RAW NEF WB debate even reaches the SMH

[Glen]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/Next/Shutter ... 87209.html


Just so you understand what everyone is talking about around the water cooler this morning

[MHD]

Good news indeed...
This is something that the nikon media research team will take notice of

This is bad publicity for nikon from a mainstream media outlet, hopefully it will spur action.

[birddog114]

Good news indeed...
This is something that the nikon media research team will take notice of

This is bad publicity for nikon from a mainstream media outlet, hopefully it will spur action.

They will change their nam to "CIKON"

[sirhc55]

A bit like politics. Sell us all an idea and then when we have been sold the idea - change directions - but it is to late - we have either bought the camera or elected the polly

[gstark]

Good news indeed...
This is something that the nikon media research team will take notice of

This is bad publicity for nikon from a mainstream media outlet, hopefully it will spur action.

Mainstream media in a pitifully small market, I'm afraid.

[birddog114]

A bit like politics. Sell us all an idea and then when we have been sold the idea - change directions - but it is to late - we have either bought the camera or elected the polly

Hi Chris
Did we vote for Iraq invasion? Now we have one Aussie guy, who's waiting for a mercy or an execute and we paid tax for all those ventures

[gstark]

A bit like politics. Sell us all an idea and then when we have been sold the idea - change directions - but it is to late - we have either bought the camera or elected the polly

Hi Chris
Did we vote for Iraq invasion? Now we have one Aussie guy, who's waiting for a mercy or an execute and we paid tax for all those ventures

You're referring to Peter Costello?

[birddog114]

You're referring to Peter Costello?

Can we trust him?

[Greolt]

The article refered to at the begining of this post appeared in The Age newspaper also this morning.

Thats Melbourne's major broardsheet daily for those that don't know.

I read it this morning with interest.

Greolt

[gstark]

You're referring to Peter Costello?

Can we trust him?

He's a politician. What do you think?

[MCWB]

You're referring to Peter Costello?

Nice!!

Well if it's reached the SMH and The Age, hopefully other mainstream media will grab a hold of it too. This is a dog act, and they deserve all the bad publicity they get!

[Greg B]

The problem here has several elements.

First, many photographers become brand trapped by their lenses and accessories. It is very costly to change brands.

Second, large corporates are very arrogant, and Nikon is a prime example. They also sell as many cameras as they can produce (in the DSLR side anyway)

Third, there will be cracks available for the encrypted data, and many users who would only use legitimate software, and who otherwise endeavour to play the game, will be driven to the dark side. The fault will lie entirely with Nikon.

[genji]

there will be cracks available for the encrypted data...

if Nikon's encryption of WB is like NC 4.0, no need to worry

[tsanglabs]

Does anyone know if the D70s has this encryption??

[gstark]

Does anyone know if the D70s has this encryption??

There's a thread on DPR that suggests that it does, and also that the next firmware update from Nikon will also include this "enhancement".

If this is the case, and if this is not documented so that you know of this before you begin the update, Nikon could find itself in a whole lot of bother.

[timbo]

There's a thread on DPR that suggests that it does, and also that the next firmware update from Nikon will also include this "enhancement".

If this is the case, and if this is not documented so that you know of this before you begin the update, Nikon could find itself in a whole lot of bother.

This next update promises to be a real double-edged sword if such is the case. Everything else about it makes it damn near irresistible!

[Greg B]

A veritable trojan horse.

It would be a bold move on the part of Nikon to release a firmware update which effectively hobbled an element of their product. However, see my earlier remark re arrogance.

[SoCal Steve]

Does anyone know if the D70s has this encryption??

This was posted on the Nikonians website; eMail response from Nikon to that question from this customer named Vladan.

P.S. Below is the reply from Nikon Support:
===
Customer (Vladan Panovic) 04/20/2005 02:43 PM
Will the newly anounced D70 firmware update (includes some of the D70s improvements) also include the White Balance encryption in NEF files produced?
===
Response (Jorge) 04/27/2005 12:35 PM
Dear Vladan,
Yes, it will include the White Balance encryption.
Nikon Team

[MCWB]

Thanks for that Steve. They say it like it's a feature!

