Whats the world coming too??

[BBJ]

Well loverly day here SA today and the young fella is at his forst year of high school and attending his very first swimming carival held at out local swimming pool. So i thought well i might go along for a looks and see if i can get some pictures of him swimming which would look more like a drowning and well get some shots for memory purpose and was asked to put my camera away.

I explained what i was there for and well still did not matter is it that my camera is bigger than all the other parents that was there with there point and shoots... There was a fella there with a D70 and a sigma 100-300 lens doing pics for the school.

So i am rather pissed off and intend to send a letter to the principal making him aware of my conserns, yes there are a lot of perverts out there, i guess if i was some bloke of the street and had no kids there could be a different situation, but it is saying that we can not get involved with our kids sports events and get pictures.

We are becoming more Americanised.
Cheers
John
BBJ

[birddog114]

No not true! we're reigning by the "Communist" , so soon all camera owners have to be registered and sit down for a knowledge test prior to obtain a license to shoot! shame!!!!!!

[huynhie]

Birdy,

I would not mind being in a Communist Society as that would me that whatever you own will also belong to me

[leek]

Sorry to hear that John...

Was it someone from the school or someone from the swimming pool that asked you to put your camera away?

I know that cameras are banned in our local swimming pool now... That's annoying in itself - just imagine all those learning to swim photos that can't be taken any more... I don't know why they would make a distinction between P&S cameras and SLR cameras though...

Nokia et al have a lot to answer for if you ask me... It's only since the mobile phone camera became mainstream that these bans started creeping in...

[gstark]

John,

I would be asking the school exactly what rights they think they have, preventing you from taking photos of your child!

[MCWB]

Disgusting John! May I ask why you didn't tell them where to go? I wouldn't have thought they had any legs to stand on from a legal point of view (can anyone confirm?) in terms of taking photos of your own child...

[sirhc55]

John - get stuck up them. I have never heard anything as ridiculous as this. Not being able to photograph (as a proud parent) your siblings is beyond the pale.

I am going to write to Nikon and ask them if they can produced large lenses with camouflage schemes or even better a stealth lens that no one can see.

Not being able to take photos is as stupid as my previous paragraph

[Glen]

BBJ, that is a bummer! Birddy is right, more communist.

In your letter to the school, point out that the size of the camera has nothing to do with the reach of the lens, and some of the p&s can be more intrusive than yours. Also point out it is the quality of the shots which yours produces, and as it was a special moment in your sons life, you bought your best camera along. Also point out how that moment will never be recaptured due to his inane policy. Ask if they had done a background check with Department of Community Services and the police (I used to own a childcare centre, we had to do both on staff, these are NSW depts use the SA equivalent) on the photographer using the exact same camera as you. If they didn't they were failing in there duty of care to their students.

I am sure you will find heaps to write about, just remember to use spellcheck before sending a letter to a school principal, you don't want the letter being sent back with red marks in the margin

[Oneputt]

Whilst it may appear draconian and unfair I would think that the school was protecting itself from a legal standpoint. As it was on private property you really don't have a case. Accept that is for discrimination as others were allowed to take photographs.

It is certainly a sad reflection on todays society.

[W00DY]

Just remember to use spellcheck before sending a letter to a school principal, you don't want the letter being sent back with red marks in the margin

In light of a ridiculous situation, this made me laugh

On a serious note though, I woudl like to see them trying to stop me taking photos of my son on the fist day at school, first swimming carnival etc...

W00DY

[BBJ]

Yes well i intend to get up them and explained why i wanted the pics and so on but yes i didnt want to create a fuss but most certainley will be sending the principal a nice lil letter saying that am i to be labeled a pervert to want to capture the young bloke first swim carnival.

It was a teacher who asked me to put it away and not pool staff and well there are no sighns saying no camera's. The point being that there was lot of other parents there as well and because i pull out a bigger/better camera i guess that is enought to label you as a pervert in there eyes.LOL
Oh well it happens and is only going to get worse i think.

