Inverted Pentagrams, circle in square, numbers in the univer

[dooda]

I just returned from a trip to Utah ( I have no pics). Great boarding and met up with some friends etc etc.

In my wife's home church there is a professional photographer that teaches at Brigham Young University. I introduced myself to him and asked him if I could see some of his work. He replied sure and I went to his home later that night. I thought I would share my experience with you as many here express an interest in heavy meaningful symbols of numbers etc, not to mention Onyx is a Latter Day Saint and would find this ( I think) completely and utterly scintillating).

He began to show me some of his projects and I was purely blown away with the infusion of intellect and spirituality of his art.

What struck me was that he actually wanted to talk about photography very little, and spoke more about his concepts and goals. He is working on a project about sacred symbols, numbers, places and colors and how it relates to nature, spirit, religion, and humanity. He went into the importance of the number 7, how we go about teaching numbers the wrong way as we show how they interact without discussing in depth their meaning and what they mean in the universe. He wants to come to BC to photograph and present how they and pillars are similitudes of holy trees that have been worshipped in various religions throughout history including a powerful image in the Book of Mormon, he documented many of the symbols of the Catholic churche architecture, the significance of Stone circles like Stone Henge and the circle in Scotland, as well as the spirituality and meaning of stone throughout time (how mountains and high places were used as temples) as well as the significance of clouds and how they relate to God. He talked to me about the spiral and the inverted pentagram as well as the powerful imagery of the square in a circle (which happens to be one of the more popular photo themes in Flickr. The triangle as well and the number 3 he discussed. He told me that symbology use to be a universal way of expressing meaning that transcended the fallibility of spoken language, and we are losing the ability to interpret symbols. His photography and skill in PS is unparralelled to anything I have seen. His last name is Brinkerhoff. He couldn't give me the web site as it is still copywritten and he has tens of thousands sunk into the project he doesn't want it getting ripped off or whatever until his book came out.

He completely blew my mind. At first I was hoping he would take a look at some of my photos and as we went into his project I realized that my stuff was so mundane and an extension of my ego, I was truly humbled. His skill at photography was merely a vehicle for expressing his passionate research and intellect, which is so different from how I approach the field. It made me think about how I will use the skill that I'm slowly honing, and what kind of meaning I want to infuse into it.

He recommended a book that has had a deep effect on him, and it concerns numbers and I wanted to repeat his recommendation here to people like Greg B who may have already read it. It's called, "The Beginners guide to Constructing the Universe". Anyways I can't possibly duplicate here our tremendous conversation, but I thought about this forum and some of the people on here and wanted to share with you some of it. When the book comes out I'll be sure to get the web address and post here.

[stubbsy]

Dooda

Sounds like this was a very powerful visit for you. Thanks for sharing some of the info.

[Glen]

This obviously was quite a visit, look forward to seeing the work which caused this reaction (though it will be not as impressive without the author)

[dooda]

Forgot to mention. I mentioned some of my problems with posterizing etc. He said, "you shoot in Raw right". I looked to the floor blankly. "Please tell me you shoot in RAW" No response from me, I slowly shook my head. He took me through his RAW setup, he teaches a class on PS CS as well. It was definitly time well spent. Made me realize the difference in the odd great pic (but randomn one) you see here, and the stuff that gets published and recognized. They are more than photos. He told me the best photography is when you don't notice it.

Another thing that surprised me is that he didn't have huge blow-ups of his pictures everywhere, just cheezy water colors. He saw me looking around and explained "It always seemed a little egomaniacal to blow up all my pics". Man if I had pics like that...you'd know it.

[Onyx]

Dooda, it seems you've had a spiritual awakening of another kind this past weekend. That chap sounds like very interesting.

I guess it highlights once again how photography can mean different things to different people.

[mic]

Dooda,

I can still remember when I was doing a little course after work on PSCS and seeing how this teacher just made MAGIC happen. I'll never forget that moment, I got shivers down my spine and the hairs stood up on the back of my neck ( and that was after a shave )

I'm still learning everyday, but one day, one day I'll be as good if not better than the teacher ( I hope )

It's great when you get to see the light, it gives you a lot of hope & enthusiasm to go forward and bring out whats hideing inside us.

