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You tell me Nikon fan boys

I'm going to buy my first DSLR any day now - either a new 350D or a 2nd hand D70.

I'm leaning towards the 350D but why don't you guys sway me towards the D70

From what I gather the D70 has a minimum ISO of 200 - is this correct ?
Is this a little on the high side for doing long exposures where you might usualy dropped the ISO down to 100 (or lower if you can) ??

Is the 6 vs 8 megapixel thing an issue in the real world ?

The Nikon kit lens is better than the canon, but what else accounts for the higher price tag on the nikon and makes it a "better camera"

Cheers

Jay

IMHO

(a) 500 Flash sync speed.
(b) Easier menu sytem
(c) D70 can be software flashed up to D70s specs
(d) 6 - 8 Mp does not make a real difference in the real world. Not compared to film.
(e) You can operate the Nikon Lens system back to Ais days (with manual metering) That means access to a lot of great Lenses.
(f) ISO 200 has never bothered me, however others may have a differing opinion.
(g) Majority of Nikon Lenses are Black

However one point in the opposition is that you need to buy a specific off camera flash to operate TTL

How about a new D50? The differences between it and a D70 are subtle. If you are in Sydney try Discount digital or ECS, Grey market but maybe better than second hand.

I think you need to decide what glass you want to buy down the track, as well as what you want to use the camera for.

If you already have Nikon or Canon glass, I would stick with that brand.

You wont notice a big difference between 6 and 8 megapixels.

The 350D has a small plastic body, the D70(s) is a much more solid (and heavier) body.

So maybe you should head in to your local camera store and try each of them out?

Jay,
I think you're going about this the wrong way.
Both Nikon and Canon make very good cameras, but you say that you are going to buy your first DSLR. I have to assume that the reason for doing this is to be able to change lenses as this is the only thing that you cant do with a top of the range compact digital camera. If that's the case then you need to look at the lenses offered by both manufacturers.
Sure the camera has to feel good in your hands, but camera bodies will come and go but you will still use your lenses. To me, the nikon kit lens is the best reason to choose the D70 kit over the 350D kit.

Jay, Dave has given some good advice (as has Ivan and Philip). Rather than people write pragraphs about one feature or the other, why don't you suggest some of your applications or style of photography. This may help people highlight different aspects to suit you.

I was in the same boat a year ago - 350D or D70s.

I tried both in the camera shops, read lots of reviews, talked to a few people that owned Canon or Nikon.

I ended up deciding on the D70s, even if it was a bit more expensive. I like the ergonomics of the camera more. The ISO 200 lower limit certainly has not been a problem with long exposures. If you are really into long exposures, the Nikon D50 is supposed to be much better in that category. You probably shouldn't discount the D50 in your search for a camera.

I didn't have glass to worry about, so either one would have been fine for me.

I think that you will find that either camera will do what you want. For me, the limiting factor is what is behind the viewfinder

Looking forward to some photos when you get your camera.

cheers,

André

I agree with Radar 100%

If its low light and you dont like sensor noise; go for canon. At high ISO, they show more noise control than nikon.

The only other thing is that besides the entry level (D50 and 350XT) and pro (D2X and 1D II) camera's both nikon and canon dont have product ranges that compete against each other at the medium end.

nikon D70s; D200
Canon 30D; 5D.

DStrom wrote:The 350D has a small plastic body, the D70(s) is a much more solid (and heavier) body

The smaller lighter body of the 350D actually appeals to me for portability, especially while overseas. I won't be knocking it around either way so hopefully the toughness of it won't come into play!

I've had a play with both in the shop but it's hard to really tell when you're just standing there and fiddling with settings!

Lens upgrades won't be a big deal and they're not something I'll ever spend much on. Which ever one I end up getting I'll grab a 50mm f1.8 to use in addition to the kit lens and a cheap telephoto down the track if I go nikon.

Ivanerrol, what does the 500 Flash sync speed do for you ? If it's in relation to external flashes I probabyl won't ever use one. (no plans to buy one)

If I'm going to buy new I'd rather the 350D over the D50. The only reason I'm looking at the D70 is that it's supposedly better, I just have to weigh up if it's worth buying 2nd hand for features I may not use/need

Ivanerrol wrote:(a) 500 Flash sync speed.