[birddog114]

Thanks for that Steve. They say it like it's a feature!

Yes, it's extra features and bonuses if you want to u/g your firmware.

[MCWB]

New Nikon D70 firmware, now with all new BONUS White-Balance-Fun-and-Games™.

[birddog114]

New Nikon D70 firmware, now with all new BONUS White-Balance-Fun-and-Games™.

MCWB,
What are you going or planning to do? Don't like the extra bonuses?

[dooda]

they're a bunch of evil A-holes. They couple it with autofocus so people are thinking "when I get this upgrade I won't have any more problems with focus. They force us to decide, better autofocus or unencrypted WB? The real question for me now is "stay with Nikon or jump ship to Canon? I love the product, and the encryption in and of itself isn't a huge deal, but as a direction and philosophy that the "team" is taking renders me absolutely bileous. One wonders what they are going to do next? I remember first getting the D70, wondering where the bulb setting was. I went back to the store and they said, you have to have the remote. So I bought the damn thing, too naive to realize that Nikon does this to open your wallet more. Then I went back to ask about Nikon Capture, "More money they tell me" well I figure I can do without, and I'm still too naive to realize that it's their clever way of gouging consumers. Since that what they are doing is not only amoral, but sinister and unfair. I'm going to use my D70 until it dies and then take a look at my options. Luckily I'm not heavily invested in lenses--and the 20d is suddenly looking pretty good.

[genji]

dave, isnt that the nature of the beast...consumerism, to force u to buy more everyday?

i wonder if this is will be the death of nikon, and not because they havent caught up with canon in the megepixel race.

[birddog114]

hehehehe!
I'm waiting for all the bargaining of Nikon gears coming from many sources once people jumped ship especially the big zoom
Haven't seen any thing yet! people is still rant but not dump their gears.
Still waiting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dooda]

Stop looking at my 70-300 birdie. It's still mine. (I know you want it)

[birddog114]

Stop looking at my 70-300 birdie. It's still mine. (I know you want it)

Still waiting, I'm

[mickwhit]

Is there any truth to the rumour that if you don’t like the new D70 firmware update (which includes WB encryption) you can always re-install the previous firmware update? Or is this not possible?

I for one am not that concerned......at the moment

However, my D70 is still at Maxwell's getting the focus alignment fixed. I feel if it stays there too much longer whilst the firmware update is released, I won't have a say if I want it or not. Maxwell will install the firmware upgrade regardless. True story! They upgraded the firmware on my D70 last time my camera went in for a service; without my consent.

Nikon.....Maxwell's (Australia’s representative for Nikon)........doesn't matter. They're all out to screw us!

My two cents.

Cheers,

Mick.

[birddog114]

Attention #
Once the firmware is upgraded, no way for you to get back to the old ones, so think carefully prior to hit the button or send it back to Maxwel with your request of re-install the old firmware

[mickwhit]

Thanks Birddog for the clarification on installing previous firmware updates.

Just a word of warning and to reiterate what Birddog said, if you send your D70 to Maxwells for either repairs, sensor clean or service they will upgrade your firmware regardless of whether you request for it or not!

You’ve been warned.

Cheers,

Mick

[MCWB]

What are you going or planning to do? Don't like the extra bonuses?

No, I don't like it one bit. Even if NC was the best software for my needs, I still wouldn't like it, and the worst thing is, I prefer RawShooter Essentials over NC at the moment for all my PP. I hope some developers stand up to these punks and deliver a program capable of resolving this issue. DMCA only applies in the US.

Bundling improved AF with WB encryption is just sheer bastadry, 'nuff said.

It's not going to make me grab a 20D, but if I didn't have a D70 already I'd be put off getting one.

