I can think of some scenarios Gary. Mostly involving moving subjects.

Greg, yes, for shooting moving subjects, I can understand there might be a need for continuous shooting, but that's not what I'm understanding. Patrick has mentioned that he wants to increase his keeper rate, but to my mind, if there's any issue that's affecting his keeper rate, then shooting more images using the same settings (that he believes are not giving a satisfactory keeper rate) will only make the keeper rate worse, rather than better.

Not if he's happy with the exposure but not happy with composition, eg. a model whipping her hair around may need a few continuous shots to get one that you're happy with.

[gstark]

I can think of some scenarios Gary. Mostly involving moving subjects.

Greg, yes, for shooting moving subjects, I can understand there might be a need for continuous shooting, but that's not what I'm understanding. Patrick has mentioned that he wants to increase his keeper rate, but to my mind, if there's any issue that's affecting his keeper rate, then shooting more images using the same settings (that he believes are not giving a satisfactory keeper rate) will only make the keeper rate worse, rather than better.

Not if he's happy with the exposure but not happy with composition, eg. a model whipping her hair around may need a few continuous shots to get one that you're happy with.

OK ....

[pwoo]

I want to use continuous shooting with flash because I think/hope it will give me more keeper.

Just to clarify, I want to increase the number of keeper, i.e. the number of photo that I like, not the keeper rate. I know that the keeper rate will most likely go down as I shoot faster/more.

As others have suggested, I hope the burst of shoots will help me get a good expression, avoid the half-closed eyes and even the focus. My 10 months old will rock back and fore to a song he likes, he also likes to crawl toward me when he sees the camera, if I focus on his nose and fire a few shoots, I may be lucky and get one right on the eyes. My 4 years old used to respond to the iTTL pre-flash, I got quite a few closed eyes shots, that's why I normally use manual mode for the SB-600. As I was playing with commander mode which uses pre-flash, burst of shoots should help. And then there is the fast spinning dance action shots, I have tried many times with my D50 using single shot mode and never got one I really happy with.

regards,
Patrick.

[gstark]

THanks for the clarification, Patrick.

As others have suggested, I hope the burst of shoots will help me get a good expression, avoid the half-closed eyes and even the focus. My 10 months old will rock back and fore to a song he likes, he also likes to crawl toward me when he sees the camera, if I focus on his nose and fire a few shoots, I may be lucky and get one right on the eyes.

Have you had a look at how dynamic focus works on the D300? You should be able to choose a focus point, set it on the area that you wish to have in focus, and then the camera should follow that point as it moves within your viewfinder, adjusting focus to suit.

Also, what aperture are you shooting at, and with what glass? Shooting at f/8 with, say, a 35mm or 50mm f/1.8 lens should help to give you (and your children) more wriggle room, so to speak. These lenses are quite inexpensive, and one of these (either/or, or the 50mm f/1.4) should be in everyone's kit.

My 4 years old used to respond to the iTTL pre-flash, I got quite a few closed eyes shots, that's why I normally use manual mode for the SB-600.

Interesting. One of the original design goals of the pre-flash was to trigger the blinking in your subjects, causing them to blink at the first pre-flash, and then to also close down their iris to help reduce red eye. By the time that your real flash is triggered, their eyes should be open, with reduced iris size. That was the theory, anyway.

Can you switch the SB-600 into traditional A mode? If so, mount it on the camera, point it towards the ceiling (45 degrees, or use a good reflector, or a strobe mounted softbox) and try shooting that way. Set the camera to M, 1/160 (or whatever sync speed you've set on the camera), f-stop to be the same setting that you've set on the SB-600.

You may need to pull your aperture back to f/5.6 or f/4 to pull the flash power back a little, but with the D300, consider shooting at ISO 800 to again give yourself some more headroom. Indeed, if the room is well lit or has plenty of windows, you may find that you can do without the flash completely, or pull it back so that it just acts as fill only.

I'm sure others will offer their suggestions, so hopefully you will have plenty to think about in terms of different ways of addressing the issues that you are seeing.

[pwoo]

Have you had a look at how dynamic focus works on the D300? You should be able to choose a focus point, set it on the area that you wish to have in focus, and then the camera should follow that point as it moves within your viewfinder, adjusting focus to suit.

I am trying to learn how best to use it. I am experimenting with various setting in a3 and a4. Are you suggesting I should use the 51 points with 3D tracking? I think it is cool but may be I need to tune the "a4: Focus tracking with lock on". On 'head shot' where the eye is about the size of one AF point, it tried to follow with some success. But sometimes it jump to the eyebrow, the nose or the sideburn. I am trying to move the camera to track the eye also, may be I am interfering too much.

Also, what aperture are you shooting at, and with what glass? Shooting at f/8 with, say, a 35mm or 50mm f/1.8 lens should help to give you (and your children) more wriggle room, so to speak. These lenses are quite inexpensive, and one of these (either/or, or the 50mm f/1.4) should be in everyone's kit.

So far I have only tried the 50mm f1.8 on the D300s. I used aperture from f2.2 to f4, I will try f5.6 or higher. My house is messy, I was wishing the shallow DoF will hide some of the distraction.

Can you switch the SB-600 into traditional A mode? If so, mount it on the camera, point it towards the ceiling (45 degrees, or use a good reflector, or a strobe mounted softbox) and try shooting that way. Set the camera to M, 1/160 (or whatever sync speed you've set on the camera), f-stop to be the same setting that you've set on the SB-600.

You may need to pull your aperture back to f/5.6 or f/4 to pull the flash power back a little, but with the D300, consider shooting at ISO 800 to again give yourself some more headroom. Indeed, if the room is well lit or has plenty of windows, you may find that you can do without the flash completely, or pull it back so that it just acts as fill only.

The SB-600 doesn't have A mode. I was shooting with iso 400, I will try iso 800 or higher. Thanks for the advice.

Regards
Patrick