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Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:55 pm**

Managing images and the real reason for photography

Only recently I have noticed the direction that my photography has taken, when I first got a camera it was more for just the ability to capture images and memories, this then tickled a little fancy I became interested in taking shots that were more than just a happy snap or just for memories sake, I got interested in creating, what i thought where/are pleasing images of different genres.

I reckon I have taken a few half decent images over the last 18 months, however recently someone asked me what happened to my gallery and why is it so empty of 'memory shots' and just empty full stop lol!

I really want to get back to that ability to capture memories without the need to try get that perfect picture with the best light or in the best pose and concentrate on getting my images organised so that I can look back in the coming years and see the memories and the journey that is more than just a bunch of pretty photos.

I think, this kinda leads to my question that I am interested to hear thoughts on, especially you crusty old demons out there (did I say that or think that?)

how do you organise your images and adjust your workflow to punch out and publish images which are more memories then the perfect picture? how do you host them? do you just catalogue them on you computer or do you publish them to smugmug etc? are you digilent in processing and publishing them have you been able to maintain this over the years or are you forever tracking down images of the kids to put into slide shows every couple of years?

Anyway its not a clearly defined question, however hopefully I have wrangled out some sense!

Posted: **Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:27 am**

This is a great question and I think keywording can help. (Once you have taken the image that is)

For example, I rate all my images (usu 3 stars= ? to keep, 4 stars=keepers, 5 stars =printable/for gallery)
My keywording is very simple, I have simple keywords for family snaps (which are also starred) and seascapes etc.

I use the "smart" collections to find them [Recently discovered!]

biggerry wrote:I really want to get back to that ability to capture memories without the need to try get that perfect picture

That's going to be hard because it sounds like you need to change your habits, attitudes etc... :wink:

It might be an idea to get a NON photographer to comment on which photos they like best (especially of your family). You will probably be surprised by what they pick!! :roll:

Posted: **Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:55 am**

Im going to wait to read some of these responses.

For those of you that know me a bit better, you will realise that I never post pictures of friends and family on my website/gallery, but I do keep them filed. I dont have any real filing system for keepers, but I do try to sort through recent albums and pull out the A-grade stuff (in my opinion) and file them in a second collection.

Posted: **Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:28 am**

biggerry wrote:how do you organise your images and adjust your workflow to punch out and publish images which are more memories then the perfect picture? how do you host them? do you just catalogue them on you computer or do you publish them to smugmug etc? are you digilent in processing and publishing them have you been able to maintain this over the years or are you forever tracking down images of the kids to put into slide shows every couple of years?

I guess I'm a crusty old demon so I can answer.

For me, the answer is Lightroom. Everything I shoot goes into Lightroom where I can keyword and slice and dice the images. It doesn't matter whether they are snapshots a a family get together or shots of a grey nurse shark, they all go in. From there I can publish them to numerous different places, including RedBubble or my own sites.

One of the great things with RedBubble is the ability to make calendars. A project I have for this year (and I'm already well into it), is to scan some of my dad's old B&W negs of family shots and put 13 of them into a calendar to give to my sisters and brother for Christmas (I hope they don't read this and spoil the surprise). I'll be doing something similar for my wife's family but instead using shots I have taken over the last 28 years.

Here's an example of a memory rather than the perfect picture... I think even the blemishes on the photo adds to the image.

Posted: **Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:11 am**

I also use Lightroom (have done since just before I got my first D-SLR about 18 months ago) - it's uber and I couldn't do this without it.

I shoot a lot of images and for varied things...

- like Gerry I too am keen to hone the skills and create beautiful images - I'll research a style, technique or skill and try to put that to practice and get better if I can - in this regard I'm kind of always taking up and trying new things (photographically) - e.g. Landscapes, Seascapes, Macro, Lighting, Street and so on - and like Gerry I guess painstakingly following those things
- I do however also have a family with three young daughters so on another hat I'm always taking shots of my children and the things we're doing when I can - you don't plan and setup for this - it's candid real life
- lastly I've also kind of become the unofficial/official photographer at the school my three girls now go to - so I'm often photographing events at or for the school - mostly children at the things they do - music, drama, sports events, fundraising events, school functions, excursions, camps and so on - this has certainly increased the scope of the type of shooting I'll do

The last two above keep me "practiced" in the skills of the everyday shooting, capturing moments and memories and shooting styles I'm not doing in #1 - e.g. portraits (candid - I take literally hundreds, perhaps thousands of these), sports, group shots, performances, etc.

