Computer Question - PC or Notebook for Post Processing?

[Glen]

Hi all,
I will be changing my pc in the next few months and wondering which would be more suitable, or probably more accurately, do I give anything up using a notebook for post processing?

I presently use a pc with an Athlon 2800+ 2.08 GHZ processor and 768 mb of ram. I also have an old Toshiba notebook with a few years out of date specs. If I buy a new pc I generally keep it 12-24 months, if I bought a new notebook I would probably keep it 24 30 months due to the higher price. I am in finance, which precludes macs, but the most computer intensive programs I run are PP programs. My main question is will I lose anything or have to pay too much more by moving to a notebook? (I am envious of gstark and others writing by the pool while surfing other peoples wifi. I have no pool or wifi ) Are notebooks as good as PCs? Are they as as easy or reasonably priced to upgrade? Will I be stuck in 18 months time? Is there any penalty by choosing a notebook?

Thanks in advance for any or all opinions.

Glen

[lukeo]

Are notebooks as good as PCs? Are they as as easy or reasonably priced to upgrade? Will I be stuck in 18 months time? Is there any penalty by choosing a notebook?

No. No. Probably. Yes.

Further explaination :

To get the same specifications and speed as a PC you will be double if not triple the price. Laptops are usually a compromise.

Upgrade path is usually extremely limited, to items such as RAM and Hard Disk Drive, if a said manufacturer also makes compatibly shaped optical drives it may also be possible to change your 18month old 8 speed DVD burner for a 16x one or whatever is out at the time. CPU's are hard to change, and if the socket changes you are stuck. You usually cannot put a much faster CPU in than they come with anyway for heat reasons (case only made to cool upto to a certain point)... all of these upgrades would cost you allot.

Stuck in 18 months, well that really depends, if you outgrow the laptop's capability with inceased user needs then yes, if what you do today you will still be doing in 18months then no.

Penaltie's sure, heat, speed, space, screen quality, cramped keyboard, limited upgrade path, increased cost of ownership.

Enough of the negatives, a decent pentium M 1.8ghz laptop with solid Geforce Go or radeon mobility (yes these are important) graphics, with lots of ram (512MB minimum) and a decent sized hard disk will serve you well IF you shop around and get a model with a very high quality TFT this is extremely important, it's what you look at all day and if it is terrible you will never be happy with the laptop.

You gain portability, the ability to function without continous AC power, take your data and programs with you where ever you go, ability to connect wireless hotspots around town. if you need it the ultimate in satellite internet (at a cost) etc etc ... depends on what you use it all for. Personally I have a state of the art desktop customised to my needs with an older PIII laptop to do my "portable" work on. A PIII is an extremely capable Word document/ HTML /C++ Code editing machine.

As always this is just my opinion, you are constrained by budget and some options may be more suitable than others depending on your specific usage needs.

[gstark]

Glen,

I will be changing my pc in the next few months and wondering which would be more suitable, or probably more accurately, do I give anything up using a notebook for post processing?

I generally replace my laptop every 30 months or thereabouts.

When buying, I try to get what I can foresee will last me until that period; my new (in July last) ASUS wears a Centrino 1.7 chipset, 512MB, 80GB, ATI Radeon 9700, 802.11g, DVD burner, USB2 (x4), firewire, widescreen for watching Ray and West Wing ...

In all seriousness, the high end graphics and high res screen give me a return, as a software developer, in the form of extra screen real estate., and I see a similar payoff in terms of post processing capabilities.

I probably need an extra 512MB - 1GB RAM, but otherwise, I'm almost entirely satisfied with this unit. If only someone could make a touchpad that actually worked!

If I buy a new pc I generally keep it 12-24 months, if I bought a new notebook I would probably keep it 24 30 months due to the higher price. I am in finance, which precludes macs, but the most computer intensive programs I run are PP programs. My main question is will I lose anything or have to pay too much more by moving to a notebook? (I am envious of gstark and others writing by the pool while surfing other peoples wifi. I have no pool or wifi )

The WiFi is great; everything except our servers at home run Wifi; the servers are hardwired to ensure maximum performance.

Your timings are, IMHO, spot on, but make sure that you maximise your specifications for what you're buying in order to minimise the obsolesence factor at the tail end of the period.