[birddog114]

Just out of my curiosity! what's happenned if other DSLR makers will follow the Nikon's way down the track?

[MCWB]

Interesting thoughts Birdy!

Then everyone's in the same boat, and everyone's workflow suffers as a result, having to use NC, or set colour temperature manually every time.

[birddog114]

Perhaps other makers are listening to Nikon's way and waiting to see the outcome, then perhaps a monopoly case will be happenned if Nikon is successfully in the way they're doing. You'll see lot of jump in and out!

[Onyx]

Well everyone who's into the trick of "cloudy" white balance (which is reported to be erronuously set as "flash" on the D70 body) would overcome this Auto encryption factor. Also, the issue itself is not that big of a deal - but it's the "if this then what else" hypothetical that I think has everyone, esp Nikon shooters, so riled up. If camera makers all start following suit, Kodak shares will rise again as everyone switch back to 35mm.

[birddog114]

Onyx,
Have you tried to use NC with the NEF from the new D70s? WB?

[dooda]

There's simply too much goodwill to be had for the maker that doesn't encrypt this stuff. It would be a unique position and only the most arrogant of makers would be so hardheaded to maintain such an absurd and beligerent position.

[Frankenstein]

Well everyone who's into the trick of "cloudy" white balance (which is reported to be erronuously set as "flash" on the D70 body) would overcome this Auto encryption factor.

Onyx - explain this please.

Frank

[leek]

Attention #
Once the firmware is upgraded, no way for you to get back to the old ones, so think carefully prior to hit the button or send it back to Maxwel with your request of re-install the old firmware

Do you know this for sure Birddog??? If you have a backup copy of the old firmware, why couldn't you reinstall it if you don't like the new firmware???

[mickwhit]

Can someone who has a wealth of knowledge with the D70 please fully explain the whole WB encryption thing to me (and I am sure others will appreciate) in layman’s terms?

Am I correct in saying that if I upgrade my D70’s firmware (which has WB encryption) I can then only use NC to adjust the WB levels rather than use PhotoshopCS? Eg am I unable to adjust the WB levels in PhotoshopCS?

At present I do most of my PP ‘WB and EV comp. manipulation’ in NC then import to PhotoshopCS to finalise then print, only because I am unfamiliar and inexperienced with PhotoshopCS . So at the moment I am either naïve or not really that concerned about the firmware upgrade.

Can someone please clarify for me?

Thank-you.

Mick.

[leek]

mick, As we understand it at the moment, you would not be able to access the "As Shot" white balance data with anything except Nikon Capture...

Unless people decide to crack the encryption, then all other RAW file processors such as Photoshop CS and RawShooter Essentials will not know how the photo was taken and the white-balance will need to be set manually for each shot... A pain in the A$$ if you don't use Nikon Capture...

for more information / discussion, please see:
http://www.d70users.com/viewtopic.php?t=4898
http://www.d70users.com/viewtopic.php?t=4867

[Onyx]

Well everyone who's into the trick of "cloudy" white balance (which is reported to be erronuously set as "flash" on the D70 body) would overcome this Auto encryption factor.

Onyx - explain this please.

Frank

Hi Frank - two issues here.

1) The 'Cloudy' white balance setting has been report by its users to be favourable, even when used in 'Sunny' conditions. NB: the tip for Auto WB is to dial in some negative bias to subjectively "warm up" the image, or at least minimise the bluish tint the D70 set at defaults tend to display. Use AWB fine tune setting -1 or -2 to taste.

2) It has been laboratory tested and inadverted real world confirmed that the 'Cloudy' and 'Flash' white balance presets on the D70 was switched at birth. The 'Cloudy' setting on the camera is programmed for 'Flash' WB. The WB settings in Nikon Capture software is accurate.

[tsanglabs]

If Adobe was able to get around the encryption could they be sued? What if they use the SDK supplied by Nikon?

