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Hi guys

I am about to head around Australia for 12 months with the family camping. I have approached a number of magazines with the idea of writing and illustrating articles along the way. I was wondering if there is anyone that has any experience with this sort of thing could tell me how magazines pay for articles? Is there any sort of industry standard or does each mag do there own thing? Also is it normally expected that there will be some negotiation or are fees fairly standard? What sort of money should one expect for a say 5 page article including photos? Anyone got any idea?

Ben

Ben wrote:Hi guys

I am about to head around Australia for 12 months with the family camping. I have approached a number of magazines with the idea of writing and illustrating articles along the way. I was wondering if there is anyone that has any experience with this sort of thing could tell me how magazines pay for articles? Is there any sort of industry standard or does each mag do there own thing? Also is it normally expected that there will be some negotiation or are fees fairly standard? What sort of money should one expect for a say 5 page article including photos? Anyone got any idea?

Ben

Ben,
Wish you have a safe and joyful trip. Merry Xmas!!!
In case I don't see you log on to the forum.

Ben, don't expect too much about this business, they don't pay well and no industry standard on this side. It depends on how do you approach them or having some internal contacts, if not they will squeeze you out the last drop of juice.

My exams finish next week and I would love to make it to a mini meet before I go, but I plan to get my camera out a lot more over the coming year and will return to the forum as often as possible with photos. I have no real contacts just emailed the editor of mags. So far have one interested but I don't know how to negotiate a fee or in fact if there is room for negotiation at all. Not expecting too much in the way of financial reward just thought it might be a fun way to document our trip and make a little spare cash on the side.

Ben

Ben there is no industry standard. You get what the magazines think that you are worth, they play one writer off against another and there is always some newbie willing to work for less. It is a rotten industry.

I would suggest that before you even consider it any further contact some appropriate magazines (just look at a newstand) and see if they are interested. There are a lot of people doing just what you want to, and the market is probably saturated.

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but I have some experience in the field.

Ben wrote:My exams finish next week and I would love to make it to a mini meet before I go, but I plan to get my camera out a lot more over the coming year and will return to the forum as often as possible with photos. I have no real contacts just emailed the editor of mags. So far have one interested but I don't know how to negotiate a fee or in fact if there is room for negotiation at all. Not expecting too much in the way of financial reward just thought it might be a fun way to document our trip and make a little spare cash on the side.

Ben

Ben,
That's OK, if money is not an object, you may find out at first shot to see how they treat you, otherwise looking to somewhere else. The more you do works for them the more you'll gain your accreditation, and it'll help you in the near future if you're keen heading to that direction.

Thanks for your honest input oneputt. I have done what you have suggested and had quite positive feedback but it is probably as you have said, encouragement for the newbie so they can screw me over. I am not really looking to do this long term just thought it may be a fun way to document our trip. By the way if you are the same oneputt as on the overlander forum I thought some of your photos from the high country trip were superb.

Ben

Ben wrote:Hi guys

I am about to head around Australia for 12 months with the family camping. I have approached a number of magazines with the idea of writing and illustrating articles along the way. I was wondering if there is anyone that has any experience with this sort of thing could tell me how magazines pay for articles? Is there any sort of industry standard or does each mag do there own thing? Also is it normally expected that there will be some negotiation or are fees fairly standard? What sort of money should one expect for a say 5 page article including photos? Anyone got any idea?

Ben

depends on the mag and circulation.

most mags in that field pay either a flat rate per article of given word length including pics or pay per page including pics.

you probably aren't in much of a position to negotiate and one thing to bear in mind is that some mags still don't accept complete or partial digital submisisons.

expect any payment as a bonus and you wont be disappointed or jaded by the whole experience - as glamourous as it sounds the harsh reality of it is that a published feature may only buy you a few tankfulls of fuel and a day out at the zoo. some would argue however that the thrill of seeing your work in print is reward enough and view any payment as icing on the cake.

good luck mate.

That is the attitude I intend to take into, the "isn't it awesome to see my picture in a magazine" one, im almost willing to pay them for the honour...well nearly.

I just didn't want to be taken for a ride if there was some sort of industry standard.

Ben

I am a regular contributor to magazines and I can tell you that there is a huge disparity between the pay rates. Most of the smaller magazines are likely to pay you $100 per page and given that you can get one pic and 500 words on a page you may wonder why you bother. To succeed you have to be a fast, realiable writer and a good photographer as well (most people do one or the other well). Of most submissions to magazines most of them will get declined based on either the writing, photography or both.