Mic.

[Greg B]

Very interesting post dooda. I haven't read "The Beginner's Guide to Constructing the Universe" but it sounds like something I would like - I am going to chase it up.

The question of how we view symbols, colours, numbers etc depends to an enormous degree on our own personal perspective. I don't believe that symbols or shapes have any spiritual qualities. Many have very well defined associations, the Jewish Star of David, the Christian Cross, the Nazi Swastika being three obvious examples which everyone would know.

Shapes have many fascinating geometrical properties, and some have been adopted by different belief systems. You mention the powerful imagery of the square in a circle. The power of the imagery, in my view, is entirely in the imagination of the viewer. If the viewer thinks it is powerful, then for that person, it is. However, I don't believe there is any intrinsic power. It is just a couple of juxtaposed shapes. Pagans and witches are very keen on pentagrams or pentangles. Again, shapes.

There may be aesthetic considerations - some things look more pleasing than others - and such considerations are valuable to the photographer.

Numbers are even more interesting (for me). I have often wondered whether our number system, which has so many extraordinary properties and mysteries, was invented or discovered. Think about that one for a while! Whichever it may be, I don't consider any numbers as having any spiritual qualities. They are just numbers, fascinating, complex, mysterious, and wonderful, but they are just numbers.

This forum has a love of 42. And there are websites devoted to the number, and all the places it pops up. But my view (and I hope Gary doesn't disenfranchise me) is that it is just a number we like because of the association with HHGTTG, and its function in that fictional context.

I love Pi, and e, and i, and primes, and lots of other numbers which have extraordinary properties. But they are just numbers.

Obviously, I am a committed atheist, so my views come from a very different angle to folks with religious beliefs.

Just as well we all love taking pictures

[dooda]

Actually The Nazi Swastika is simply a different rendition of the spiral, which is one of the most prominent patterns in nature (tornado, hurricane, whirlpool, wind, many trees, leaf growth etc).

The shapes that are adopted by different belief systems are generally adopted by many completely opposite belief systems. They must be more than simply lines connected as it is no coincidence that, say, the inverted pentagram is not only used in Christianity, but in different sects of Islam as well as different "paegan" beliefs. Though you may argue that each adopted one from another, that doesn't explain that the source and meaning of the symbol is by hap. Even the cross is a symbol adopted by different and varying religions throughout history.

I mention the circle in the square because it is used in so many schools of thought. It isn't just coincidentally a couple of shapes juxtaposed that certain people find fascinating because they associate it with their spirituality, it can't be. You look at all of the different religions that use this symbology since it's inception, then you look at Flickr, which has thousands of groups and themes, circle in a square being the most popular, I believe it does indeed touch some intrinsic law that touches us on a metaphysical level (not necessarily spiritual as the word sometimes connotes, but unseen). I do agree that the power of the image is in the imagination of the viewer, but so is the power and beauty of any image, and how that roots each of us to the unseen is still debatable.

Indeed much of this debate will fall to the semantics of a believer and an atheist, but you describe the mystery and beauty of numbers, and yet you call them just numbers. I don't really get it Greg. If they are fascinating and mysterious and wonderful, yet they are simpily numbers, the statement contradicts itself (to my reading of it). Obviously the number three or Seven has greater meaning to you than quantitative, otherwise where's the mystery (or I am misunderstanding what you mean when you say "just numbers". I'm not arguing to their spirituality (though I think I could), but I'm arguing to their symbolic power and role in the wonderful and complex laws of the universe.

There is something deep inside every human which separates us from other forms of life, and I believe that at its root exists a law that transcends language and is expressed in symbol and number. Thanks for opening up this discussion, I love sinking my teeth into discussions like these.