[KerryPierce]

or unencrypted WB? The real question for me now is "stay with Nikon or jump ship to Canon? I love the product, and the encryption in and of itself isn't a huge deal, but as a direction and philosophy that the "team" is taking renders me absolutely bileous. One wonders what they are going to do next?

Yes, what they'll do next, is a key issue.

As for the encryption being in the coming d70 firmware, I'm not inclined to believe that it will be there. The guy that posted that "tech support response" on DPR and Nikonians looks like a troll to me. At both sites, he was a new user and hasn't posted since. Nikon's press release specifically mentioned the coming d50 along with the d2x and d2hs, but didn't mention the d70s. So, at this point, it seems unlikely that the firmware update will have the encryption. Even if it had been planned that way, they've had plenty of time to remove it without anyone being the wiser.

As Gary mentioned, if the firmware does have the encryption, and doesn't state it in the docs, there will be a much bigger backlash than with the original uproar. A stealth encryption in the upgrade would be huge news. I just don't see how they could be that stupid.

money they tell me" well I figure I can do without, and I'm still too naive to realize that it's their clever way of gouging consumers. Since that what they are doing is not only amoral, but sinister and unfair. I'm going to use my D70 until it dies and then take a look at my options. Luckily I'm not heavily invested in lenses--and the 20d is suddenly looking pretty good.

That's the part that would be funny, if it weren't so sad. For months after the d70 release, both the IR remote and Nikon Capture were difficult to attain, because of short supply.... How stupid is that? They use proprietary means to generate income on accessories, but don't ramp up production?

My expenditures in lenses has got me pretty well trapped, at least for now. I've been looking at that pretty hard. I'd probably $1500 to $2k, at a minimum, if I were to switch to another brand. So, I'm going to wait to see what they do next. But, this issue has made me regret buying Nikon. I may never switch brands, but I'll never be a Nikon fan boy.

[KerryPierce]

If Adobe was able to get around the encryption could they be sued? What if they use the SDK supplied by Nikon?

Apparently, Adobe won't decrypt the files, because of the fear of lawsuit. They won't use the Nikon SDK, because it doesn't fit into the way ACR works.

[birddog114]

That's the part that would be funny, if it weren't so sad. For months after the d70 release, both the IR remote and Nikon Capture were difficult to attain, because of short supply.... How stupid is that? They use proprietary means to generate income on accessories, but don't ramp up production?

This same all with other brands and not surprise me at all, is Canon 1Ds Mark II's stock healthy? Negative! Australian Customer is waiting for 3 months now to get hold of one unit.

We can't say once product released, then stock of it or its accessories will be available. Guess what? how long people have to wait for the Epson P-2000? and ithe spare battery?

My expenditures in lenses has got me pretty well trapped, at least for now. I've been looking at that pretty hard. I'd probably $1500 to $2k, at a minimum, if I were to switch to another brand. So, I'm going to wait to see what they do next. But, this issue has made me regret buying Nikon. I may never switch brands, but I'll never be a Nikon fan boy.

I'm happy with my purchases and proud of owning some Nikon top gears same as looking more lurks in the near future, with current situation, I did not see that I'm switching brand or jumping ship, these issues are not critical or affecting me same as 80% of member on this board based on the last poll, I use NC, PSCS and other software to enjoy my hobby. The storm won't last and I believe there're many exits ahead for Nikon. You can't alway win, can't you?

[KerryPierce]

That's the part that would be funny, if it weren't so sad. For months after the d70 release, both the IR remote and Nikon Capture were difficult to attain, because of short supply.... How stupid is that? They use proprietary means to generate income on accessories, but don't ramp up production?

This same all with other brands and not surprise me at all, is Canon 1Ds Mark II's stock healthy? Negative! Australian Customer is waiting for 3 months now to get hold of one unit.

Sorry, Birdy, but you can't equate a high end camera or brand new, high demand printer with a piece of software and an IR trasmitter. The transmitters are probably less than $1US to make and they could have ordered them by the tens of thousands and stored them all in a closet, no bigger than they are. As for Capture, there's no excuse there either. Order up the copies and have them in a warehouse. Sell the stupid thing online, like a "normal" software company does these days. That's just plain poor management.....