There are a couple of magazines out there paying reasonable money however unless you are a real pro chances are you are not going to get a look in ... they expect high quality material for their dollars.

As a suggestion, why not take with camera a reasonable laptop and high-end inkjet printer on the road with you and make portraits of people and families that you can then sell them immediately on the spot. It won't cost you show people the pics that you make of them and then you make sure they pay for prints. Chances are you can make more money without the hassle of trying to contact magazines. Worth noting is that you have to wait for a magazine to publish the work before you get paid ... this often means waiting three to six months to see a cheque ... its a hassle!

i sent some 4wd photo's to overland magazine ( august issue ) and they sent me a cheque for $150, i didnt ask for money

cheers rob

G'day Ben,

Mate on the 26th of december my partner and I are heading of to do the exact same thing as you. I had the exact idea as you, however I certainly will not bother with submissions whilst on the road. Instead I plan to take BULK photos and then play with mag articles when I get back. Much like yourself Im not in it for money, simply put, its an extension to my photography hobbie.

What I have done however, that may interest you is thus...Ive set up two websites, one being a simple blog page that outlines our trip on a daily basis for friends and family as well as a webpage that hosts my photography portfolio. This means that the "better" shots I get can be displayed on my portfolio long before I get home, which gives friends (and friends of friends) time to look and purchase (yes this system works very well, I have sold many shots this way) before I arrive home and display my shots properly. I am taking my laptop and external power supply along which IMHO is invaluable if you are serious about your photography and travel. Also dont forget backups....I am doing a 3 way backup, storage on laptop, storage on external drive and storage on DVD (the DVDs are then sent home).

Anyway, PM me if you wanna discuss this further...Id be happy to swap ideas...if not, have a great trip, see ya in a campsite somewhere

Guys there is another way to look at this which I would like you to consider. By not caring about the money you are bastardising the market for those seeking to make a living. That is not something which I like to see.

Oneputt wrote:Guys there is another way to look at this which I would like you to consider. By not caring about the money you are bastardising the market for those seeking to make a living. That is not something which I like to see.

Hi Oneputt...yeah thats a great point and certainly not something I would do on "purpose". Rather, I simply accept my amateur status in this field and submit my work based on the magazine guidelines and then accept what I am offered. I really am in no position to haggle...but having said that, Id value any ideas you could pass my way with respect to this.

Escapism I really don't have the answers. A while ago there was an association known as The Australian Outdoors Writers Association, which tried to bring a little professionalism into the market. Sadly it is now defunct (mainly because of egos). All I can suggest is that you look at what it would have cost you (if you were a professional) and base your asking price on that. Not ideal I know.

Oneputt wrote:Escapism I really don't have the answers. A while ago there was an association known as The Australian Outdoors Writers Association, which tried to bring a little professionalism into the market. Sadly it is now defunct (mainly because of egos). All I can suggest is that you look at what it would have cost you (if you were a professional) and base your asking price on that. Not ideal I know.

Its a tough call Oneputt...I fully appreciate your comments.

This is little different from the music or any entertrainment - industry really, where lost of people want to do this, but the market can only support very few.

What you should be doing is going in with the attitude that you are displaying, but also also using this as a building block towards something better: any article that gets published in an arm's length relationship must have something going for it, and should be used to build up your portfolio of published works, to be used further down the tracks as a part of your CV and references.

I have hard and digital copies of every article of mine that's been published, along with copies of the books I've co-written.

The notoriety is priceless, and after a few articles, it can be used to help open doors that may otherwise remain closed.

Good tip Gary. How do you make reference to previous publications when "blind" submitting? I ask as I have NO contacts, rather I simply follow mag guidelines (to the letter) and submit with fingers crossed.

Escapism wrote:Good tip Gary. How do you make reference to previous publications when "blind" submitting? I ask as I have NO contacts, rather I simply follow mag guidelines (to the letter) and submit with fingers crossed.

Good question, but the answer is fairly simple.

Every submission should also be accompanied by a covering letter of some sort. It's simply a matter of including appropriate referential statemtns within that letter. You don't have tio include copies; simply making mention is sufficient. You can always poiint them to a URL where article copies are held, or threaten - er, I mean offer - to bring copies in with you when you come in to meet them face to face.