Irrelevant due to the minimum ISO difference unless you frequently shoot with flash at 1/500 s and 1/250 s is too slow for you.

It pretty much comes down to ergonomics, go to your local camera store and hold both in your hands, play with the controls and menus, then choose the one you prefer!

WHat you're going to be shooting is important.

So too is how the camera feels in your hands. To me, the lower end Canons feel cheap and shoddy, very plasticy, and not at all solid. This also means that they feel as if they're more willing to break under more testing circumstances.

I also find Nikon ergonomics are, and have been, far better; this is going back over 30 years of experience with both brands of camera. Both manufacturers make excellent glass when you get into the higher end glasses, at the bottom end, the Nikkor kit lens is way better than the Canon kit lens.

The D70 with the 18-70 lens as standard is wery well balanced choice. The Canon 350 is smaller and its standard lens just isnt in the same league as the 18-70. With Canon you get a good camera with an inferior lens and with Nikon you get a good camera with a matching lens.

I had had my D70 for about six months when my mate bought the 350D. It was too small for his hands and the menu was awkward and the standard lens was pretty ordinary. He has since sold his and moved onto the 30D. I still have my D70 because it does all the stuff for me at the moment.

IMHO D70 leaves the Canon for dead. Mind you I am biased.

Try Sony.

Peter Mc

I'd highly recommend heading out to your local camera store for an evaluation - take a CF card with you. If you don't have one, you're going to need a compact flash card with either of these cameras when you buy them.

Heres the differences of why I went with a D70 rather than the 300D (at the time, but still apply to the 350D mostly):

* feel of the D70 body - it's a personal preference thing, but the D70 just has a better presence and feels more robust... and I've tested this accidentally. It still works, the lens hood isn't looking real good after the mishap but everything else is just fine.

* flash sync speed: 1/500 (D70/s) to 1/200 (350D)

* flash system - the wireless iTTL with the SB600/800 is great. The Nikon CLS (Creative Lighting System) is a hidden gem of the Nikon flash system. Even better should you upgrade at a later date to a D200/D2 series.

* kit lens - the D70 kit lens is AF-S SWM or in Canon speak USM. The 18-70DX is a winner for the price. Compare the weight and build of the 18-70DX to the Canon EF-S 18-55. I cant remember exactly, but I don't think the Canon kit 18-15 is USM.

* the controls just made sense (TM) on the D70. I also prefer the display layout with the info screen on the top, main display on the back.

* metering - spot metering on the D70

* lens compatibility for my limited collection of Nikon MF lenses.


The choice to go Nikon or Canon wasn't one of those religious fanboy things - I have fully manual gear from both manufacturers. I couldn't use my Canon FD mount lenses on any EOS digital gear though.

6MP vs 8MP. Not worth getting all concerned about. It helps sell the 350D in Harvey Norman, Domayne and Bing Lee.

I recently had the choice to purchase a D2h (4.1MP) or D200 (10.2) for around the same price. I purchased the D2h, and in some ways the image quality beats that coming out of the D70 using the same lenses (this is not to say the D70 is rubbish, it's just that MP doesn't necessarily determine image quality).

The marking puff re MP is everywhere - I recently was in a cafe slurping ny coffee with the D2h on the table after a photo outing. Some guy comes up to me and we have a discussion about photography for a while. The conversation included:

guy: "hey, thats a big arse camera! How many megapixel?"
me: "four"
guy: "that's pretty crap! My Kodak easyshare xxx has 8!"
me: "it's a PJ/sports camera. It'll have 8 frames off by the time a compact is ready for its first".
guy: "oh.."

ISO 200 vs 100 - I've never really seen ISO 200 as a limiting factor. There's a post on this forum where Killakoala talks about the native output of a CCD/CMOS.
The Canon IXUS 60 as a base ISO of 80. While being a very good compact, probably doesn't compare with a DSLR for long exposures.


Another thing to consider would be the access to Nikon bargains that are made available through our resources here.

Whatever you decide, make sure you physically handle the gear before buying - it may swing you one way or the other. It's no good being great on paper, and a POS to use in the field.

