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Ok thought I'd fire this Nikon board up a little, as it seems to have been quite quiet recently - be aware thought that both are a little critical of Nikon...

New D610 is about to come out with pretty much exactly the same specs as the D600, except the sensor 'oiling up issue' rectified. Not sure if Nikon ever truly 'came clean' about this one [pun intended!] but does anyone else feel a little disappointed at the way Nikon has handled this from a PR point-of-view?

It seems pretty clear this was a real problem [so many complaints from otherwise pro-Nikon people, and seemed genuine enough] but Nikon actually never 'put their hand up' and said yes, we have a problem. Offered solutions like 1. clean it yourself, or if that doesn't work 2. take it in to Nikon and we'll clean it up free of charge, but never to my knowledge an honest admission that: "yes, there is a problem, and we'll fix it up for you in an upcoming model"...

I tend to agree that this one was swept under the carpet.

I think Nikon have shown their intent by making a jump of only 10 from 600 to 610

Japanese find it difficult to express that they made an error. It's a cultural thing. I was told by a manager who worked over there they would sit in front of a computer all day long rather than put up their hand and say the program had crashed. Now...about that war in China....and about that D600.

The D600/D610 is really a stupid move...what ever happened to the Nikon that recalled the D5000 and recalled them again when they found a better fix? Something has gone amiss with Nikon over the last few years.

As for the inability to admit errors being a cultural thing, I totally agree with you Matt.

Umm... rumour?

Feldy, I agree. Their reaction to this issue was poor. I even emailed their service asking what would happen if I got an oil splattered sensor version, they sent back a generic response 'we will fix any problems'. My loss of faith was such that when I recently misplaced a D300 I replaced it with a D7100 instead of the D600 I wanted, even though the difference was only a few hundred dollars. While I am normally comfortable to buy a model at the start of it's life as the price doesn't drop too much in the first 9 months or so, I don't think I would ever buy another Nikon at the start of it's model life. I doubt I am the only one who has lost that trust.

Still not found it Glen  PS: I have this barely used D300 for sale previous owner was forgetful so it is hardly used

Glen wrote:Feldy, I agree. Their reaction to this issue was poor. I even emailed their service asking what would happen if I got an oil splattered sensor version, they sent back a generic response 'we will fix any problems'. My loss of faith was such that when I recently misplaced a D300 I replaced it with a D7100 instead of the D600 I wanted, even though the difference was only a few hundred dollars. While I am normally comfortable to buy a model at the start of it's life as the price doesn't drop too much in the first 9 months or so, I don't think I would ever buy another Nikon at the start of it's model life. I doubt I am the only one who has lost that trust.

I am sad to hear about your D300 Glenn, another one bites the dust. Hope you enjoy the D7100 though, as for buying at the beginning of the life cycle...I am done with that.....I bought my D700 just as the D800 was arriving and I cannot see a camera that I want more...not even a D4.

Chris I probably left it at your place! Thanks Cameron! I think you are right, there is some merit in buying later in the lifecycle

Nikon have form on this issue. The D800 was pilloried for months for a focus issue that was verified by such reliable scribes as Thom Hogan.

Yet Nikon sat on their hands and said nothing. They did fix some sensors under warranty and replaced some cameras (particularly in the US) but there was no acknowledgement of a fault.

I can't think of a more damaging strategy in the 21st century than to ignore customer complaints. Marketing 101.

don't know what effect it will have on confidence in their brand, but have to say it got me thinking... firstly, I was going to go full frame and held off because of the 'oil issue'. Secondly I've always gone straight for Nikon/Nikkor when I wanted a lens, and was thinking it's about time I picked up a 24-70. Have used a friend's one a couple of times, and it is a pretty useful range [especially on DX].

However, in the light of recent Nikon quality 'issues' I decided to broaden my horizons a little - read up about the new Tamron 24-70 Vr and have to say it came up looking a pretty good option, especially at 2/3 price of the Nikon. Well decided to take the plunge, and have to say I'm impressed - beautiful images and also great form factor - egonomically I like the 'feel' of it better than the Nikon 24-70 on my D300 and absolutely no complaints about IQ; have to say, so far I'm very pleased...

Tamron make good glass, and their quality is consistent. When it comes to ultimate IQ, it's not as good as Nikkor, but it also doesn't cost what you'll pay for Nikkor.

Nikon's problem is that it is isn't Canon.. Or is that Fuji?

gstark wrote:Tamron make good glass, and their quality is consistent. When it comes to ultimate IQ, it's not as good as Nikkor, but it also doesn't cost what you'll pay for Nikkor.

mmm... I guess the point is, I'm a 'rusted-on' Nikon person. What, if anything, have episodes like this done to the Nikon brand, and it's reputation for quality?

ozimax wrote:Nikon's problem is that it is isn't Canon.. Or is that Fuji?

actually Ozimax, used the money that I would have spent on the D600, expanding my horizons equipment-wise... one of the units I bought was the Fuji X10 - amazing little unit with great IQ; based on that, have to say the X100 & XPro must be amazing!

Glen wrote:I replaced it with a D7100 instead of the D600 I wanted.... I don't think I would ever buy another Nikon at the start of it's model life

Huh? - the D7100 is newer than the D600 so you have bought a Nikon at the start of it's model life?

feldy wrote:the new Tamron 24-70 Vr and have to say it came up looking a pretty good option, especially at 2/3 price of the Nikon.... and absolutely no complaints about IQ; have to say, so far I'm very pleased...