Ben and Escapism,

When astronaut Gus Grissom visited the plant where they made the Saturn Rockets that were to thrust he and his mates into their Lunar journey he only said one thing to them, obviously with his own future in mind:

DO GOOD WORK!!

Neither of you is the first, nor are you likely to be the last, to get this idea and pursue this path. There is loads of competition and some of it is quite well versed in the ways of the editorial world.

What counts with all submitted word and picture packages is that you produce a UNIQUE STATEMENT that sets YOUR submission apart from the countless others received on pictrial editors' desks.

How do you produce GOOD WORK? Well to start with you research the market and identify publications that fit the style of how you see and do things. Then contact them - mail, email or fax - and just let them know simply and politely that you are intending to send unsolicited free-lance contributions for their consideration from along your pilgrimmage and for them to keep an eye out for them.

When you do make a submission make sure that everything is in place and the whole package is self-explanatory - including ALL your contact details and a return address for them to send back your material. Pictures should be labelled and captioned, releases for people in the pictures should be included and your copy (the text) should be clean, succinct, grammatically corrected, alont with spelling, and - most importantly - INTERESTING, fresh and new. Check the veracity of all the info you submit and ensure that you are not offering something that could prove legally sticky - that is the province of the tough guys who have done the hard yards and forged a career.

How to do INTERESTING, fresh and new? Back when I spent decades roaming the country shooting centrefolds I would often file articles of 'local colour' to relieve the monotony of the bimbos I'd spennd my days with. First stop was always the pub. Within an hour you can latch onto locals that will be only too willing to divulge the 'good oil' on local matters, identities and scenery.

Just shooting and commenting on the usual stops of the tour-operators will only yield the same repetitive crap that every other wannabe Jimmy Olsen is finding and filing. The search for the different and the less predictable will greatly enrich your own enjoyment of your travels irrespective of whether or not your submissions sell. And never forget that most people like to read and look at stories that involve other people - human interest is pivotal in the majority of cases.

Other correspondents in this spread have indicated that many publications - particularly at the level of accepting unsolicited material from unknowns - will have a page rate or a package fee. You will ALWAYS get better remuneration for your efforts if you present a 'WORD & PICTURE PACKAGE' rather than just some pics for which the publication has to get some 'sub' to knock out a yarn.

If you are in any way specialists in one genre or another then utilise that expertise. If the venerable BlacknStormy were to travel the Simpson Desert looking for nocturnal insect life she would be far more assured of an airing than someone merely submitting 'THEIR' version of a sand dune at sunset. Despite first appearances, even largely pictorial publications are text-centred. Magazines are run by writers, not photographers, and so all too often even a somewhat spectacular sunset over an iconic vista will fail to get a guernesy because to the non-visual mind it is just another sunset.

Bon voyage and good luck with the reportage.

Great post Sheetshooter....having dabbled in freelance I FULLY appreciate your tips. I am really going to try and work the different angles of my chosen fields of interest in an effort to produce something a little more catching than normal.

Thanks again...

Wonderful advice SheetShooter, thanks

Ah Shooter good to see that you are still around Some very sage advice there.

Good comments SheetShooter although I am not too sure it is a good idea to quote Gus Grissom ...he died a few months later in a fire on Apollo One as they were doing a rehearsal on the launch pad ... someone obviously never took his advice!

My advice to people putting stories together is to find a friend who has experience as a sub-editor or writer and get them to go through your stories before you give thought to sending them through to a magazine ... Editors hate getting stories that need to be rewritten ... however they love work that they can just copy and past onto a page without to much effort. Get it right before you send in the story and chances are you will get a look in the door. Get a colleague or mentor to review your images as well so that they can be sharpened up on the road.

One other factor ... put in the effort to get really unique images (preferable shoot on a 12 MP + camera or good film camera) and shoot stock. Make sure your images rock though, they need to be better than the other 98% of the images that are shot on the road about Aussie every year ... do that and you may start getting a return on the trip.

Hi Antsl,

thanks for your comments, I've read some of your articles. Now that I've buttered you up

Antsl wrote:One other factor ... put in the effort to get really unique images (preferable shoot on a 12 MP + camera or good film camera) and shoot stock.