[Glen]

You guys like to rev up the old Swastika don't you! It's not its fault that it was misappropriated by a murderous meglamaniac. The history of the Swastika is here http://www.stewartsynopsis.com/swastika.htm It came to the Nazi's via africa and is well documented as such. It was popular in many countries before the Nazi's took it on board, even in Aus. Customs House at the Quay in Sydney has swatiskas on the floor (with a sign to explain them) and the house I presently live in, built in 1899, had them when I bought it. I would have kept them for shock value (but hopefully not offending), especially with a distant german background, but decided to relocate that bathroom. The swastika meant good luck up until about 1937 -38 to most people, it is not its fault it was stolen.

Now there is a great example of a symbol having two diametrically opposed meanings.

[Greg B]

...but you describe the mystery and beauty of numbers, and yet you call them just numbers. I don't really get it Greg. If they are fascinating and mysterious and wonderful, yet they are simpily numbers, the statement contradicts itself (to my reading of it)

Fair point Dave. I think I didn't make my meaning clear.

I guess the view I was putting forward is that the numbers themselves have no instrinsic power or meaning, and yet in our relatively straightforward number system, we have amazing things going on.

Pi is much more than just the ratio of the diameter of a circle to the circumference. It appears in other situations, particularly probability, it can be expressed as several different series of fractions, it is a non-repeating decimal and so on.

As mentioned in the prime number thread, we still do not have a formula for finding primes. Wow.

Fermat's theorem remained a mystery for a very long time, and even now the solution is not particularly pretty.

Lots of numbers have many interesting properties (although many people may find the matter stupefyingly dull).

But, and here I go again they are still just numbers.

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" - Sigmund Freud

[dooda]

Glenn,

Indeed, thanks for the info. I knew that it was a symbol that Hitler perverted, however I thought that I had learned it was a similitude to the spiral.

Greg,

I guess it depends on how you define intrinsic. The way you describe how Pi pops up in probability screams to me that it is apart of something that reaches far beyond a single equation. I feel like we have pieces of a bigger puzzle, the entire thing we haven't found yet, but that it is governed by laws that we don't fully understand yet, but somehow interact in a perfect way.
When you say that they are "just numbers", for some reason it discredits to me all of your previous statements (obviously I don't understand what you imply, and we need some sort of symbol to signify your meaning). Is that Post Modern enough for you?

[leek]

Hey moderators... Isn't it about time this thread was moved to the Nerds' section?

[mic]

If it's going to the NERDS SECTION can you take my 2cents worth out
It's seemed to have changed somewhat and going somewhere I don't know of

Mic.

[Greg B]

Hey moderators... Isn't it about time this thread was moved to the Nerds' section?

No.

[leek]

Hey moderators... Isn't it about time this thread was moved to the Nerds' section?

No.

OK... One of the other moderators??? Anyone???

[dooda]

Leek,

Maybe you should change your username to OGRE, or "Can't accept the truth". I think that relatively speaking every section on this site is a nerd section. If Ogre came in here he'd destroy us all!

[leek]

Dooda,

That's a rather strange (and maybe even offensive?) reaction to what was meant (and clearly marked) as a joke...

In case you hadn't noticed there is a new section in the forum called Nerd's Corner (not my words BTW!). This was recently set up at the request of Greg B so that things such as prime numbers and other off-topic items could be discussed at leisure without diluting the D70 and photographic subject matter in the General Discussion section.

In my original message I was merely (jokingly) suggesting that this rather esoteric discussion about numerology and symbology would be better placed in that section...

I really didn't mean any offence and carefully marked my messages with the appropriate smilies so that they would be taken in the correct way... I'm sorry that this wasn't sufficient for you to understand my intent...

[Greg B]

Dave, I have to say that when I read your reponse to leek, I was a bit puzzled. I looked a couple of times trying to understand the humorous intent, but struggled to find it. I doesn't look good on the face of it.

I am assuming that there was an angle going on in your thought process which just didn't quite translate onto the page - leek's posts were clearly humorous, you haven't ever struck me as snippy, I smell a misunderstanding.