Neither the 350D or the D70/s are bad cameras - they have their differences and some of those differences make for a better match for your needs.

edit: whoops - post cross over. bleh, some it might be relevant for future searchers.

Others have said it and I support it. Don't discount the D50 in your search for a Dslr.
I have one and whilst I don't profess to know much about Dslr's, for the money I'm more than happy with the photos I get from it. Sure it lacks some of the functionality of the d70s. But the d70s lacks some of the features of the d200, where do you stop?

Here is an extensive review atdpreview that helped sway my decision to buy it. Well that and the $999 price tag. Sure I don't see it being the camera for me forever and a day, but for an entry to dslr's it's not a bad option. Plus with the $$$ you save you can get another lens.

Hyena wrote:The smaller lighter body of the 350D actually appeals to me for portability, especially while overseas. I won't be knocking it around either way so hopefully the toughness of it won't come into play!

if that is what is important to you then get the canon, it just depends on where your priorities are.

Hyena wrote:Lens upgrades won't be a big deal and they're not something I'll ever spend much on. Which ever one I end up getting I'll grab a 50mm f1.8 to use in addition to the kit lens and a cheap telephoto down the track if I go nikon.

I disagree, if upgrades wont be an issue, you still need to consider the lens you are getting with the camera. As such you will need to determine what kind of shooting you do. If you were happy with the range your old camera gave you, then look for a lens with a similar range.

Also if you pick the right lens you wont need to upgrade down the track, if you pick the wrong one you will find that you will want to upgrade.

Hyena wrote:If I'm going to buy new I'd rather the 350D over the D50. The only reason I'm looking at the D70 is that it's supposedly better, I just have to weigh up if it's worth buying 2nd hand for features I may not use/need

The D50 shares most of its components with the D70 as did the D70 with the D100. It also improves on its jpg noise levels over the D70. I think the biggest difference is the memory type used and the control layout on the actual camera.

In the end you need to pick which camera best fits your needs and stop listening to us

I'll ask a different question:
Why have you posted this in the Nikon thread? If you are at the point that you don't need any of the Canon owners here to tell you why the 350D is better than the D70 then you've already made your decision IMHO and are now just quelling a few last minute doubts - go buy the 350D

Of course if my assumption is wrong, then you should be asking this in the more general sections (or asking for this thread to be moved) where some canon owners will no doubt give helpful comments as well.

Please note: This is an observation, NOT a criticism.

EDIT: have you seen this comparison chart on DPReview?

Have to say either Nikon or Canon systems would more than satisfy your photography cravings. Its the little things that differientiate the camera's and even those things are subjective and only you can make that decision for yourself. Even with all these comments from people here.

Same argument in mountain biking, should I buy, the giant, the trek, the specialised etc. Same issue as cameras - components are basically the same, ergonomics and features the main difference. Then the only limiting factor is price - for your money, the more you spend, the better you get.

But my recommendation to folks who are buying their first MTB (see my site at http://www.nobmob.com) is always - don't overspend. but don't buy crap. Your first MTB or camera - what if you decide it's not for you in a year? Then you have all that guilt over spending too much money.

So set your budget, go for the best body and lens combo that you can get (be it new or second-hand, remember, first time out). No matter what you get, you are going to learn a lot of lessons.

Once you've learned those - then you will really know what you want!!!

So - what's the best you can get for your budget?

stubbsy wrote:If you are at the point that you don't need any of the Canon owners here to tell you why the 350D is better than the D70 then you've already made your decision IMHO and are now just quelling a few last minute doubts - go buy the 350D

Right you are stubbsy!
I had largely decided on the 350D but if you guys can sell me the Nikon as being superior then I'll go with that.

The 350D I can just walk in and buy tomorrow, the D70 will be 2nd hand and I'll either have to hunt around and/or have one shipped to me (not the end of the world really)

I figured Nikon users could better tell me about D70s and it's good to here their side about what may be the short comings of the canon.

Thanks for the the dpreview comparo, I hadn't seen that one

petermmc wrote:The D70 with the 18-70 lens as standard is wery well balanced choice. The Canon 350 is smaller and its standard lens just isnt in the same league as the 18-70. With Canon you get a good camera with an inferior lens and with Nikon you get a good camera with a matching lens.

