The age old problem: Good will vrs gear depreciation

[MHD]

Well a problem for me at least...

How do you go about trying to minimise/discourage those goodwill jobs, ie doing some work for a workplace for free (good will) or friends...

I'm starting to take the line that even for the most good willed job I will require some payment just to cover wear and tear and depreciation... My gear is definately starting to take a more used aperence (eg dust in the optics of the kit lens, ocasional bumps and scratches and the ever increasing shutter count)

How many good will jobs do others do? how insistant are you that a job should be paid for?... Hmmm might have to make it a poll

[stubbsy]

MHD

I chose option 2 (rarely charge), but reflecting on it - I think you're right. My current thinking is I should charge a modest fee for those I'm tempted to do for free and explain politely it's to cover wear & tear etc. I think most people would understand and for those that don't understand I'll tell them they're tightarses

[glamy]

I rarely charge those I know except if they abuse my "good will". A good mate will always ask to pay or offer compensation in other forms.
Cheers,
Gerard

[sirhc55]

This is always a problem. Back in the 80’s many companies would want submissions for design work for nix. I did it a couple times then realised it was a con.

I have done work for friends and charged them and they have objected! So now I tell them up front if there is going to be a charge or not and they can then make the decision to go ahead if there is a charge.

You are right about wear and tear Scott on equipment and this should be amortised as much as possible.

But, in the end, you are the only one that can make a decision on charging - if you feel that more work will eventuate from doing a pro bono or just plain cheap then do it - it is your decision!

Basically if you are making a business of something - charge

[birddog114]

I'm rather having fun in doing all free goodwill jobs and be independent!
Charging a rate which means you have responsibilities with what you're engaged and to accept all criticism, even you don't receive the monentary, just a beer or a can of soft drink that will count as your pay.
Nowaday, lot of choices and tastes in difference tongues of human and they're poison, you can get killed with that.
I'm happy to be asked to do some photography for someone as an odd job as well!

[MHD]

All excellent points!!

I like Birddogs especially..

This post is actually in the same theme as his post... I have been asked to take a few photos at a college function and the list and complexity and end uses of the images is growing, getting to the point where I will not be able to enjoy the function as much (as I will be worried more about getting the shots on my list)

I am becoming more and more inclined to charge (A discount rate)
But Birddog makes an excelent point... when you charge more is expected both by and of you...

[stubbsy]

But Birddog makes an excelent point... when you charge more is expected both by and of you...

Yep. Problem is even for free people have expectations that you may or may not meet (although admittedly less so than if they're paying).

This is a little in the same vein as the recent thread on loaning gear to friends.

[BBJ]

I too am a bit like Birdy in some ways. I did not vote as well i will not charge friends as they will only pay for the cost of the printing if they want prints done. At the track i charge most of my sales of riders but will give the odd picture to locals like if i have a 6x4 of them i will say shout me a can of drink as it gets rather warm walking around the track. It can be hard at times but yeh as i get a lot of emails after my motorbike pics some people want prints others want cd's.

My Test will be this week as i do have to travel a bit to do some pics of this plane who the Boss of the insurance company wants me to do pics for him and there office opening. I think i will just charge per photo as usuall although i am not sure about there office opening as yet as they want them for there website. Oh well will take it how it comes i guess but i would not put a price on anything till i have seen the pics.

Last track day i forgot to change iSO on camera and some pics had a bit of noise in parts so i was not happy with them so they didnt make the website. But it is a hard choice at times.

[Oneputt]

Oops I read this thread as the Old Age Problem!!!!I'd better leave

[hedge]

Not really sure where I stand on this one but have discussed it with some others not so long ago and would like to offer up a few points (pick your own side on these);

1 - you have spent a lot of time and money on building up your skills and gear. These skills/gear have considerable value. Make sure people acknowledge that or you'll get taken advantage of. If they like your work enough to request you they should be prepared to make it worth your while.

2 - The client gets something out of this so shouldn't you? If it is a good experience then do it for nix, otherwise, money, free tickets, etc etc.

3 - Make sure expectations are realistic. Charging someone $50 or $100 to cover a function is pretty cheap when you consider what a pro would charge! If they've seen your current pics and want more like that, no stress, everyone has realistic expectations. If they want Ansel Adams for $15/hour then you've got problems.

4 - chances are they (client) are going to use your photos for marketing etc. You can bet they'll be paying a graphic designer to make their pamphlets so why not pay you to get the images? Or running with the function example - they're paying the venue, the caterer, the wait staff, the insurance, the grog etc etc etc - why not pay you!?

Plenty more but have to bail the office for some lunch!! Sorry they're a bit rough but i was in a hurry!!

cheers,

adam

[r2160]

The other side of the coin is based on the person.

for arguments sake, I go to stubbsy and ask him to do a job. If thats his living, why isnt he entitled to make something out of it.

Also, if you are asking for somebody to do a job for you, you should not expect to get it for nothing. I remember terms like "taking advantage of" and "using".