I don't expect to sell the old laptop at the end of the period either; I'm building a museum of obsolete laptops now. My old ones are all servicable and operational, but their resale value doesn't really equate to the sums of the components that comprise them. Under those circumstances, I'd rather just keep 'em on hand and the hell with the couple of hundred dollars that they might fetch.

Consider also the cost of spare parts - I refuse to buy Sony because they treat their customers as fools, as evidenced by their pricing policies on replacement batteries - a battery for my Vaio costs about the same as the laptop is now worth. They've got to be kidding!

Battery life - my Asus gives me about 4.5 hours from a charge, which is actually very good - the best I've ever experienced. The other aspect of battery life is how long it will remain serviceable, and my experience is that you can expect between 12 - 15 months usage before you'll need to replace it.

I'll have both the ASUS and the Vaio at Birddog's on Saturday; once we've done the video recording, one or the other should be available if you want to have a play.

[MattC]

Glen,

The biggest advantage for me is portability. I do not feel that I give up much as far as performance goes. Performance is never going to be in the same league as a decent desktop. I am a fairly patient sort, and use the extra time to think about what I am doing. The screen, I feel, is the most important consideration when considering a laptop for graphics. I do not see decent gear as being overly expensive these days. In fact, with the recent (last couple of years) growth of laptop sales all I have seen is a substantial drop in prices. This is one very competetive market.
If you were to buy a decent system now with all of the software needed, two or three years down the track it will still be working just as well - it is just that there will be better gear around. Windows XP still has a fairly long lifetime and it will be the next OS (Longhorn) and associated software that will make current hardware redundant. My primary machine is an 18 month Dell 8500 which I see as having at least 2 years left in it. Most of the current gear still only offers similar real world performance to this laptop which I bought primarily for the screen. The same screen is still being used in current systems.
You already have, what sounds like, a desktop system with quite a decent basic spec. Get a wireless access point and a laptop would be complimentary to this existing system. Add a second hand PII (mine cost me $0) with Smoothwall installed and enjoy decent ICS. You'll be able to laze around by the pool at home and enjoy the forum. Just do not do what I did. I dropped my old HP PII into the pool while running. Stuffed the floppy drive and LH speaker but otherwise fine once dried out.

Cheers

Matt

[stubbsy]

Glen

One thing you haven't covered is why you want a laptop.

If you have a real need for portability, then you should buy one and spend the most you can justify. If a desktop PC meets your needs then don't buy a laptop. Don't fall into the trap of buying a laptop and using it 99% of the time sitting at a desk.

I've been around computers for a long while (first one bought in 1979!) and I have yet to have a need to either sacrifice performance or pay more for a laptop. That said I do all my work where a desktop is suitable.

Oh, and when I'm by a pool I'm relaxing, not typing

[PlatinumWeaver]

Lots of helpful advice here.. one thing I didn't see mentioned ( and I admit I only skimmed over the info ) is that harddrives in laptops are generally slower... last time I checked the average speed on a laptop hdd was 5400rpm while on a desktop it was sitting at 7200rpm.. not such an issue for day-to-day taks, but if you're transfering a ton of files then you may notice a difference...

imho it comes to to what stubbsy said.. if you need mobility there's no question..

[Onyx]

Glen, an XP2800+ isn't all too out of date. If I were in your shoes, I'd get a laptop just so you can get a feel for one (enjoying Wifi for instance), and concurrently use your existing desktop - as it's still quite capable today.

Considering the cost of upgrades (admittedly higher in laptops), examine if and how often you've upgraded your computer systems in the past. If your buying habits are like Gary's - buy once and buy right, then there'll be no need to upgrade for the foreseeable life of the system (although you pay the higher upfront price for a 'top spec' machine) keeping in mind most hardware parts drop in price with time.

You can get an external monitor and full sized keyboard to plug into the lappy when used at home, overcoming the squished keyboard and display quality compromises. In fact, running effective dual monitors with the lappy's LCD as well as external monitor might be something beneficial for image editing - your proposed purporse for this new computer system.

As for surfing other people's wifi - I don't know about the wireless penetration in Australia, but in the US there are a surprising amount of open networks where one can enjoy "borrowed" internet access.