That's probably the biggest factor that would influence me to buy the D70,
the better quality and a little extra zoom over the Canon. Having the Nikon as the main walk around lens is more preferable, especially when the canon equilavents are fairly pricey and out pretty tight budget.

nito wrote:Have to say either Nikon or Canon systems would more than satisfy your photography cravings.

Yeah either way I'll be happy, but I just want to make the best choice for the money. I've held and fiddled with both but as I said it's hard to tell in a shop, and both being a new feeling to me it's hard to tell which I prefer. Neither feels awkward and I don't have big hands so the smaller size of the 350D doesn't bother me as it seems to with others.

I am a novice photographer and new to digital. I did a quick review of what was available and purchased a D70 with 2 basic lenses (not including the standard kit lens) then started to play. I quickly discovered some of the advantages (for me) of digital photography. But I also discovered that the lenses that I initially bought were not as good as I would have liked.

Then I discovered this forum. I have upgraded the initial lenses and am enjoying taking photos even more. Now as I learn more and see more photo opportunities I am lusting over different lenses. If only my technique could improve as easily as upgrading a lens.
Thanks to the forum I was able to get a larger memory card at a great price and various other accessories - and the lust goes on....

If you can be sure you get the right lenses up front you may not need to upgrade them but you may wish to upgrade your camera down the track.

Cheers,
Mick

I dont remember commenting on the above subject for this thread.

nito - are you saying you did not make the post at 2:15 in your name?

Jay, it is like this. The majority of people here have a DSLR, they have been through the process of deciding which brand and made a choice.

Some had long term alliegances to Nikon or Canon, for them it was pretty straightforward, particularly if they already owned lenses.

Others (including me) had nothing but a straight choice. The result of that choice tells you how the process ended up. I went for the D70 over the 300. Now I have several lenses, I am Nikon for ever. Just got a D200.

One note - this forum started life in 2004 as a D70 forum, and we didn't really have any Canon members until mid 2005. Consequently, there are more Nikon owners here than Canon.

So why is this thread arguing if the D70 is better than sex when I see people comparing the 350D to the D70?

The 350D is certainly not sex.

I mean, it's uncomfortable for me to hold, it's plasticy, and it's cheap... now wait a minute... it might have a lot in common with sex...

Greg B wrote:nito - are you saying you did not make the post at 2:15 in your name?

I did make the post. But not on why the D70 is better than sex. Unless a 350=sex.

nito wrote:

Greg B wrote:nito - are you saying you did not make the post at 2:15 in your name?

I did make the post. But not on why the D70 is better than sex. Unless a 350=sex.

No, not 350 maybe 69 but definitely not 350

We need a Canon 53X... that's about the closest model that would exist for sex.

Nnnnsic wrote:I mean, it's uncomfortable for me to hold, it's plasticy, and it's cheap... now wait a minute... it might have a lot in common with sex...

Hrrrmmmm - Leigh holding a shiney silver plastic thing - there's an image sure to put any potential Canon purchaser off!

Nnnnsic wrote:So why is this thread arguing if the D70 is better than sex when I see people comparing the 350D to the D70?

The 350D is certainly not sex.

I mean, it's uncomfortable for me to hold, it's plasticy, and it's cheap... now wait a minute... it might have a lot in common with sex...

Leigh the title was originally "Why a D70 is better than a 350D". SOme time this afternoon 350D was changed to sex. Not sure of the cause.

So '350D' magically changes into 'sex' within a few hours. Does this mean if you buy a 350D you're going to end up paying for sex?

Hi,

I find this an intiguing discussion (the canon v nikon I mean, I think if you believe a D70 to be better than sex its time to visit your local shrink).

I am the mate in petermmc's posting. I would like to add that after he owned a D70 for six months he advised me to buy a canon 350D! I moved on to a 30D reasonably quickly (did I mention petermmc is looking to get a 200D). So the lesson is if you really start getting into photography you will want more!