So I take a lot of other images which you never see - e.g. at a recent fete our school ran I took an all time one day record of over 1000 images on one day and produced three online web galleries of selects for the organisers, parents and families at our school (images of their children and families having fun, images of various events and activities which were run on the day and images of the fete itself, etc).
I've also gone on some multi day camps and "documented" the days (perhaps 100 to 600 images a day) and then created a web gallery of selects each night - posted them up and emailed the parents so they can see what their kids did each day.

OK Lightroom workflow after a shoot...

- I pretty much keyword everything on or just after import (nothing too fancy - most images might have somewhere between 3 and 8 tags and I generally bulk apply tags)
- I go through and do Rejects (stuff to delete) and some Selects on the first run through after import (and probably add keywords - usually on blocks of images)
- go through and decide the selects (I usually just label with a colour - e.g. yellow (7))
- I limit my view to the selects only and then start rating the images - basically 1* is nice, 2* is almost postable (e.g. to the forum/blog), 3* good enough for public viewing, 4* my favourites (I'd print these), 5* saved for the very few exceptional (in my eyes) images
- fine tune and decide what I'm going to PP (usually 2* and above? - however for school photos this isn't the case since I'm not after what might be technically the best images but rather inclusive photos - e.g. ones which give a broader view of the event, day, children, etc - I try to have as many different children covered from an event even if they aren't necessarily the best overall images)
- PP
- if it's school/event photos I'll then create one or more web galleries for the event (straight out of Lightroom) - upload the folder and email the school and parents the link(s); parents or the school will then usually email me and ask for email or print resolution versions of specific images if they want them
- if it's family photos I'll update an existing gallery (I have a gallery per year) and I'll email my relatives every now and then so they can check out any updates, sometimes I also post some of these to my blog
- if it's my "creative" photography I'll post here and to my blog and every now and then I might update my flickr stream with my highest selects

As far as hosting is concerned I run my own web server so I host my galleries as just Lightroom web gallery folders (I usually use Adobe Flash galleries because atm IMHO they look the best and auto scale for screen size and run the best). One day I hope HTML 5 galleries will be just as good and Adobe will support them in Lightroom (wishing....). For my blog I have my own Wordpress install.

Posted: **Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:16 pm**

Thanks Rodney for the info.

I cull all images below 4 stars. :wink:

I guess I don't want 30,000 'nice' pictures lurking in my drives.... Perhaps I need to re-think my strategy?

Usually this results in less than 10 pictures being kept after a seascape for example.... :violin:

After a family candid shoot, usually a few more creep-in but I am still brutal in this regard.

Posted: **Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:33 pm**

surenj wrote:I cull all images below 4 stars. I guess I don't want 30,000 'nice' pictures lurking in my drives.... Perhaps I need to re-think my strategy?
Usually this results in less than 10 pictures being kept after a seascape for example....

I keep pretty much all my original images (except the outright rejects) in my Lightroom library - however due to me rating and labeling the images (e.g. the yellow "selected" ones) I'm left with only the 10 images to PP and look at and with the filtering bar in Lightroom I can always just click the star or yellow label box to just see only these images and not the whole shabang of "nice" pictures.

Posted: **Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:23 pm**

surenj wrote:That's going to be hard because it sounds like you need to change your habits, attitudes etc...

yeah, its gonna be hard, especially since whatever I do i will have to go back through alot of images, at least they are organised sensibly and it will hopefully provide me with an opportunity to do some culling.

aim54x wrote:For those of you that know me a bit better, you will realise that I never post pictures of friends and family on my website/gallery, but I do keep them filed.

yeah I was like that too, but then realised, really who cares, with the advent of FB or other social mediums the need to protect photos and identity seems to be reduced.

ATJ wrote: I'll be doing something similar for my wife's family but instead using shots I have taken over the last 28 years.

yep you definitely classify as a crusty 'ol demon :wink:

Seriously though its comments like this which I need, cause i don't want to get to 28 years and go 'ehh crap what do i do now'!

ATJ wrote:For me, the answer is Lightroom. Everything I shoot goes into Lightroom where I can keyword and slice and dice the images. It doesn't matter whether they are snapshots a a family get together or shots of a grey nurse shark, they all go in.

hmm, I am considering lightroom, purely from a catalogue point of view. I wish CNX2 did a better job in this regard, if anyone knows of an equivalent means to do this in CNX2 I would happy to hear it.

surenj wrote:Thanks Rodney for the info.

thats some good stuff there rodney

Remorhaz wrote:OK Lightroom workflow after a shoot...

particularly this bit, very helpful for someone who does not use LR. However my only complaint here will be once I get to the PP stage I will move to CNX2, which i have a love/hate relationship, nontheless I can see this working.