[phillipb]

Nothing to do with legalities, the school will make a profit from photos sold by the official photographer.
They assume that P.& S. cameras from a distance will be no match for the official photos so they are allowed. Parents will still buy the photos.
You on the other hand were a competitor and a threat to their profits.
Stick up for your rights and get stuck into them.

[gstark]

It was a teacher who asked me to put it away

And you can refuse.

If they even used the word pervert, you should use that in your counter-attack of them.

And the fact that they have discriminated against you, while permitting other parents to use their cameras, is simply not an acceptable situation.

What was the reason that they discriminated against you?

Why did they permit other parents to use their cameras?

I would not have left, and would have forced theminto a scene - part of the problem I see in Oz is that we're all too willing to back down because we're afraid to make a "scene".

But what were you doing that was wrong? Not a bloody thing!

Why should you be damaged and discriminated against because some individual wants to go on a power trip?

Go back and reassert your rights from this snotty little upstart!

Oh well it happens and is only going to get worse i think.

Only if you let it.

[MCWB]

John: I know you didn't want to, but maybe next time making a fuss might be worth it, if for no other reason than you get to capture memories of a moment that's now gone. What's the teacher going to do, throw you out? You have a very strong case with the people using PHD cameras, it's got to be all or none, there is no grey area here. Otherwise, you're being discriminated against for having a better camera.

[nigels]

Hi Guys,

I agree with all these posts, bloody ridiculous. It's know wonder I'm turning into a full blown anarchist when I read this sort of thing.

I understand the schools got to be careful, but surely when it's the father taking these shots and they are allowing point and shoot cams, a lot of which can take very good pics, well I don't believe they have a leg to stand on.

Ah well, stupidity, small mindedness, Americanism, Communism. big brother, the Do Gooders reign supreme. Where is this wonderful country of ours coming to. It won't be long before even the refugees will want to go home.

Cheers
Nige

[gstark]

John: I know you didn't want to, but maybe next time making a fuss might be worth it.

Not "might".

It's always worth asserting your rights, and unless you do, these little Hitlers will continue to try and inflict their values (or absewnce of them) upon you, and the sad part is that unless you stand up, you lose.

And the sum of what you - and we - lose will be far greater than just the parts.

[BBJ]

All coments are true and well i know i should go back but for andrew's sake i wont go back but i am going to make a scene with my letter to the school and i think while i am at it i will also send one to the local paper as well expresing my concerns and you all have some valid points inwhich i will use in my letter to them as well.

Thanks all for your coments and i will use the spell check. LOL

[MCWB]

It's always worth asserting your rights, and unless you do, these little Hitlers will continue to try and inflict their values (or absewnce of them) upon you, and the sad part is that unless you stand up, you lose.

And the sum of what you - and we - lose will be far greater than just the parts.

Gary for PM! Or at least Waverly council. Well said.

[Killakoala]

On the flip side of the coin.

Today i was approached by a security guard 'outside' Luna Park as i was taking a photo of the 'big mouth' with camera mounted on a tripod

He thought i was a 'pro' and very nicely and politely informed me that i could not sell the image of Luna Park as it would be 'a conflict of interest.' I agreed and explained that i do not intend to profit from taking the pic and i am aware of the copyright implications if i tried. He was happy with that, and bid me farewell and the went back inside the park

He did not attempt to stop me from taking the photo and if he had i would have pointed out that the person standing beside me was also taking a photo of the same thing, albeit with a P&S cam, but he did not approach him.

So there you go, some people can be civilised about these things. Thankfully they are not all 'goons.'

[birddog114]

If things are going happen like all the past incidents, we may heading into the bush shooting wildlife or go to the Wetland and enjoy the freedom of having the camera same as photography.
Too much of everything are surrounding us and how can we voice our view of having a good camera and democracy?

[gstark]

Steve,

Good to hear that you were treated in a courteous and professional manner.

Just one question: what spefically was the "conflict of interest" that he was referring to?

