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I did a wedding shoot sometimes in Oct 2008, the shoot went well and they were happy of the quality of the photos. The photos were processed and album delivered within 4 weeks. The couples went on a honeymoon before I placed the order of the album. Christmas was closing in and had to place my order before the xmas closure, I did the call for album composition and choice of photos. The web gallery were posted and sent to them as I was prepared the printed album. No special request was made as yet by then. I delivered the album in early December 2008. They were happy when they saw the album.

In late January, I received an email from the groom saying that the photos taken from his side of family was way less than what was of the Bride's family. A quote from what written (names omitted):

But there are a few things I wasn't happy with and the major one being is that we weren't asked
which photos we wanted in our photo album. My family, Bride and I are very disappointed that
there were no photos of my (groom) side of the family in the album. The album is for us to look at for the
rest of our life and it is only fair that we choose the photos that we want instead of you choosing
photos that you think are good. Because of that we are going to make another album with the
photos that we want.

In future it would be good to consult with your clients as much as possible.

The other thing was that there were not enough photos taken at the reception.

Other than that the quality of the photos and the time you've taken is much appreciated.

Later in March 2009, the Bride called me at 12 am midnight, while I was asleep. Saying to me how she is having trouble with the Groom's family ranting about the photo album. In request of a free remake of the album. That's about what I remember she saying, as I was really tired and don't really know what is going on. I just said "I'll think about it".

Now in April 2009, she emailed me requesting the photos she needed for the remake. I rejected the 'free' remake option and suggested her to some photo printing businesses for budget album printing. The response from her was not as friendly anymore:

You also did not disagree to compose a new album free of charge for us during the conversation, therefore you have misled me into believing that another album would be composed. I have wasted all this time to make 'my' selection of photos. You said you would call me back but I never heard from you since.

Technically our wedding took place just less than 6 months and we spoke about one month ago regarding this new album to do. Therefore my expression of dissatisfaction was within the 6 months (also please refer to Kyaw's email to you regarding his dissatifaction in Jan/ Feb 2009). You did not ask for our specific requirements of the album prior to printing, so there was no chance for me to indicate to you what specific photos we wanted. You made the photo selection based on your assumption and did not consult with us prior to putting together the album. I understand that we went on our honeymoon soon after the wedding however you could you consulted with us prior to our departure or after our return to ensure that we were satisfied with 'your' selction of photos.

Thanks but I do not need your sympathy, I need to you to redo an album in the 'proper' manner as a professional photographer does.

I am not requesting for a free additional album simply because I changed my mind a few months after receiving the album for the sake of it. In the processing for putting together the album, I was not given the chance to 'make up my mind' about the photos so how could I have changed my mind?

Frankly we both are extremely disapppointed and our families are not happy with the album.
As you were introduced by my brother's girlfriend, I did not want to make it awkward for any parties, however it has come to a point where we feel that we need to speak up on our feelings regarding our dissatisfaction and the money we invested in the 'memories' of a lifetime.

I ask that you seriously reconsider to agree to re do an album for us. If we cannot reach this agreement, I'm afraid I will leave it in the hands of Department of Trading.

So, opinions? Who, what, when is wrong?
From my understanding, a wedding album is about the groom and bride, I was not asked to shoot a family get together.

The last sentence reads, to me, as blackmail. It would also appear to me that if the bride and groom were happy at the time of acceptance of the album then the complaint has originated with the inlaws.

Whatever you do Yip always preface replies with the statement “without prejudice” as this will make sure that the replies cannot be used in court.

The photographs that you took at the wedding are of no use to you so just write them all to DVD and let them make their own album. Just as good as telling them to feck off.

Just a couple of queries first.

- Was there a need to have a 4 week turnaround? Was this a request by the couple?
- Did you mention to them about the process of selecting images for the album? Was the choice offered to give you full creative licence over what to pick and what not to pick for the album?

From the way you've written the events, it sounds like you made assumptions and that's a dangerous line to walk especially when it comes to client work, regardless of the industry you're in. Even if you had posted the photos online, did you ask them to select the photos to include in the album?

As much as you don't want to have to re-do the album or pay for it, is it possible to come to an agreement where maybe they just pay for a mutually agreed price?

