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My daughter does showjumping and for the last couple of years I've been taking photos at the local meetings and the regional and state events that she has gone to. I take photos of most of the locals, and some of the big names in the sport, and some of these get published on the pony club web site and the jump club newsletter. I don't charge anything because most of my photos are crap. At some the bigger events there are digital photography businesses which sell prints to competitors. No one has ever got up me about taking photos at any of these events.

Anyway last weekend, at my local show, I was just doing what I normally do. There was an event photographer (not a local) there who, after a few pleasentaries, was distinctly unhappy that I was taking so many photos, especially after I told him I did most of the pony club jumping events, and then he said that he had to pay $400 to be there (3 day show) and no-one was going to pay him for photos while I was doing what I was doing.

Later he came up and apologised for doing a dummy spit but I can see where he was coming from. He had paid a gig fee and didn't expect some wannabe photographer parent to be taking all the same shots.

Anyway I put my camera away......first time I felt that I had to do that...

A couple of people came up to me and said "why aren't you taking photos?". After I told them why they said "you should have told him to go and get f..ked".

Anyway one been in a similar situation, either as an event photographer, or as an amateur, and what's your take on this likely to be increasingly common situation

a bit of a hard one.
on one hand there is a heap of other parents taking pics but not very good ones so the pro could still get a sale and the pro also gets the better angles as he has better access.
on the other hand you are getting good practise which may pay off in the future.
If he didn't have to pay to be there i would say keep doing your thing but because he had to pay it puts a different perspective on it.
perhaps you could just use your pics for yourself, the website and the newsletter in this instance.
make sure you let him know and the next time he won't be worried about you

Shakey, last time I checked it's a free country and no hired photographer has the right to ask anybody to do anything except pose for a shot

If a hired photographer asked me to do that, I'd kindly request for them not to be so damn defensive and anal. Maybe the reason people don't purchase his/her pics is because of his/her attitude. I can see that parents having digi SLRs may take away sales, but if they're great at what they do, they shouldn't have to worry. It's only the ones who are average who need to worry.

Just yesterday, I was supposed to photograph a friend's wedding reception as the primary photographer was not planning on staying. After my friend explained to the photographer what their plan was, the photographer said no to me taking photos and she ended up staying.....go figure! But as with all things, there's always a good reason for things to happen and last night I ended up being unable to make it as I had a family function to attend...

Anyway, I digress. Just continue capturing pics of your daughter, her friends and the rest of the club as well as competitors. Nobody has the right to tell you to stop capturing the precious moments of life

I feel bad for you having to put your camera away...

It's a tough call, I guess you were feeling bad for him...

The fact that he paid money to be there is neither here nor there, unless he signed a contract saying he's the only one able to shoot the event, and/or sell pictures from it. Even if you were selling prints to people from the show and taking away business from him (which you weren't, but anyway) that's your right to do so. I can't believe a 'professional' would rant at you like that! What an idiot, and more the fool him for paying the $400!

Photographers, like every industry, have to move with the times. This means that they have to compete with Joe Average with his P&S, through to Joe Hobbyist with his DSLR. No point getting narky about it, instead you have to provide something they don't! Better pics, faster service etc.

Sorry, I don't get it!
That guy didn't do the right thing and you shouldn't put your camera down.
Why should you? he paid the fees is up to him and all the controlled issues are in the hands of the event organizer.

I continue to be amazed at stories like this!

MCWB wrote:The fact that he paid money to be there is neither here nor there, unless he signed a contract saying he's the only one able to shoot the event...

That's not correct. A contract is an agreement between parties. If you aren't a party to a contract, it cannot be enforced against you. As Birdy says, he would need to enforce his contract with the organiser who would then need to enforce some kind of contract with you (eg a "no photography" rule as condition of entry)

Quite an interesting story. I imagine I may have done the same thing if this had happened to me. I wonder if this guys tactics were to guilt you into putting your camera away so he got to take all the shots exclusively ?

As has been mentioned, for those of us who aren't fluent with the legalities of event photography, it would be easy for someone like this to potentiall bully people into putting their camera away. However, some people would stand up to this and the guy would probably walk away and continue to take the photos he wanted to take.

At least next time, you'll have a better idea on what to say....

The people that came up to you and said you should have told him to go and...... Well if that's in your nature, then perhaps you should have.
At least, perhaps you should have explained that you will, in this instance, and since you felt bad for him, that you would only photo your daughter and close friends.
How many wedding photographers have lost potential sales with a photo because "uncle joe" or someone else with a P&S saw the photo you took and copied it... That's part of the game and it's in the photographers power to make his photos better / more saleable.