[sirhc55]

Maybe we should have D70 T-shirts with the words ”We make look like pros” on the front and on the back ”but we don’t charge like pros” on the back

[birddog114]

Maybe we should have D70 T-shirts with the words ”We make look like pros” on the front and on the back ”but we don’t charge like pros” on the back

Chris,
It's a good idea, we have our logo but none of our slogan, so can we start?

[Glen]

Chris, don't wear that shirt up the cross

Killa, I'm offended, I was down there on Wednesday night doing the samething with a tripod and no one approached me. I must look like a rank amateur with an oversized point and shoot

[Matty B]

John,

I'm a little saddened by the whole thing. I echo Nigel's comment - what is it all coming to? Far too much energy and effort spent by far too many in being seen to do the right thing rather than expending effort actually doing it - as you were.

Firstly I give you a medal for raising a child / children in these times. Secondly I applaud your efforts to attend your child's event off your own bat. Thirdly I see your attempts to take some shots for posterity as merely a natural extension of you raising your child in the mannor you see fit.

Woe betide the poor git staff member who asks you to refrain from the same activity the rest of the parents are happily involved in. Surely any school community must rely so much upon the increased input and attention of the parent body? They are cutting their own throats on this one.......

I support your right to do all of the above. Fight the good fight my friend, it is worth pursuing your rights as such. Surely we live in one of the most blessed places on earth. It appears the powers that be must justify their own existance these days by interfereing and regulating every aspect of our daily lives! Communist or Fascist it's just not right?

Keep yer chin up

Matty B

[stubbsy]

I tne last month or so we've had people trying to ban cameras on beaches, outside shopping malls and now parents can only take shots of their kids if they use a P & S (btw I wonder if a phone camera is OK )

Makes me ashamed to be an Australian. What's next - photography only between consenting adults in private?

[MCWB]

I must look like a rank amateur with an oversized point and shoot

Did you have the 45 2.8 P on?

[sirhc55]

I tne last month or so we've had people trying to ban cameras on beaches, outside shopping malls and now parents can only take shots of their kids if they use a P & S (btw I wonder if a phone camera is OK )

Makes me ashamed to be an Australian. What's next - photography only between consenting adults in private?

Tried that Peter and she said NO

[Glen]

I must look like a rank amateur with an oversized point and shoot

Did you have the 45 2.8 P on?

MCWB, I had my 12-24 Sigma (biggish lens) on with it's platinum band. Maybe the security guy read Sigma and walked off?

[stubbsy]

Glen

Sigma - need I comment?

[sirhc55]

I must look like a rank amateur with an oversized point and shoot

Did you have the 45 2.8 P on?

MCWB, I had my 12-24 Sigma (biggish lens) on with it's platinum band. Maybe the security guy read Sigma and walked off?

Glen - Sigma will get you in anywhere as they know you can’t be a serious photographer with a Sigma

[ru32day]

I support the sentiments behind the advice to not take this teacher's treatment lying down, but I also know that the one thing kids hate more than anything is their parents making a scene and if, in seeking to record the momentous occasion, one were to ruin the child's enjoyment of the moment - well I think this risks getting the balance wrong too.

I'd probably have nicely explained that it was my child I was photographing (did the teacher know this?) and that I would be happy to provide a copy of all of my shots to the school. If the teacher persisted, I'd have (still politely) said, "well I'll only take a couple of shots then", run off one or two shots then desisted, in order not to embarrass my son. It would have been most unlikely that the teacher could have reacted before I'd taken a couple of shots and once I'd stopped shooting, there would have been no point in their pressing their point (mind you, we're all wise after the event with time to think about what to do!)

I would, however, have complained in no uncertain terms (and in person, not by mail) to the principal (in private), seeking an apology from the teacher concerned and an undertaking that in the future I'd be welcome to fully participate in and document my child's activities.

[Killakoala]

Gary Stark said....
Steve,

Good to hear that you were treated in a courteous and professional manner.

Just one question: what spefically was the "conflict of interest" that he was referring to?

I believe he was hinting that i could be sued for making a profit out of something that doesn't make a profit. That would be unfair on Luna Park and fair on me, therefore a 'conflict of interest.'