[xerubus]

classic case of going with your gut feeling here...

a high end laptop will set you back much more than a high end pc.... but if you are really interested in trying a laptop, grab one...

replacements of laptops occur more often because of the simple fact that you can't upgrade specific components in them... whereas with a pc... a new vid card or a new cpu is not a huge expense in comparision.

personally i use a laptop, but that is because it is replaced by our company every 6 months, so i am always up to date. if this was not the case, i would have a desktop.

cheers

[jethro]

get a desktop. laptops have such shit keyboards. get a 64bit athlon. depending on your budget. my chief nerd that works for me last week picked up a new 64bit athlon with 2 x 200gig drives 2gig of ram and i will post the rest but i cant rember the rest because he was so pummped and he blew me away with nerd stuff. but i now know that his 64bit machine (box Only) cost him $2800. he says that his dvd editing and photoshop work are now absolutely SMOKIN! Mind you he works on a twin chip 2.4gig G5 mac at my work which he says is a piece of shit compared to his new beast. Food for thought. I must say that we have benched our new G5 against our rather outdated 2.1 athlon with the same memory chip size and the athlon in photoshop with a 500mg file on opening speed and the athlon won hands down. im a mac purist by trade but i will say that pc's piss all over macs in general speed and tasking. Phew i never thought id say that but its true. laptops are for word processing and emails. dont get caught in the hype. get a desktop.

No offence to mac users but hey when are they going to speed up

[Nnnnsic]

I've delayed posting in this thread because I was afraid it would turn into a pissing contest about which is better, desktops or lappies, and Jethro's post confirmed that it happened... but only in his world, it seems, and I'm not quite sure that there's a shred of valuable advice, in my opinion, in his post... nor is there really a point or an answer to your questions, Glen.

Glen, the question I have for you is if you get a laptop, where are you likely to do most of your work? I think laptops are great, but a lot of people end up buying the wrong type of laptop.

For instance, Jethro says to get a desktop and have the chip inside be an Amd 64, but here I am thinking that "Well wait a minute, Jethro... they make mobile A64 chips..."

As far as I've seen and remember in the way laptops have essentially evolved, there are three types of PC-based laptops:

1. The Desktop Replacement:
The desktop replacement laptops are the work-dogs of the laptop world... they are loaded and usually pretty heavy... none of that Penitum M crap... no... these things are loaded with true Pentium 4's and they get hot... they are exactly what they say they are... an actual "desktop replacement."
They're also becoming harder to find as faster generations of Penitum M's and competing Mobile Amd A64 chips become more available.

2. The Standard Laptop:
Everyone has one of these laptops... and by that I mean that every bloody company has a laptop. Toshiba, Asus, Samsung, IBM, Acer, Benq, HP, Compaq, Fujitsu, Alienware... you name it, the list goes on... And what's more, you can now get "whitebox" laptops which can be best explained by calling it a "barebones laptop"... it's pretty much buying a laptop shell with a motherboard, sound, video, and all that crap built in but you choose the chip.

These laptops are getting faster and, while they obviously don't compete with most desktops, some are a lot faster.
Laptops are not just for word processing or email or web surfing, as Jethro seems to think. You try telling the guy or girl with the IBM T series lappy and it's FireGL chipset or the person with the Dell Latitude lappy with a Quadro inside that their laptop is only good for word processing and emails... first they'll laugh at you and then in old school tradition, they'll gladly drop a Unix manual on your head... a 10,000lb one for the matter.

Laptops are quite powerful little beasts and if you're using it for mainly Photo editing with Photoshop being the primary target, hard disk speeds won't be that big of an issue. If they are, you can get lappies with 7200 rpm drives. A lappy of the sort that's fairly standard at the moment, say a Pentium M 1.7 or a Mobile A64 3000 will certainly last you if the intent of the machine is photo editing.

Where laptops generally fall off of the scale for usability is for gaming and video editing. While they both can certainly be used for either, and companies like Alienware have proven that gaming laptops can certainly exist, you often find that with the constantly increasing workload that games require or the ever increasing disk-space problem that either games or video work, especially video-work, need the laptops just will not keep up with. For a gaming system, you essentially need the upgradability that a desktop has... for instance, if you need a new video card for a new game, you just buy one and change it over (depending on if AGP has died or not and you haven't moved to PCI-E). Similar circumstances occur for video: if you need more space, you buy a new drive.
Obviously, you can buy an external hard disk for your lappy, but that intrudes on the whole "portability" factor you may or may not have intended the original purpose of your lappy for.