Why is 12MP+ camera recommended and (basic question follows ) can you define "shoot stock"?

SheetShooter, thanks for the informative post.

thanks,

radar

A colleague of mine is in the process of getting courted by Getty images at the moment and although they will accept images from digital cameras they have to be capable of producing a reasonably high resolution file. In a list of cameras that they gave him was included the Nikon D2X, and the Canon 1Ds and 1Ds MkII, the 1D Mk II (for sports work only I am guessing) and the Canon 5D.

Most libraries are looking for reasonably high res files to deliver to their clients so that they look good in any format (it is a wasting of time buying an image if you cannot use it at A4 in a magazine).

The key to shooting stock though is to have a seriously unique style to your work. If in doubt, get a second opinion.

One other factor about shooting stock is that you will need signed model releases for everyone that you include in an image that you intent to supply as stock ... no exceptions.

Shooting stock sounds like an easy thing to do however like any other form of photography, there is always plenty of work involved just beneath the surface!

Antsl wrote:(preferable shoot on a 12 MP + camera or good film camera)

Yes I have found that my D70s is my most limiting factor...most mags that I would "like" to publish in, will NOT accept images from my D70. Which is why I did not throw away my F90x.

Escapism wrote:Yes I have found that my D70s is my most limiting factor...

You're doing well then.

I find the most limiting factor in my photography is the idiot using the bloody camera!

I am suprised at this 12mp thing. Talking with a Travel Editor of a national mag recently he said that 4mp was ample for a full page spread, and to prove it he used one of mine from a Fuji Finepix over two pages.

Oneputt wrote:I am suprised at this 12mp thing. Talking with a Travel Editor of a national mag recently he said that 4mp was ample for a full page spread, and to prove it he used one of mine from a Fuji Finepix over two pages.

I should probably clarify my statement...I have had pics published in mags from a 6 MP camera (Fuji S7000) however my statement referred to article submission guidelines, not so much the reality of the situation.

For the moment I have been using a Nikon D70s to shoot assignment work for a couple of magazines however I have to say that I am not entirely satisfied with the results, even after applying reasonable care in post production you can still get the feeling it was shot on digital. I have a cover to shoot for a mag in the next week or so and I get the feeling I am going to be doing it on the Hasselblad with real film! Part of the reason for this is that the D70s is still in the at Camera Clinic where it is getting an warranty repair done at the moment. Getting real keen to see what the D200 can deliver for me ... I am hoping that will replace the D70s for me soon!

This is an interesting thread. If it were not for the ease of digital processing I think that most mags would have insisted on film.

I remember when I started once with a new mag, being asked by the editor what cameras and film I used. Ah the good old days

Antsl wrote:Good comments SheetShooter although I am not too sure it is a good idea to quote Gus Grissom ...he died a few months later in a fire on Apollo One as they were doing a rehearsal on the launch pad ... someone obviously never took his advice!

That's what adds to the poignancy in my mind — no matter what the discipline or purpose DO GOOD WORK because your arse is riding on it. His certainly was.

Most publishing houses have embraced digital firmly in my experience. ACP for instance refuses to pay for film with many of its publications and insists that those who choose to shoot film have scans made and digtial files supplied.

From their perspective it is a WIN & WIN situation. On the one hand they no longer pay for film, processing and Polaroids (and many shooters lack the confidence to charge for post processing) and on the other hand they no longer incur scanning costs. In fact, increasingly printers are wanting work submitted as CMYK .pdf files so even the cost of conversion is dispensed with.

Doing good work means being thorough and efficient. As Antsl said, sub your copy and hone it until it fits .... and the same goes for the pics.

Cheers,

Also I find that -for myself at least- it is important to get opinions on the quality of your work. Wives, daughters, husbands, sons, good friends don't count unless they have good taste, are honest, and actually know what they are talking about. Switch on Australian Idol tryouts and you can see idiots who think they are good. They look so suprised when someone tells them they are terrible. Instead of learning from the experience they just say that 'the judge is ignorant' and that their family always say how good they are. THEY ARE NO GOOD. Harsh critiques are useful if you can use them in the right way. I find this hard, but it has helped me (not with singing on AI though! photography!).