I'm happy with my purchases and proud of owning some Nikon top gears same as looking more lurks in the near future, with current situation, I did not see that I'm switching brand or jumping ship, these issues are not critical or affecting me same as 80% of member on this board based on the last poll, I use NC, PSCS and other software to enjoy my hobby. The storm won't last and I believe there're many exits ahead for Nikon. You can't alway win, can't you?

It's not a matter of winning or losing. To me, it's a very fundamental issue of right and wrong. I understand that my position aggravates you, Birdy. I'm sorry that it is so. But, I hope you can understand why I believe as I do.

The camera is just a tool. The photos are what is important to me, not the camera brand or the lens. Nikon makes good cameras. So do other companies. I have friends that shoot Canon, Olympus, Fuji and the others. Makes no difference to me. I chose Nikon for what I thought were sound, objective reasons. Time will tell, whether or not it was a wise decision.

Nikon could do a lot of stupid things that wouldn't bother me, but with this issue, they're trying to assert ownership of my photos. I will not tolerate that. If they continue down this road, they will lose a lot of sales and a lot of current owners, including me, will go to other brands. I don't wish to do that, nor do I wish to impugn you or the others that don't believe as I do. I hope you guys can understand that. I respect your position. I hope you will respect mine.

[birddog114]

hehehehe,
In the past, we don't have those remotes and NC we still can use our camera and enjoying it, available stock of those items are not the issues of many photogs, like missing of eyecup or LCD cover, we still can shoot with the camera, why should we bother about them too much. The same as the BH-55 from RRS, I and other can wait for few weeks to get it in our hand. I have an order of a LCA-11 from them nearly 3 months now and still want to order from them more stuff, back-order is my joy and waiting game is my fun.

I'm waiting for all those "Nikon hater" jump ship so the next release of DSLR from Nikon more quicker for me to get it rather than waiting too long. and I'm watching eBay everyday now to see the "dump" gears from those photogs.

I have no objection of your opinion but I'm same as other members on this board are happy with the purchases and keep lusting the same brand.
I'm sure this forum is having a new name "DSLRUSERS.com" to welcome all other DSLR users and I'm always standing up and giving my support.

I'm getting the new D70s tomorrow same as more Nikon lenses on order from my wish list and I'm more happier when I have the NIKON letter in front of me. I personally don't see myself anything wrong with it so far with my hobby.

[birddog114]

Attention #
Once the firmware is upgraded, no way for you to get back to the old ones, so think carefully prior to hit the button or send it back to Maxwel with your request of re-install the old firmware

Do you know this for sure Birddog??? If you have a backup copy of the old firmware, why couldn't you reinstall it if you don't like the new firmware???

John,
Try to do it when the new firmware available, but please don't regret in sending the camera back to Maxwell for restoring the old firmware.

[onimod]

..but with this issue, they're trying to assert ownership of my photos.

Sorry Kerry - i think you're fundamentally wrong here and overly emotional.
The end run of what Adobe is trying to do is remove the imaging processing technique from Nikon. If Nikon can't be in control of the signal processing at the end, why bother with the quality of the lens? With digital it's a system. The last thing Nikon can afford is a the possibility of a great camera that CAN produce great images being hampered by a third party failing to come on board either on quality or timing. Nikon certainly aren't infallible or without blame, but I believe your view is a little short sighted.
What happens if, for whatever reason, ACR processes Canon RAW better than Nikon? Why would Nikon take that chance?
There are already end runs around the ACR issue that work as a plugin to PSCS I believe. There's a solution already and there will be more plugins too if Adobe continue to refuse the SDK.
I don't expect Nikon or Canon to release the exact spec of their glass making technique that gives us great glass. Nor do I expect open RAW converters. They're both part of the system. Neither should be owned by Adobe either.