While it's an unfortunate position you're in, I think the take aways here are never to assume that what you think is what the client wants and to always consult, consult, consult. It may be a pain, but if both parties are on the same page, then no issues will come up.

IF you believe you have filled your contact, what is there to worry about. I would simply reply to her that this is what you have done. If they would like another album, quote them a price.

It is then their choice if they take you up..I know people that try this all the time, from buying shoes and getting free socks to buying a new house and wanting all the furniture thrown in. They are trying their luck..

What is the DFT going to do ? As long as you gave them what they asked for, no issue, If album composition was not discussed what can they expect?

BUt I think I agree with Piro another at an agree price is would be a win/win..

Good luck

MATT

oh and I'd ring her at 12am and tell her her a**e looked fat in the dress so you left a few out......

i think its all well and good for us all to support YiP cos hes our mate but i gotta be honest, i find it unusual that the bride/groom did not pick the photos that were to appear in the album. dont you normally produce proofs and then they pick the ones they want ? if thats not the case, i'd strongly recommend that this is the way its done in future. you kind of intimated that there was some choice there but i didnt quite get the whole picture of what that meant.

in regard to the problem. are you able to ad photos, (pages), to the current album ?

not sure if your ethnic community is anything like mine, but for greeks, its quite a tight knit community so you have to consider the fact that word will travel fast if they are REALLY dissatisified. so i;d consider that in your decision making process aswell.

PiroStitch wrote:Just a couple of queries first.

- Was there a need to have a 4 week turnaround? Was this a request by the couple?
- Did you mention to them about the process of selecting images for the album? Was the choice offered to give you full creative licence over what to pick and what not to pick for the album?

We did verbally agreed to make the turnaround ASAP, on the contract, I have mentioned 4 weeks without any special circumstance arising.

From my memory, since it was many months ago, I *think* she (bride) said "I trust you with it, I leave it to you". This was not written down in the contract, though.

While it's an unfortunate position you're in, I think the take aways here are never to assume that what you think is what the client wants and to always consult, consult, consult. It may be a pain, but if both parties are on the same page, then no issues will come up.

I do agree I did less of this as I was hurrying up for the Xmas closure to hand the file to the printers before the Xmas closure date and have the album delayed until mid January 2009

Rooz wrote:i find it unusual that the bride/groom did not pick the photos that were to appear in the album. dont you normally produce proofs and then they pick the ones they want ? if thats not the case, i'd strongly recommend that this is the way its done in future. you kind of intimated that there was some choice there but i didnt quite get the whole picture of what that meant.

No, that's not the case. I usually let them pick what they want. As said above, I remember them saying that they wanted me to make the call for the album and they were leaving on a honeymoon trip the next day after their wedding. So that is why I made the dangerous call.

in regard to the problem. are you able to ad photos, (pages), to the current album ?

No, I can't.

The reason I rejected their demand in making new album is that they coming back to me many months after the photo album was delivered. The album was delivered in early December 2008. Then they requested the remake in March. So will it take 4 months to let you go "no, this is not I wanted" state for a 40 pages photo album? Because the parents said this is bad, didnt have photos of the parents and saying they should redo this? This seems a little bit too off for me.
If the request was made in December, I would happily redo the album, but now in April... I just don't see why...

Here are couple options:
1- Make another cheap looking album for them on the request -- I lose most
2 - Refund the money to make a casual album (Say, $100) to them and take the one I made back -- I lose a little bit
3 - Make agreement for them to pay me for the extra album, but this is least likely to happen.

This is a really difficult situation, and I empathise with you in that you have done your best for your client and now they are saying that they are dissatisfied.

I have never been a professional wedding photographer, but I have photographed lots of weddings, and even within family, they can be difficult.

I did learn very early to let the clients choose the photographs, because there are often factors at work that the photographer is unaware of. For example, who would know that they needed an equal number of photos of the groom's side and the bride's side? And, how would you know who fitted where, anyway?

As photographers, we are likely to choose the pictures that are the most artistic or asthetically pleasing, when the client really wants a photo of Aunt Maud in the album regardless of how crappy a picure it is.

All of that doesn't solve your dilemma. I think Rooz has made a valid point. If they are people who are a centre of influence for further work, I think that it would be important to make them happy. If they are not, then I think that you must tell them that it is not commercially viable for you to produce another album but that perhaps you might do it at "cost". Cost should include your time.