Even if you have a reasonable amount of skill, the occasion will arise when you are too close to the project, and you are too sentimental. Quality advice here is invaluable. This is tough for me because as a designer the option of printing my photographs is up to me on almost every project - but so many times I have realised that even though my shot is technically great, it doesn't fit the design as well as something else. It can be hard not to be too proud to realise this. If all that ever comes from you is quality AND it suits... you will not need to promote yourself because you will be turning back work from being way too busy.

Good thoughts Heath, as I tell people, I am not into pissing into peoples pockets just for the sake of giving them a warm feeling. Even the best guys in the business seek honest advice from their peers.

Heath Bennett wrote:Also I find that -for myself at least- it is important to get opinions on the quality of your work. Wives, daughters, husbands, sons, good friends don't count unless they have good taste, are honest, and actually know what they are talking about. Switch on Australian Idol tryouts and you can see idiots who think they are good. They look so suprised when someone tells them they are terrible. Instead of learning from the experience they just say that 'the judge is ignorant' and that their family always say how good they are. THEY ARE NO GOOD. Harsh critiques are useful if you can use them in the right way. I find this hard, but it has helped me (not with singing on AI though! photography!).

Even if you have a reasonable amount of skill, the occasion will arise when you are too close to the project, and you are too sentimental. Quality advice here is invaluable. This is tough for me because as a designer the option of printing my photographs is up to me on almost every project - but so many times I have realised that even though my shot is technically great, it doesn't fit the design as well as something else. It can be hard not to be too proud to realise this. If all that ever comes from you is quality AND it suits... you will not need to promote yourself because you will be turning back work from being way too busy.

Sage advice indeed Mr. Bennett - very sage.

And somehow with more than a hint of déjà vu.

Cheers,

Look what happens when you lock yourself in your room and study for a day, a stream of very informative and helpful information comes flooding your way. Thank you to everyone who has provided input to this thread and be assured that all your advice has been taken onboard. The stimulus for this thread was a conversation I had with the editor of a magazine yesterday in which he informed me that he like the idea I had pitched to him as well as the article and photos I had supplied and would be publishing my article in his magazine. At this stage I'm not getting too carried away until I see it in print (which I guess could be months) but it was good encouragement and hence my enquiry concerning payment. I will have to wait and see what comes of it.

Antsl
I may keep my eye out for a decent inkjet

Escapism
Thanks for the suggestions of the web site I may just look into that to keep the family updated if nothing else.

Oneputt
You made a comment about not bastardising the industry and I guess this was part of the reason for this thread. For one thing I want to be paid the going rate for my own benefit as well as not wanting to undercut anyone.

Gary
Your comments on building a portfolio of work up make sense. I don't know if writing articles would be my thing long term but it would definitely be an advantage when going for future work if the could reference your past succecces.

Streetshooter
Thank you for taking the time to respond in such length. From this day fourth I shall strive to always do my best. I will keep your advice in mind when approaching my photography in the future - be unique and interesting.

Heath
Are you suggesting a post each article up here on the forum for critique before I submit? I have a thick skin but I'm unsure if it is that thick!!

Again thank you to all who took the time to reply, your advice is much appreciated

Ben PS This forum is awesome.

Hi Ben,

I have enjoyed reading all the replies you got to your query, as you say awesome.

If you do want to go the way of the blog, you are welcome to use the blog software I have at my website, wordpress and I can setup a gallery for you as well if you wish. Just PM me if you want to go ahead. There are also lots of blogging sites around, such as blogger:
http://www.blogger.com/

Have a great trip and keep us posted on here or your blog

Cheers,

André

I may take you up on that radar. My head has been in the medicine sand for the last twelve months so I only sort of know what a blog is and have no idead how to go about seting it up. My exams finish on Tuesday next week, so after that hopefully my camera will get dusted off and I will get in touch with you and pick your brain about this blog business.

Ben

Be happy to,

I also manage to make a decent flat white if you come out to Redhead, just ask Sheepie

André

Its a deal, only I don't drink coffee.... We may have to make it 5:15 one morning seeing how my exams kept me away from the last outing.

Ben

Ben wrote:Its a deal, only I don't drink coffee.... We may have to make it 5:15 one morning seeing how my exams kept me away from the last outing.

Ben

I also serve filtered water

I'm afraid it's getting earlier and earlier. It's more like 5:00 now. Might get up early next weekend, I'll PM you if I do.

Cheers,

André

Forget the coffee Ben, Andre also makes an awesome fresh orange juice.