What I would love to see is a demo of some peeps workflow using LR :up:

PP session anyone?!

Posted: **Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:43 pm**

biggerry wrote:
Remorhaz wrote:OK Lightroom workflow after a shoot...

particularly this bit, very helpful for someone who does not use LR. However my only complaint here will be once I get to the PP stage I will move to CNX2, which i have a love/hate relationship, nontheless I can see this working.

Lightroom allows you to define external editors for images so you should be able to use Lightroom for all your cataloging/library and output needs (print, slideshow & web) and you can even do all your basic edits in Lightroom as well if you like but you should be able to call out to CNX2 to do your editing from Lightroom if you wish.

What I would love to see is a demo of some peeps workflow using LR PP session anyone?!

If you like I'll bring my laptop to our next meetup and we can spend some time afterwards doing just that - I think I've even got CNX2 on my laptop so we can see if we can get LR and CNX2 to play nice...

Posted: **Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:31 pm**

Remorhaz wrote:If you like I'll bring my laptop to our next meetup and we can spend some time afterwards doing just that - I think I've even got CNX2 on my laptop so we can see if we can get LR and CNX2 to play nice...

that would be excellent!

Posted: **Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:41 pm**

Gerry, when I first started using Lightroom, I was regularly using CaptureNX for "difficult" images. I set up a process that allowed me to open in CaptureNX automatically. Once I started using Lightroom 2 and Camera Profiles I found that I didn't have any "difficult" images and I could do all my post processing in Lightroom.

You can download Lightroom and use it for free for 30 days. Might be worth having a play.

Posted: **Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:39 pm**

ATJ wrote:Camera Profiles

Yes! I have changed my default profile recently and I am happy. the noise reduction and lens corrections in LR 3 is pretty impressive (and very very useful for me :wink:

)

Posted: **Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:04 pm**

ATJ wrote:You can download Lightroom and use it for free for 30 days. Might be worth having a play.

ATJ wrote:the noise reduction and lens corrections in LR 3 is pretty impressive (and very very useful for me )

cheers guys, when I get a spare minute to scratch myself I will install the trial and start having a poke.

Posted: **Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:20 am**

Re: Managing images and the real reason for photography
by Remorhaz on Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:11 am

I also use Lightroom (have done since just before I got my first D-SLR about 18 months ago) - it's uber and I couldn't do this without it.

I shoot a lot of images and for varied things...

- like Gerry I too am keen to hone the skills and create beautiful images - I'll research a style, technique or skill and try to put that to practice and get better if I can - in this regard I'm kind of always taking up and trying new things (photographically) - e.g. Landscapes, Seascapes, Macro, Lighting, Street and so on - and like Gerry I guess painstakingly following those things
- I do however also have a family with three young daughters so on another hat I'm always taking shots of my children and the things we're doing when I can - you don't plan and setup for this - it's candid real life
- lastly I've also kind of become the unofficial/official photographer at the school my three girls now go to - so I'm often photographing events at or for the school - mostly children at the things they do - music, drama, sports events, fundraising events, school functions, excursions, camps and so on - this has certainly increased the scope of the type of shooting I'll do

The last two above keep me "practiced" in the skills of the everyday shooting, capturing moments and memories and shooting styles I'm not doing in #1 - e.g. portraits (candid - I take literally hundreds, perhaps thousands of these), sports, group shots, performances, etc.

So I take a lot of other images which you never see - e.g. at a recent fete our school ran I took an all time one day record of over 1000 images on one day and produced three online web galleries of selects for the organisers, parents and families at our school (images of their children and families having fun, images of various events and activities which were run on the day and images of the fete itself, etc).
I've also gone on some multi day camps and "documented" the days (perhaps 100 to 600 images a day) and then created a web gallery of selects each night - posted them up and emailed the parents so they can see what their kids did each day.

OK Lightroom workflow after a shoot...