Good luck with sorting this problem.

[quote="Yi-P]
No, that's not the case. I usually let them pick what they want. As said above, I remember them saying that they wanted me to make the call for the album and they were leaving on a honeymoon trip the next day after their wedding. So that is why I made the dangerous call.[/quote]

fair enuf. dont get me wrong YiP, i think the customer is certianly an ass, but i'd chalk it down as a learning process for you. NEVER, EVER pick the final album shots again.

The reason I rejected their demand in making new album is that they coming back to me many months after the photo album was delivered. The album was delivered in early December 2008. Then they requested the remake in March. So will it take 4 months to let you go "no, this is not I wanted" state for a 40 pages photo album? Because the parents said this is bad, didnt have photos of the parents and saying they should redo this? This seems a little bit too off for me.
If the request was made in December, I would happily redo the album, but now in April... I just don't see why...

Here are couple options:
1- Make another cheap looking album for them on the request -- I lose most
2 - Refund the money to make a casual album (Say, $100) to them and take the one I made back -- I lose a little bit
3 - Make agreement for them to pay me for the extra album, but this is least likely to happen.

all totally understandable buddy. i really feel for ya in this situation. and you are correct in saying that 4 months later is a bit rich to be complaining. again though, imho, you took the initial risk by picking the shots. you acknowledge yourself this was dangerous and you give them the ability to cry foul. perhaps you should look at your contracts and internal processes and tighten that all up so this cant ever happen again.

i give all my customers, (not weddings though), all the shots on a disc, all numbered as thumbnails. then i give them a form where they tick what photos they want, what size they want, what format, (canvas etc). i dont need to do albums at all thankfully. i keep that sort of thing in my records so if anyone says thats not what they wanted, i have a clear document saying they made the choice. enlargements and canvas are not a cheap thing to make a mistake on.

i;ve run into 2 bad situations with this. once cos the canvas shot they chose turned out shithouse cos i had cropped and processed too much. the other time ive run into a really bad situation is when a customer called me a hack and refused to pay cos i didnt make her look good, (skin blemishes etc). i didnt specify this is any of my documentation so while my first reaction was to knock the fat bitch on her flabby ass, i had a good think about it and realsied that perhaps i hadnt met her expectations and i wasnt clear about it in my T&C. since then, (after reading some of the info on peoples websites from here), i have included that in my documentation. (i also didnt want an angry mum telling everyone what a bad shooter i was). i ended up giving her the shots for half price cos i didnt have the skills to actually do the PP.

anyway...hope you can sort it out mate...somehow. i just think that perhaps its better to look at the bigger picture and cop one on the chin this time around.

the foto fanatic wrote:If they are people who are a centre of influence for further work, I think that it would be important to make them happy. If they are not, then I think that you must tell them that it is not commercially viable for you to produce another album but that perhaps you might do it at "cost". Cost should include your time.

Good luck with sorting this problem.

Make them happy if they are a “centre of influence” and if not, it’s not commercially viable

In my book it does not matter one single iota who or what they are. At the time they accepted the album the contract was fulfilled - full stop.

That reminds me, I must return my six year old car because my new GF does not like the colour

Hey Yi-P,

Sounds like your advertising is "by the word of mouth". If that's important to you I think it's best to let go of $100 (Especially the album is that cheap!). You can tax deduct $30 or $50 depending on your income.

Although it will hurt you a little bit consider it $50/$80 for a good lesson learnt. I think you also learnt the lesson that "great people can become arseholes". That lesson was free!

All the best in sorting out this quickly.

I am not a professional photographer but I work in a client service business. I also have a lot of respect and time for Yi-p.

I assume that, in this case, all client fees had been paid for?

At the end of the day, is there a statute of limitations on a client making a complaint? 4 months doesn't sound too unreasonable. However, it also sounds like they are trying to get a free album for the in-laws.

But, when the complaint relates to "you said"/"I said", it gets very difficult, and you need to consider the prospective cost of bad word of mouth compared to the potentially positive outcome of meeting them half-way or all they way there.

I have had a number of issues arise with clients, sometimes possibly my fault, sometimes theirs. Whilst we have often come out on top, we have also decided to make concessoins on a number of cases because it just isn't worth the angst. And we are talking about a few thousand dollars at times.