I am extremely happy with the Canon 30D and would humbly suggest that you might try getting a Canon 20D. Since the 30D came out the 20D's are very cheap and that is a better camera than the Nikon D70.

On the Canon/Nikon thing. Nikon make excellent cameras. In fact when I followed petermmc's advice and bought a canon I was a bit annoyed at first because if I had gone for a D70 as well I could have used all his lenses. However, now that I am in the Canon world, Canon does seem to be a bit less expensive than the Nikon (at least in the entry level and mid range where this humble enthusiast sits).

Finally, I found the 350D was an excellent start for me. However, the 30D is so much more solid. Once I started to buy some good glass the 350D just wasn't as good (For example autofocus on the 30D is much faster on my Sigma 24-70 2.

all the best

Phil

I think personally that the 30D is the camera the 20D should've been, and the 350 as well as the 300 should've been similar build quality to the D70.

However, build quality is one area that Canon has usually always been inferior to Nikons when it comes to price.

Nnnnsic wrote:I think personally that the 30D is the camera the 20D should've been, and the 350 as well as the 300 should've been similar build quality to the D70.

However, build quality is one area that Canon has usually always been inferior to Nikons when it comes to price.

I can sure vouch for the 20D vs 30D comment. Played with both those camera's but the most annoying thing I found that hasnt been fixed isthe odd mashing of buttons to change a settings.

Also, the D50 button mashing isnt great either. But then again it is a lower model class.

I don’t think I’m biased; I’m an eos film camera owner and almost laid good money down for a 300d. I never contemplated jumping ship but after playing with the d70 and 300 side by side in the store there was no way I was getting the canon.
I was used to a solid well built camera and I felt that going from my eos to the 300 was downgrading as it felt like a cheap camera.
Personally I don’t think you can compare the 350 to a d70, you need to compare it to the d50 as they both handle very similarly. The d70 is a step up from the d50 and overall is a better camera that both that and the 350d.
If you want to stick with canon, and don’t mind buying second hand get a 20d or a new 30d, that’s more in line with the d70 specs and is a nice camera. if birdy hadnt done such a good deal i think thats where i would have headed.
Plus with some money you can stick a beautiful white lens on it that just screams pro.
Hopefully my new d200 will knock off my memories of those old canon days.

obzelite wrote:Plus with some money you can stick a beautiful white lens on it that just screams pro.

You need at least two bodies to look pro. Right Wendell?

Nnnnsic wrote:So why is this thread arguing if the D70 is better than sex when I see people comparing the 350D to the D70?

Jesus, even I'm confused now and I started the thread!

Looks like one of the mods has been playing silly buggers

philh wrote:now that I am in the Canon world, Canon does seem to be a bit less expensive than the Nikon (at least in the entry level and mid range where this humble enthusiast sits)

Yeah looking around I noticed that the equilavent nikon lenses do seem a bit dearer and not as many around (2nd hand or otherwise) as the Canons. Oh well, such is life.

I'm leaning the towards the D70 now - curse my indecisiveness!

Thanks for all your input guys

Canon or nikon, or Fuji or Pentax or whatever.......

The only reason I chose the D70 over the 10D (at the time) was I prefered the way the D70 felt in the hand. Which is ironic given the name of this thread.....

MCWB wrote:So '350D' magically changes into 'sex' within a few hours. Does this mean if you buy a 350D you're going to end up paying for sex?

I think Canon's response to the new Dwhatever should be interesting.

f the 30D and D200 are in the same league then the 350D has a lot of competition in both the D50 and the existing D70s and the new Dwhatever.

The 300D started a revolution and its evolution 350D is rapidly becoming yesterday's hero...not at all a sex symbol.

I think Nikon is really bolstering the amatuer to semipro market which is where the volume sales are. Good on them. If they could only deliver a bit more quickly, we could all buy more from them.

Peter Mc

Well I've made my decision, the D70 it is!
Hopefully it'll be making its way into my hands in a few days.

Stay tuned for a number of average shots in need of much C&C

I'm sure you will enjoy your new acquisition. Have fun.
Cheers,
Mick

Thanks, when it arrives I will advise re: the D70 being better than sex...

Just beware of mirror slap!



Enjoy; I'm sure you will.