3. The Sub-Notebook:
I'm still surprised to see these boxes around and flourishing, actually, especially with Transmeta chips still inside them.
Now Jethro's comments are somewhat near a level of accuracy... still not quite there, but he was hovering around a target of "Somewhere in the vicinity of Sub-Notebooks, not Betelgeuse."
Sub Notebooks are the lighter lappies that require less power than their standard and desktop replacement counterparts. Whereas a desktop replacement usually has a screen between 16 and 17 inches and a standard lappy has a screen of between 12 and 17 inches, sub-notebooks tend to have a screen size of between 7 and 12 inches, a lot of them rounding out around 9-10 inches.
Sony is alive and well in this market and I've seen Fujitsu treading their ground in this field, too. I've seen them run on anything between Centrino's to lower-voltage Penitum M's to Transmeta Crusoe chips.
Sub-notebooks may not have things that we can take for granted and usually see in their larger counterparts, things like optical drives (CD, DVD) or when they have them, they're may not be as fast or as capable as some of the others you'll see on the market.

They're made for people who want the ultimate in portability... Sub-notebooks tend to be quite light in weight and small in size. Sony has shown us incredibly small laptops at the sizes of around 10.9 inches with things like WiFi and DVD drives still in the systems... and these systems are still very capable in their own right. Are they as fast as a Penitum 4 3.06ghz or A64 3800+ desktop? No, of course not, but can you pick your tower in a few seconds and lug it with you to where ever you're going?

Glen,
I personally suggest to stick with the mid-range of this guide... your standard everyday laptop. Your standard everyday laptop is steadily approaching the world of it's sub-notebook counterpart... many solid and fast standard notebooks are becoming as light as many of the sub-notebooks I used to see on the market, and that's naturally to be expected as we make equipment and components smaller and faster.

I hope this helps you.

[Glen]

Guys thanks all who posted. The reason I was thinking about portability was for pp while being away, and really just because a changeover time will come up in the next few months so lets see if my preconceived ideas are still current about laptops. It seems in some ways they are and some they aren't. Most of my work will be done at a desk, so maybe the two box option is the way to go. My present old laptop has a docking station and I was thinking maybe the super duper lappy with a docking station, big screen, keyboard and multiple HD hanging off it was the way to go. All of you guys have got me thinking so will have a good look at both options. Thanks

[stubbsy]

nnnsic - well said.

Glen

Given your scenario - go the docking station. At extra cost you can overcome two of the big drawbacks (for me) of a lappie - small(ish) screen and keyboard.

I'd also suggest you think about getting a real mouse for portable use. There are some quite usable small mice for lappies you can use pretty much anywhere (eg on a plane). Also, if you can, try the two types of built in mouse replacements (the touch pad and the little ibm joystick thingy in the keyboard) to see how usable they are for you since one may have it way over the other or both may not make the cut.

[Nnnnsic]

I'm still of the opinion that both types of mice aren't that good. Why they stopped putting trackballs in lappy's, I don't know, as trackball technology has gotten quite good.

[birddog114]

I'm still of the opinion that both types of mice aren't that good. Why they stopped putting trackballs in lappy's, I don't know, as trackball technology has gotten quite good.

Leigh,
It's easy to understand cos everyone has balls but no mice our mouse

[Onyx]

I thought the "g spot" was supposed to replace trackballs in lappies. The felt tipped usually red bit sticking out next to the 'G' key.

[gstark]

Glen, Peter,

Also, if you can, try the two types of built in mouse replacements (the touch pad and the little ibm joystick thingy in the keyboard) to see how usable they are for you since one may have it way over the other or both may not make the cut.

Toshiba used to use the mini joystick, but have gone the route of the touchpad.

While the touchpad seems, at first bite, to be easier to use, I have yet to see one that works well in areas of high humidity. Read Sydney.

The Asus's touchpad can get particularly ugly; the Sony sems to be somewhat less so, but neither are, IMHO, ideal.

As an option, Mickey's girlfriend doesn't seem to be too bad, but I find that an optical trackball is far and away the best allround option. Go Logitec, USB, and forget the rest.

[gstark]

I'm still of the opinion that both types of mice aren't that good. Why they stopped putting trackballs in lappy's, I don't know, as trackball technology has gotten quite good.

The balls, and the wheels upon which they relied, became too dirty for reliable operation far too quickly.

Why they've not reverted to optical trackballs though, is a very good question.