This is a tough one.

Have you asked your clients why it's taken them so long to decide that they didn't like the album, and especially after their initial expression of their satisfaction with the results?

Regardless, there's one point that, when in business, is important to keep in mind. The customer may not always be right, but the customer is always the customer. So what if it costs a few bucks to make the problem, as perceived by your customer, right. The alternate cost, in potential damage to your business, is immeasurable.

Consider too the nuisance cost that an ongoing problem may incur for you. An unhappy client can keep you occupied for hours at a time, and over a prolonged period, at little to no cost to them. But it costs you heaps in time and stress.

Long term, the option which is the less expensive one (to fix the problem) is also, by coincidence, the easier course for you to follow.

And hopefully it's not too late: if done correctly, you can turn this negative experience into a positive one by just doing it: don't accept blame, but importantly, never try to apportion it either. Just run with a "you have a problem, let's fix it" attitude. Makes you look good and the cost is relatively minimal.

Yi-P, sorry to see this stress for you. Are you able to meet them in person, rather than discussing it all via email. People will always be more reasonable when dealing face to face, rather than being anonymous in an email. This might seem unconfortable, but it may be better for clearing the air.

Also, thanks. I've got two weddings later this year, that I yet to have contracts signed for. Your misfortune is a valuable learning experience for me. I owe you a beer.

sirhc55 wrote:Make them happy if they are a “centre of influence” and if not, it’s not commercially viable

In my book it does not matter one single iota who or what they are. At the time they accepted the album the contract was fulfilled - full stop.

all very noble chris and i dont disagree in principal with the sentiment. but unfortuantely it does matter if your business depends on word of mouth clientel. you wont even know how much business you lose cos of that bad word of mouth. people are not backwards in coming forwards on saying who NOT to use based on their experiences and unfortuantely YiP will not have the opportunity to defend himself or state his case when he's copping all that bad press...its just lost business and a damaged reputation.

Yi-P
It all depends on how much you charged for the wedding. If it was a budget and you didn't charge much then tell them it will cost extra to remake the album. If you charged them a decent fee then go the extra mile. It sounds like the in-laws have stuck their nose in but you were not working for them.

Thank you all for your valuable input. They're much appreciated

gstark wrote:Have you asked your clients why it's taken them so long to decide that they didn't like the album, and especially after their initial expression of their satisfaction with the results?

Their reply is that they were not given choice of photos and the in-laws are not happy with the album.

Raskill wrote:Are you able to meet them in person, rather than discussing it all via email. People will always be more reasonable when dealing face to face, rather than being anonymous in an email. This might seem unconfortable, but it may be better for clearing the air.

I like your idea of meeting up in person, point taken

It all depends on how much you charged for the wedding. If it was a budget and you didn't charge much then tell them it will cost extra to remake the album. If you charged them a decent fee then go the extra mile. It sounds like the in-laws have stuck their nose in but you were not working for them.

Yeah it wasn't a budget wedding, so I guess extra mile would be to save the reputation of the business not turning worse in the end.


From all suggestion above, I have thought of this solution:
I'll meet up with them in person, asking the previous wedding album back plus a DVD of all the photos they want in the album. After I get the photos they want and the 'damaged' album, I will place an order of the new one. Keep the old one for client meeting purpose.
After all, the contract clearly defines 1x printed album, so I'm allowed to get the previous one back, right?

Thoughts?

Yi-P wrote:From all suggestion above, I have thought of this solution:
I'll meet up with them in person, asking the previous wedding album back plus a DVD of all the photos they want in the album. After I get the photos they want and the 'damaged' album, I will place an order of the new one. Keep the old one for client meeting purpose.
After all, the contract clearly defines 1x printed album, so I'm allowed to get the previous one back, right?

Thoughts?

excellent idea.

Yi-P wrote:

gstark wrote:Have you asked your clients why it's taken them so long to decide that they didn't like the album, and especially after their initial expression of their satisfaction with the results?

Their reply is that they were not given choice of photos

THat is an important point.

and the in-laws are not happy with the album.

From a strictly legal perspective, who gives a damn what the bloody in-laws think?

From a pragmatic viewpoint, you do, because of the negative impact this could have upon your business.