Yep - have heard very good things about this lens (and with VC too) - altho shooting on DX crop vs FX can hide a lot of things given that most of the letdown with many lenses is around the periphery.
If the Tamron 24-70 had a 77mm front thread rather than 82mm I'd be all over it (because I'd be using it with my Lee filter kit half the time) - FYI I'm in the market for a 24-70 or 24-120 right now

Hi Remorhaz, I viewed the D7100 as a D7000 in a party dress rather than a brand new model like the D600, which I thought was pretty impressive in bringing FF to a new price point. I am also guessing the D610 is just a D600 in clean party dress, rather than anything new. Probably wrong on both counts!

Glen wrote:Hi Remorhaz, I viewed the D7100 as a D7000 in a party dress rather than a brand new model like the D600, which I thought was pretty impressive in bringing FF to a new price point. I am also guessing the D610 is just a D600 in clean party dress, rather than anything new. Probably wrong on both counts!

Although realistically on that front the D600 is the D7000 (& D800) in a new party dress - take the body of the D7000 including the AF module, the whole user ergonomics and controls pretty much verbatim and stuff a downsized D800 sensor in it and you get a D600 (I have both a D7000 and D600 and chose the D600 because I much prefer the consumer ergonomics and mode dial to the Pro bodies (D700/800/3/4...) and then I can easily switch between the D7000 & D600 (because they are basically identical in end user regard)

The D7100 has lots of new other advancements over a D7000 so I reckon it's further away from the D7000 than the D600 is

I still don't believe the D610 rumour - if it's just a D600 with the only change being a new shutter mechanism (maybe if it got the newer and much better D7100 AF as well?)

FYI - when I got my D600 repaired a few weeks ago (after pretty much destroying lots of it on rocks) it got a whole new shutter mechanism (amongst other things) and the Nikon tech told me it got the "new" re-engineered shutter mechanism thats in all of the latest/current D600's shipping (presumably to "fix" the dust/oil spots problem). So given all the D600's coming out of Nikon now already have the "new" shutter I can't see them releasing a D610 in name which is essentially identical to the already currently shipping D600's?

Looks like the 600 has been 'de-listed' in the US, presumably in anticipation of release of D610.

Kinda interesting; took a quick look at the Amazon reviews for the D600 - all pretty much saying the same thing: great camera except for one 'fatal flaw'.

Especially interesting to me (considering I almost bought one under the same assumption) was the number of people who said they bought a D600 a number of months post-release, under the assumption that Nikon would have fixed the shutter dust/oil leak, only to find that they hadn't. I can understand Nikon thinking they could get away with something like that in a small mkt like Australia, but have to say I'm surprised they thought they could get away with it in the US, where customer service really counts.

the view of one D600 owner - thought it might be interesting for those following this thread: http://www.radiantlite.com/2013/10/niko ... -d600.html

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 POSTSCRIPT: have a quick read of this article from Petapixel: http://petapixel.com/2013/11/08/nikon-c ... ome-subpar [Gary, assuming link is OK since it's a relevant link?]

Both of the major DSLR manufacturers' profits down but NIkon by a whopping 41%… there are obviously a number of reasons contributing to this [including most obviously, move to smartphones] but interesting that the NIkon result is so much worse… the marketing person in me would say that this demonstrates the hit that Nikon has taken to the brand by treating D600 owners with such contempt.

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No issues with the link.

I don't think you can put these issues down to just one or two models failing to perform; I think the problems go much deeper, and are due to entirely different reasons that remain largely unmentioned in that article: as consumers of these bodies, we are largely both bored and satisfied with what's on offer today, and the manufacturers are now bringing out new bodies but with little in the way of substantive features.

Let's start by looking at the market as it stands: at the very high end, we have what we all must agree are some absolutely superlative cameras: the D800, and D4 from Nikon, and the various 1D models plus the 5D3 from Canon. In all seriousness, as photographers, what more do we really need? Sure, no camera is perfect, and no one body will suit everyone's needs, but one thing is certain, and that is that these are all very fine cameras, guaranteed to help us all pull in some truly great images.

Let's look at the D600 transition to the D610. Better shutter, but little else: it's just a bunch of minor refinements, and maybe some reaction to the issues with the D600.

But how long has the D300 been out for, now? Even the 5D3 is well over a year old.

My contention is that the manufacturers are, by and large, running out of genuine improvements with which to tempt us, and perhaps that's why we are seeing the Df? Helps ammortise the D4's sensor cost while offering something that is somewhat different in its appearance, and perhaps market focus. I will admit that I'm quite excited about it, most likely because it seems to borrow so heavily (in its industrial design) from such wonderful cameras as the FE and FM. How many of us lament the strength of those cameras from the '70s and '80s? Perhaps this is an attempt to move back into bodies that are inherently stronger than what we currently see, but, at the end of the day, this is just a different mix of existing components, with very little that is actually new.

Which brings me back to my earlier point: we are spoiled for chioice, and we are largely satisfied with the current offerings from Nikon and Canon. They are struggling to make new sales because they have saturated the market with some pretty good tools. Just because some dickhead in marketing thinks they should be selling more of product X doesn't alter the fact that he's a dickhead.

In marketing.

Off with his head!

interestingly I read that Nikon's profit dropped 41% in the last year [granted it's been a tough time for camera-makers, but Canon only dropped 9%] - if I was the Board, I'd be asking why… [nothing to do with poor brand image, by any chance?]

Interestingly also, just read a news item on Petapixel that Nikon's shares are the worst-performing in Japan [Nikkei index] this year - down almost 24% while the index as a whole is up 49% - wow!!