[sirhc55]

Further to Glen’s post on the swastica I have pinched this info:

The swastika is an ancient symbol. Dating back 3,000 years, the swastika predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh. Approximately 3,000 years ago (1000 BCE), the swastika was commonly used; swastikas have been found on many artifacts such as pottery and coins dating from ancient Troy.

During the following thousand years, the image of the swastika could be found in many cultures around the world, including in China, Japan, India, and southern Europe.

By the Middle Ages, the swastika was a well known, if not commonly used, symbol but was called by many different names:

China - wan

England - fylfot

Germany - Hakenkreuz

Greece - tetraskelion and gammadion

India - swastika

Though it is not known for exactly how long, Native Americans also had long used the symbol of the swastika.

Change in Meaning


In the 1800s, countries around Germany were growing much larger, forming empires; yet Germany was not a unified country until 1871. To counter the feeling of vulnerability and the stigma of youth, German nationalists in the mid-nineteenth century began to use the swastika, because it had ancient Aryan/Indian origins, to represent a long Germanic/Aryan history.

By the end of the nineteenth century, the swastika could be found on nationalist German volkisch periodicals and was the official emblem of the German Gymnasts' League.

In the beginning of the twentieth century, the swastika was a common symbol of German nationalism and could be found in a multitude of places such as the emblem for the Wandervogel, a German youth movement; on Jörg Lanz von Liebenfels' antisemitic periodical Ostara; on various Freikorps units; and as an emblem of the Thule Society.

THE CAME THE NAZI’s

The Swastika did not originate as a Nazi symbol of hatred. "SWASTIKA" is derived from the Sanskrit word "SVASTIKAH", which means "being fortunate".

See the swastika for what it is: an ancient symbol of good luck, prosperity, and long life, used in ancient cultures such as India and China, where it is the central symbol of the FALUN Law Wheel.

[dooda]

Sorry,

That was a reference to Ogre from "Revenge of the nerds" and how he hated nerds so much that he started frenzied NERD chants. I think I saw a joke on it the other night on the Daily Show which is why it popped in my head. The rest of the joke was just about how we're all nerds in sort of a photog sort of way (atleast I am compared to my coworkers etc). So I did understand your joke completely, and was trying to add a joke on my own. I think that the OGRE character in the movie is a classic, and time has been especially kind to him. (One of my favorite scenes in the Simpsons was when Homer goes back to College and upon arrival sticks his head out of his car window and screamed NERDS at some passersby.

The post was made before I realized that there even was a NERD section so I thought that it was something that Leek made up (and feel duely quite silly). Evenso, sorry that this didn't look so good written down, every so often I slip on something like that when I don't think something through before I post. I definitly wouldn't say anything on this forum or any other for that matter that I thought was intended to be offensive or even smugly cheeky. I hate it when this happens in forums and I'm either misunderstood or I didn't think before I posted. I thought it was fairly obvious, but upon it's re-reading, I would have been just as confused.

[leek]

Sorry, That was a reference to Ogre from "Revenge of the nerds" and how he hated nerds so much that he started frenzied NERD chants.

Sorry, never seen ROTN... so the reference didn't mean a lot to me...

The post was made before I realized that there even was a NERD section so I thought that it was something that Leek made up (and feel duely quite silly).

No worries - that's what I thought...

A very wise person once told me that 99% of arguments are caused by miscommunication or misunderstanding... If one is confined to the written form only, then that % would probably increase... Luckily we didn't get that far...

Now that that's sorted, I'm off to create that post about palindromic primes... Now those are the really meaningful ones...

[dooda]

Yup,

Happened to me a lot when I first got married. We'd argue for hours until finally I would ask her "wait, what does _____ mean to you?" She'd tell me and it would be completely different to how I define that particular word. Once we sorted that out we were fine.

I don't know anyone my age that hasn't seen ROTN so I guess I assumed that everyone else had. Thinking about it now, and depending on your generation, it actually appeals to a very narrow generation. Thanks for understanding.