I have a lifelong friend (friend for over 25 years and I am only 38) who is a builder. I want some renovations done to my house. I have spoken to him and he knows all I expect is for him to do the right thing and be honest. If there is a way for him to help me save money, I know he will help. After all, it is how he makes a living.

just my 2c

Glenn

[JordanP]

Depends I think. If photography is your hobby and you are good at it, then you might be more inclined to do jobs as favours, barter, discounted etc. If you are trying to build a business and make a living out of it then I would guess that is quite different. Even from that angle, you may do 'cheap', or good will jobs if it helps build your portfolio, stock library or provides for cheap or free advertisement for your business.

I nearly always at least undercharge personal friends as I'm a firm advocate for the "gos round, comes round" princilpe.

[Greg B]

Oops I read this thread as the Old Age Problem!!!!I'd better leave

Nice one Oneputt

On the bigger picture - I have generally avoided doing photographic "work", although I have been asked on several occasions. I am not in the photographic/design business at all, I work in an office. Photography is what I do for fun, and I don't want any pressure or expectations on me except for those that are self imposed to enhance the enjoyment of my hobby and interest.

I have done some band photography for friends, but I primarly did it because I wanted to. Shoots at gigs, and band shots for posters etc is all fun as far as I am concerned - or it was 20+ years ago

If I wanted to expand the hobby to become a business - on whatever scale - I'd have to find another hobby And more importantly, I would need to raise my standards to a more professional level.

[gstark]

People too frequently undervalue their time.

And they want you to do the same.

There's depreciation, time spent in PP, materials consumed ...

When my sister got married, I paid one of my staff to shoot the wedding, and provided the prints for her.

Plus we still bought her a pressie.

[ozimax]

Good discussion all, I've just started down the road of selling photographs, services. Everything up till now was freebie (even to magazines, websites eg just to get some coverage etc).

I sold my first two surf enlargements on the weekend, no idea what price to put on them so I just said, "Pay me what you think it's worth!"

The same people liked the surf shots so much they have now asked me to do a complete fashion shoot for a new line of surf wear (boardshorts, T-shirts etc).

Now as to what to charge for a 1/2 day fashion shoot, I've no idea. Any comments?

Ozi

[redline]

i tend to ask around for access to race meetings in order to get more exp, with equipment and just the general feel of things.
usually give them prints as a thankyou.
but if they wanted to use images for sites i usually give them an ok.

using this exp. i do freelance jobs which of course i ask for a reasonable fee. if you do end up doing it as a business i say don't under sell your too much beacause it makes it harder for you to rasie your prices in future year.

[JordanP]

pricing is always an interesting topic - you might want to post it under the "business" section.

Now as to what to charge for a 1/2 day fashion shoot, I've no idea. Any comments?

Ozi

[ozimax]

Tried to post under business section but it wouldn't let me? (Is that because I follow Rabbitohs and we flogged Saints on Sat night??:-))

Ozi

[Glen]

Ozi, we will get that corrected

[MHD]

I sold my first two surf enlargements on the weekend, no idea what price to put on them so I just said, "Pay me what you think it's worth!"


Ozi

Yeah... I hate deciding how much to charge... My first sale (last week) the guy said: How much do will you charge, and this was just for the digital file, he was doing all the printing etc... and he was a college so it was not straight forward...

I might go steal your thunder and start that fees thread in Business...

[ozimax]

Thanks Glen, and no probs, MHD, thanks too.

As for selling the digital file, I would imagine that would be worth a fair bit more than just a print. Mind you, you still have the original/copy and the copyright etc, or do you sell the copyright when you sell a digital file?

Just thinking out loud here...

Ozi

[MHD]

Nah... I sold the file just to be printed... it was one of these inside jobs again with a friend...

They were images I never intended to sell and it helped build a business relationship so I sold them at $25 a pop (2 bought and an order for two more)

The dilema is with an upcoming important dinner I am being inundated with requests for certain pictures... now this goes beyond my casual shooting for pleasure..

[ozimax]

MHD, I know what you mean, I'm always giving prints and files away to friends and families, but there's an opportunity to make some cash so I have to think this pricing bit through.

Ozi

[NeoN]

To Charge or Not!!
Is your Photography a Hobby or Business?
Can you combine the two !?
There is'nt a simple answer!!The variables are too many,just as there are many shades of Grey.
To me a Job is either totally FREE ,and therefore FUN or purerly ,BUSINESS ! ,in which case as Birddog said, you have to take responsobility,and criticism for it.So you better make sure you charge the right Price.!!
Some years ago I done a job for my Local church for FREE and what's more I got a[GOD will bless you my son!!]

Funny enough that day I won the Quatrella ,which shows the LIGHT travels in a mysterious way!!!!.


NeoN

[dooda]

I don't charge family or close friends. Anyone else should pony up including those who know a close friend who referred me. Be careful of those people.

I agree with birdie and I posted this on MHD's other post. If charging, figure out what is fair for both and price it there. Never underprice. If you don't want to charge the full thing or you don't want responsibility than do it for free. Of course there is exceptions...yeh tuff question.