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I've recently bought a Manfrotto 190D with a 141RC head, all up about $200 so we're not talking high end Gitzos here.
With some encourigment from Birddog, I made up this gismo


It works great, I just slide it in the hotshoe of the camera in portrait orientation.
I also have this little bubble level thingy

So this is what I do, I level the tripod using the bubble thingy, I then level the camera using the hotshoe gismo and everything is great except for one thing, If I pan the head around 360 degrees the levels change a fair bit as I go around and they go back to normal when I reach where I started from. Almost as if I was going around a screwthread not a flat plate.
Am I being too fussy or would a much better tripod behave differently?

phillipb,
Hard work guy!
This link is the RRS 337, it can stand on your hot shoe in portrait or landscape, very compact as a dice to have in your bag.

http://www.pixspot.com/displayimage.php ... at=0&pos=0.

With Pano, I recommend PANO head or Ballhead with index for PANO.

Good tripod to play the game as it alway pays back.
Normal head (Man/ Gitzo) won't help and hard to do the stich, those heads are just for fun!!!!

Yes Birddog
the RRS 337 is where I got the idea from, but as you say it's probably a waste of money using it with my cheap set-up.
Out of curiosity have you ever tried usind your RRS 337 in the way I described with your Gitzos? does it stay completely level 360 d?

phillipb wrote:Yes Birddog
the RRS 337 is where I got the idea from, but as you say it's probably a waste of money using it with my cheap set-up.
Out of curiosity have you ever tried usind your RRS 337 in the way I described with your Gitzos? does it stay completely level 360 d?

It's exactly what I means, the RRS-337 stay on the hot shoe and the camera on the good ball head, after you leveled the camera, which ever way you turn 180/ 360 degree, the level stay completely level.

That why I love the Gitzo and paid for the expensive.

Guess what: if all the tripod are the same equal quality and do the same job, why should we bother pay double for the tripod?
I'm sorry have to the following note:

I knew so many people went for the cheap tripod and wish to do lot of thing as pano etc.... I don't think they will be a happy camper after, but let's try and learned, as I learned in the past and I wasted lot of my monies to buy junks and turned them into surplus stocks, gave away at the end. My advices here are based on my experiences and would like to pass to other.

I don't want to put my comment in this area cos everyone has difference taste and choice or someone want to try and prove.

phillipb wrote:So this is what I do, I level the tripod using the bubble thingy, I then level the camera using the hotshoe gismo and everything is great except for one thing, If I pan the head around 360 degrees the levels change a fair bit as I go around and they go back to normal when I reach where I started from. Almost as if I was going around a screwthread not a flat plate.
Am I being too fussy or would a much better tripod behave differently?

Doesn't sound like the tripod, sounds like the levels. If it changes as you pan in a circle and then returns to the original level, it sounds like the spirit levels aren't quite true. If you grab a known good spirit level and setup a flat surface so it's level North-South and East-West, then put your gadgets on it and slowly move them in a circle, does the level indicator change on your bubble and hotshoe gadgets?

skippy wrote:

phillipb wrote:So this is what I do, I level the tripod using the bubble thingy, I then level the camera using the hotshoe gismo and everything is great except for one thing, If I pan the head around 360 degrees the levels change a fair bit as I go around and they go back to normal when I reach where I started from. Almost as if I was going around a screwthread not a flat plate.
Am I being too fussy or would a much better tripod behave differently?

Doesn't sound like the tripod, sounds like the levels. If it changes as you pan in a circle and then returns to the original level, it sounds like the spirit levels aren't quite true. If you grab a known good spirit level and setup a flat surface so it's level North-South and East-West, then put your gadgets on it and slowly move them in a circle, does the level indicator change on your bubble and hotshoe gadgets?

I normally don't care about the leveling of the tripod, I level the camera body only with the RRS 337 and ignore the tripod or head, if the level on camera is level then the rest of them will be perfect.
If you leveled the tripod but the camera is not level, then thing goes wrong same as the ballhead. I never pay lot of notice or attention on the head and tripod.

No , I think it is the tripod, I just tried levelling the tripod without a camera, I then placed the levels on top of the QR plate. If I turn the levels they tend to stay fairly level but if I pan the head with the levels on top they go way off.

Nicely put Birddog!
That is golden advice.

Hmm, obviously I haven't played with a decent tripod, cause I can't picture this. Hopefully I can be enlightened soon!

Personally I don't get this whole level tripod thing. If you were shooting a 360 pano, wouldn't it matter more to ensure that the horizon is level as viewed through the viewfinder?!

I dont own a tripod my d70 yet, but this is my take. If the pan head is not level each successive shot in a pano will be staggered either up or down from the next. On a full 360^ the successive images would migrate upwards, then downwards back to its starting point - assuming that the lowest point is straight ahead. This would make stitching the pano together a bit of a pain if the variation is too great. If the camera is twisted (ie not parallel to the horizon) each successive image is going to be twisted in relation to the last. That would make stitching the pano an even bigger pain, especially if the pan base is not level.

I had already started planning something like this. Mounting the levels above the ball (ie on the camera or mounting plate) is useless if the pan base is not level. There is an assumption that the plate or camera is square to the mount on the tripod (and therefore the pan base) when the ball is in the upright position. Unlikely.

For best pano results, the levels will need to be mounted on a plate that goes between the tripod and the head. This will level the pan base. That would probably require that the original stud in the tripod be replaced with a longer one.
Next, using PhillipB's device the camera can be levelled. If the levels are accurate, and the pan base is level, one should be able to rotate the camera the full 360^ with no variation in the camera level or tilt. Actually, even if the camera is not level, but the levelling device is accurate, the amount that the camera is tilted or twisted should remain the same throughout the entire 360^.
The level for the camera really only needs to be left to right to level the camera against the horizon. Camera tilt should not affect the pano.

To sum up, I think that two sets of levels are required, one for the pan base, the other for the camera.

Just my 2c worth.

Cheers

Matt

phillipb wrote:No , I think it is the tripod, I just tried levelling the tripod without a camera, I then placed the levels on top of the QR plate. If I turn the levels they tend to stay fairly level but if I pan the head with the levels on top they go way off.

Phillip, place the levels on top of the panning plate below the camera mount. If this is not 360 degree level then the tripod needs adjustment. Once the base of the head is level, place the levels on top of the camera mount and measure again. If it is not level your head is damaged or mfg'd bad. Once the first two are level, attach the camera and repeat the leveling process at the hot shoe. it should be level.....

Remember, the longer the level, and generally the more expensive, the more accurate. Test the levels accuracy by leveling an object one way the rotating the level 180 degrees. if it is level both directions you should be fine.

My only other concern would be that the hot shoe plane is parallel to the camera mount plane. If there is a slight variation you will be off, especially at longer focal lengths.

Andy

Andy,
That's pretty much what I did.
I elimnated the camera altogether to start with. I levelled the head without the quick release plate. I put my device on top of the base, I turned the device a bit at a time 360^ without moving the head, levels were ok. I then turned the head with the device on top and the levels changed as I panned around. That tells me that the head is at fault.
The head is brand new but I guess not manufactured to high tolerances.

phillipb wrote:Andy,
That's pretty much what I did.
I elimnated the camera altogether to start with. I levelled the head without the quick release plate. I put my device on top of the base, I turned the device a bit at a time 360^ without moving the head, levels were ok. I then turned the head with the device on top and the levels changed as I panned around. That tells me that the head is at fault.
The head is brand new but I guess not manufactured to high tolerances.

hehehehe! that why we have to buy a good or decent head instead of.