Glen
I don't know mate, perhaps you need to act more suspiciously next time

I for one won't be letting anyone stop me from taking photos of things that i am legally permitted to photograph. This includes family members doing stuff, the Sydney Harbour foreshore, people in the street, or even Coogee Beach, which i havent gotten around to visiting yet, but will soon.

[Onyx]

John, this is a very disheartening incident. I would have thought you'd make a bigger scene, given your "Big bad" name (and accompanying avatar).

This is the ultimate in discrimination without reason. Why should 1 parent be singled out and disallowed to record a moment in their child's life when other parents in exactly the same situation are allowed to do just that?! Let's hope that despite the lens the "pro" used, they snapped a few pics of your kid that might wanna consider buying. If not for the memory of their first swimming meet, then for the memory of this incident. I have a feeling
it won't be your (or our) last.

[BBJ]

Thanks All for your coments and Onyx, i found out that the other person taking photo's is a teacher so Andrew tells me. Anyhow as you may not have read my lil speel on how i got the name BigBadJohn in the intro thread about myself, i may have taken it laying down and not to cause a scene at the pool they certainly haven't heard the last of me.

I have sent a nice letter to the principal venting my troubles and one to the editior of the local newspaper as well. Who knows what will come of it, but at least i will have had my say on the matter infact i have told the school i will not attend any of there school functions to support Andrew and that if he chooses not to participate in there activities well so be it..

We get so many letters and school notices to come support the school and your children in these carivals and sports days, yeah right just dont take your camera's.LOL

I took pictures of his graduation and have them on a cd as well as the school put a power point they had made for the graduation on a blnk cd for me so i have it all and the Grad pics on cd that he can look back for many years to come. So anyhow we will see how the saga goes.
Cheers
John

[Killakoala]

Well John, i wish you the best of fortune mate.

[BBJ]

Thanks Steve, it's not the end of the world but i am going to have point heard for sure, i do have to go to the school next week or so to fix up some school fee's so i could get lucky and verbal. HAHAHAa By then it might be around the school on who i am and what to expext when i come visit.
Cheers
John

[leek]

BBJ, Let us know how it goes - I'd love to hear their justification for their actions... Hopefully they will admit that they were wrong and we will have educated one subsection of the community...

[plukaduck]

BBJ,

Was the teacher trying to imply that you were some sort of pervert by wanting to take the pictures of your child at his first swimming carnival. I wish I was approached by a teacher and asked not to use my camera, I would simply explain the situation, of you, wishing to take pictures of your child.

I would then ask the reasoning behind them choosing a carrer in teaching and being around children, maybe implying they may have an alterior motive. I guess that would put the shoe on the other foot, so to speak.

We were chatting about the camera ban implied by some Westfield shopping centres. I tried this out at Westfield Parramatta on Sunday taking my D70 and 70-200VR to the shopping centre and walking around.

I was never approached by anyone despite the fact I walked past several security guards. Next time I might start taking pics.

We need to stand up for ourselves. I welcome anyone to challenge me in relation to taking pictures or where I choose to have my camera.

Cheers,

Darryl.

[digitor]

*********************
*********************
Post deleted due to blood being above boiling
point because of bureaucratic stupidity
*********************
*********************
(Self imposed censorship)

I will try again later

Cheers

[MattC]

BBJ,

It is a crazy world that we live in. Hopefully this will be a isolated instance for you. It sounds like one teacher being over zealous but it may be still be worth taking the issue up with the school.

Cheers

Matt

[Onyx]

Digitor, my initial impression reading this thread was probably similar to yours too.

If they had banned ALL parents from taking photos, then we'd be debating a separate issue - that of perceived safety for the children, and how far off the mark that is; but to allow some and disallow others (or specifically one person in this case), it's just pure stupidity!

Pluckaduck, you must have been missing your Ikelite housing. I was at Rhodes shopping centre over the w/end (Lend Lease managed), and saw a Canonite with his 1D series cam, complete with red-ringed L lens, looking very touristy and I hung around nearby waiting for security to show up next to the guy. It never happened.