From all suggestion above, I have thought of this solution:
I'll meet up with them in person, asking the previous wedding album back plus a DVD of all the photos they want in the album. After I get the photos they want and the 'damaged' album, I will place an order of the new one. Keep the old one for client meeting purpose.
After all, the contract clearly defines 1x printed album, so I'm allowed to get the previous one back, right?

Absolutely a reasonable approach. And the original album still needs to be in good condition.

No need for them to supply you with a DVD of the images though. Just a list of the images they wish to have, derived from your display gallery of the images that you shot.

I would agree with the comment that you don't need to give them DVD with all the images. [Unless your initial agreement was to give them the DVD] They can choose which ones they want in their album.

Hey Yip, my sympathy to you on this one, I know what a demanding woman this bride can be.

My recollection of the day was there were not too many of the grooms family in attendance although he had lots of mates there. I also recall the Bride's father was not really interested in having his photo taken with his daugther anyway. Remember how he performed outside the church. Maybe you could use this as a mitigating circumstance.

From all suggestion above, I have thought of this solution:
I'll meet up with them in person, asking the previous wedding album back plus a DVD of all the photos they want in the album. After I get the photos they want and the 'damaged' album, I will place an order of the new one. Keep the old one for client meeting purpose.
After all, the contract clearly defines 1x printed album, so I'm allowed to get the previous one back, right?

Thoughts?

Is there a problem with the album. You say it is "damaged". Maybe she should contribute to the replacement cost.

For what it is worth I think it is better to cut your losses, replace the album (at some agreed value, if possible) and move on. I think this woman could become a real pain if she does not get what she wants.

Barry,

barry wrote:Is there a problem with the album. You say it is "damaged". Maybe she should contribute to the replacement cost.

I suspect that he's using the term damaged in a creative manner: the bride considers it to be unsatisfactory, and thus "damaged".

I may be wrong, too.

Good point Gary, you are probably right.

ask Bridezilla to meet with you and bring the album.

sit down with her and get her to show you which shots she wants to include then get out the album and ask her to show you which shots she wants to delete and put a sticker over them with the number of the image she wants in its place.

tell her the new one will be sent to her and you have to keep the album so you have a record of the changes she wanted.

[Otherwise she will be narky about you keeping HER album ]

I got a little bit of a cold sweat reading this post. Im hoping never to have to face this situation...

Good luck with it - sounds like you will work through it and chalk it up to experience.

I must admit to surprise that you selected the photos for the album (regardless of the fact that they were initially happy), I would NEVER do this. You were asking for and have now got trouble. I would always, regardless of time constraints, let the couple pick which photos they wanted in their album. It was their day.

I would now endeavour to meet them halfway on the cost of a new album, it is your reputation which is at stake, especially if you wish to continue to do weddings, where personal recommendations mean so much. Think about it.

I would chalk this one up to experience.

As others have said here, I think the mistake was making the call to select the photos. Unless I had it in writing that time was of the essence and that if the customer couldn't choose then they were happy for you to do it.... I just wouldn't do it.

I've learnt through bitter experience that you just should always get everyhing signed off before proceeding - saves a lot of hassle in the long run.

Get the old album off them (just in case they are just trying to scam an additional album) and re-print a new one with their new choices.

It's a bit rough that they are coming back 6 months later, however you DID give them an opening by not giving them their choice of photos, and not getting a formal acceptance signoff at delivery.

I'll be shooting my brother in law's wedding next weekend.. that should be a ton of joy. Thankfully I think they are pretty easy with the photo side and aren't expecting 100% pro results (though I will do my best). We are simply giving them all the images PPed and they can do whatever they like with them. That is a free of charge shoot though, and I can see the problems that can pop up in a paid situation.

Any update on where this is at?

Oneputt wrote:I must admit to surprise that you selected the photos for the album (regardless of the fact that they were initially happy), I would NEVER do this. You were asking for and have now got trouble. I would always, regardless of time constraints, let the couple pick which photos they wanted in their album.

It is not uncommon to pre design a wedding album and present it to the couple, but you would generally then allow them time to make changes to the order or the content. As Yi-P has said this was not the case. I guess that one of the lessons learned here is to get everything in writing. If Yi-p had i in writing that they gave him permission to design and print the album without their input then they have nothing to come back with.

Also, totally agree with getting the original one back. It can always be used as a sample.