As a professional photographer, he should have realised that it is in his power to capture sellable photos. That's what he was there to do. That's what he paid his $400 to do. If he feels he cannot because there is someone else there with a camera, too bad!
The photographers that do the V8 supercars have got that event pretty sewn up and it's nigh on impossible to get a foot in there (other than as a spectator).

I would be more inclined to go to the event organiser in your case and told them of your story with this photographer.
From his attitude it sounds like he should have came in as a spectator and then tried to capture photos worth selling. Unless $400 gave him access to areas not privvy to anyone.

For future reference, and as you do it for free, why not approach these event organisers and get something in writing to give you the right to continue to capture photos at these events, sighting your difficulties in this case as a reason for wanting this letter.
If they do that for you, that will prevent any further photographer from having exclusivity to events such as yours. And depending on their wording, it may even give you the opportunity to sell some of yours!

Not that I'm any expert on this, just comments based on my experience and opinion.

I don't get it too. If I'm shooting an event my kid(s) is/are involved in, I don't care who paid for what unless it's clearly stated by event management that only accredited photographers are allowed. Otherwise I won't put my camera away

Shakey, i dont have a lot of time to go into to it too much but i have never heard of any phototographer paying to shoot an event, and well he has right to tell you to stop, i have people come to the track as well at times and well i dont through a dummy spit, i dont mind as hey they have a right to if they wish as long as it is done right. ok better get to work might write more later but i agree with everyone else here.

A pro paying to shoot - no! A pro ranting on - no! An idiot - yes!

i think i would have just kept on shooting.

I would have prob told him that i wouldn't be selling the photographs.

if his a real pro, his shots should come out much better than mine anyway, esp if he paid to be there

At most events that I've photographed, the media gets a free pass to photograph in better areas than the masses, who are curtained off in the less desirable areas.

So strange that a pro would pay to shoot at an event, much less one that didn't offer him exclusive access.

I'd say that it doesn't make him much of a pro. That's a pretty hard living, though he's probably in an excellent Tax Bracket.

thaddeus wrote:A contract is an agreement between parties. If you aren't a party to a contract, it cannot be enforced against you.

Thanks for the clarification Russell, very interesting indeed!

Shakey.... next time keep the camera out and keep shooting.

As dooda has said... very strange for a pro to have to pay. I have never once had to pay anyone for access to anything. Flash the media pass and away I go.

In regards to spitting the dummy with you taking so many shots... well... too bad honestly. Hold your head up... give a polite little nod.. and keep doing what you are doing. Whatever you do don't get caught up in the politics of taking event or photojournalistic shots.. it's not worth the trouble. Keep to yourself... get the shots you want... and have fun.

cheers

Shakey, his real beef is with the event organisers, sounds like they didn't give him anything for the money. It would be appropriate to suggest he take it up with them (maybe ask them for no fee next year or they take a %). It really has nothing to do with you or what you wish to photograph, I am sorry you felt the need to restrict your activities and enjoyment.

Thanks all. I think the $400 allowed him to set up on site with a banner and display his contact sheets and do on site printing for the customers. It also gave him several mentions over the public address system by the ring announcer. Interested to read that no-one else seems to pay for shooting events. Does that include doing on site printing and having a little display?


He did talk to one of the show organisers. I am not sure exactly what was said but the organiser spoke to me later and said that it was OK to take photos but not so many. I didn't bother explaining that I am such a crap photographer that it takes me 50 shots to get one decent one . Anyway by that time I'd packed the gear away.

I don't think the pro had shot show jumping before as he asked me about the different types of competition and the rules.

We both had the same access to the events, which is basically up beside the jump ring.

shakey wrote:...the organiser spoke to me later and said that it was OK to take photos but not so many.

That's a bit rude as well by the organiser. Next thing we know there'll be signs up telling people they can only take 20 pics at their kids events...

shakey wrote:... but the organiser spoke to me later and said that it was OK to take photos but not so many.

Well that's OK then! My definition of "not so many" has certainly changed in the transition from film to digital - it used to be a roll or 2, but now "not so many" probably means only one 1GB card's worth!! BTW, I agree with everyone else - the guy's attitude was inappropriate, and I don't think he had any right to approach you.

Frank

Too many photos? What about video at say 25 frames per second?
Quality crap in comparison but hey, there's usually a way around things.

Good luck with trying to get the organisers on side - why would they want to jeopardise such a great cash cow? Some idiot prepared to pay them $400 to put out his shingle and peddle his wares?? They're on a good thing, aren't they? I'd be worried they'd try to charge you something next.

As has already been stated, you are under no obligation to stop photographing unless you have signed an agreement or entered the venue under terms and conditions that prohibited or restrict photography. In other words - unless you are a party to a contract.

The guy's a clown and will soon be a poor one at that. (I would, however, suggest that you should always be polite to soft-headed individuals like this - you never know what they can do if you make them angry)