[redline]

Hey John,
sorry to hear that happen to you. perhaps in future i would recommend speak to head person in charge of the event. get a ok from them first before you start shooting these events. tell them of your good intentions and that your not here to sell prints back to parents. sometimes they have a hired photog who comes up with a "exclusive rights" over to photo the event. this tactic usually work well for me, it gets me into most state racing events where the other shooters can shoot, rather than from the stands.

[gstark]

Thanks Steve, it's not the end of the world but i am going to have point heard for sure, i do have to go to the school next week or so to fix up some school fee's so i could get lucky and verbal. HAHAHAa By then it might be around the school on who i am and what to expext when i come visit

John,

Are these the so-called school fees that the principals like to make you think are compulsory, but in fact they are not? And if they try to intimidate you into thinking so, they are breaking several other laws?

Guess who now has a wonderful opportunity to make his point well and truly heard, and in no uncertain terms?

Tell the principal exactrly where to stick his illegal school fees!

Yes, illegal, in the way that they usually advise you of how they must be paid.

[BBJ]

Well after my lil email to the school principal. i got a phone call from him to arrange a meeting inwhich we just had, and well i know he has concerns and so on and a duty of care to other kids and well he was very Apologetic, as he said maybe he should have spoken to me a bit longer than the abrupt No You Cant Take Pictures, as to given me the chance to explain more but i did tell him why i was there and what for. LOL
Anyhow the fact that he doesn't know every kid in the school is still not the point as he could got the young fella and asked him.

He also showed me a list of kids who's parents will not allow photo's to be taken of there kids as i siad that is fine, i was only interested in 1 kid thats all, and i said you would have been quiet welcomed to take my camera and look at the pics, would not have bothered me at all.

Well i also sent a letter to local paper as well using some of the suggestions, and words from the post that you have made about this subject to the editor and it was in todays paper.

Principal was a bit stunned when i told him this, i did not mention school names or any names at but did make referance to the beach stoires we read and see on the media nowdays. He seemed to be more worried about the image of the school.

I am now allowed to attend events with my camera at school as long as i only shoot my child.
Thats the story so far anyhow.
Cheers
John PS: The lil hitler bloke who told me not to use my camera just happen to be the Principal.

[sirhc55]

Well done BBJ - I am amazed tho’ that there are parents that will inform the school that photos must not be taken of their children. I wonder what happens when the class group photos are taken!!!! Do they airbrush them out

[Glen]

Mate glad it ended the right way

[BBJ]

Seems Chris they are not to be in these photo's in any way. But well thats there choice i guess strange people hey. But yeh he covering his ass and the school fair eneough but could have been done in a better way, bet he will be going straight to the shop for a paper after school. LOL

[gstark]

PS: The lil hitler bloke who told me not to use my camera just happen to be the Principal.

Why does this not surprise me?

Well done John. It's just a shame that you had to have the follow-up discussion in the first place; it would have been nice had Adolf adopted a reasonable approach right from the start.

And it's good that your letter was picked up by the local paper too. Too bad Adolf's concerns are misplaced here though: he should not be at all concerned about the school's reputation, but completely concerned about his students, their safety, and the importance of ensuring a strong and vibrant parent-pupil-school relationship.

[gleff]

He also showed me a list of kids who's parents will not allow photo's to be taken of there kids as i siad that is fine, i was only interested in 1 kid thats all, and i said you would have been quiet welcomed to take my camera and look at the pics, would not have bothered me at all.

Glad to hear all worked out in the end.. I'm rather speechless at the fact he had a list of kids that parents don't want pictures taken of. I'm trying to work out how this list came about.. Are parents that worried about pediphillia that they have meetings and make lists of things like this?

This trend is truly disturbing to me. Are professional photographers feeling that threatened by amateurs that they now insist on no other camera's at their shoots? Or is the media just making mountains out of mole hills and scaring the living @#$% out of parents that every person with a camera in hand pointing at a child is a pediphile.

Maybe we should start a group called PAPAC (People against people against photography). Start a movement and force some change, otherwise we're heading towards an underground society of photographers.

That's my rant.

Geoff