- I pretty much keyword everything on or just after import (nothing too fancy - most images might have somewhere between 3 and 8 tags and I generally bulk apply tags)
- I go through and do Rejects (stuff to delete) and some Selects on the first run through after import (and probably add keywords - usually on blocks of images)
- go through and decide the selects (I usually just label with a colour - e.g. yellow (7))
- I limit my view to the selects only and then start rating the images - basically 1* is nice, 2* is almost postable (e.g. to the forum/blog), 3* good enough for public viewing, 4* my favourites (I'd print these), 5* saved for the very few exceptional (in my eyes) images
- fine tune and decide what I'm going to PP (usually 2* and above? - however for school photos this isn't the case since I'm not after what might be technically the best images but rather inclusive photos - e.g. ones which give a broader view of the event, day, children, etc - I try to have as many different children covered from an event even if they aren't necessarily the best overall images)
- PP
- if it's school/event photos I'll then create one or more web galleries for the event (straight out of Lightroom) - upload the folder and email the school and parents the link(s); parents or the school will then usually email me and ask for email or print resolution versions of specific images if they want them
- if it's family photos I'll update an existing gallery (I have a gallery per year) and I'll email my relatives every now and then so they can check out any updates, sometimes I also post some of these to my blog
- if it's my "creative" photography I'll post here and to my blog and every now and then I might update my flickr stream with my highest selects

As far as hosting is concerned I run my own web server so I host my galleries as just Lightroom web gallery folders (I usually use Adobe Flash galleries because atm IMHO they look the best and auto scale for screen size and run the best). One day I hope HTML 5 galleries will be just as good and Adobe will support them in Lightroom (wishing....). For my blog I have my own Wordpress install.
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Want: Carbon Fibre Tripod + RRS Ball Head

I also like using galleries to make some slideshows and send them to my friends or show them when the party starts...

Posted: **Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:08 am**

Spray and pray :wink:

Works best with a 2yo.

I just wish I had time to learn Lightroom, have the book etc sitting here, just not the time.

So have lots of pics that just troll through use other means and cull the out of focus etc pics, keep the rest.

Not too scary as I have <10K shutter count on the D200, and maybe 3K pics from P&S digi cams.

The D3100 for SWMBO has only just arrived, so is <1K shutter.....

But I'd better do it soon, or the process will be impossible.

We just pick the choice family pics and email to a short distribution list after a savage resize and compress to make each pic about 150kb.

Posted: **Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:08 am**

who wrote:Spray and pray Works best with a 2yo.
I just wish I had time to learn Lightroom, have the book etc sitting here, just not the time.

I'd definitely recommend you just start importing your images into LR now before it gets out of hand. Once my girls started going to school and having school events and activities my shot rate dramatically increased. e.g. from this year all three are at school, my D7000 is less than 5 weeks old now and it's shutter count is almost 3,000.

Even if you just use the Library module to just manage your images and do something simple like rename and organise into date based folders on import (which is basically the default behaviour), perhaps add some bulk keywords and then do rejects and selects from the LR interface. Theres almost nothing to learn to do that - most of the "learning" in LR is around all the myriad of options in the Develop module (when you wish to edit your images).

As for generating emailable versions (<150K) - thats also easy from LR - make yourself an Export preset for that (takes 60 seconds) and you're done - from then on just right click on an image and Export to "My 150K Email" (assuming you name your preset that).

Posted: **Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:40 pm**

I have just started using lightroom seriously, Already can say I am not looking back to CNX2. It is by far the best image manager out there, though I am not looking forward to importing and cataloguing all my old photos. It is not the best eidtor though I think it comes close, and as mentioned you can eport to an external editor for those rare finishing touches, then automatically reimport to LR3. This is pretty much seamless for CS5, but should work with any external editor. SO far I have tried a few Panos and HDRs in CS5 - so far I am running that on trial, but I can see a purchase in the near future.

Bear in mind that you can get plugins for it too, and NIK ( who write CNX) have some, so it should be possible to get very close to cnx capability within LR3. Besides managing photos (and videos!) LR3 has non destructive editing. It does this by NEVER altering the original file. All edits are stored as recipes within LR, and applied to the photo each time the photo is shown or exported (be that file, print or slide show) It also has modules for publishing to many of the Web Photo sites like FLickr & SmugMug. It is taking me a little time to get my head around it, but it is a wonderful tool

Posted: **Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:18 pm**

The only thing Lightroom has against it (in my opinion) is Adobe Australia and their greed.

Full version of Lightroom 3 from the US store: US$299 (download)
Full version of Lightroom 3 from the AU store: AU$374 ex GST (download)

Where do they get off charging more than $75 extra for exactly the same product with no extra costs to themselves?

The upgrade price is similarly inflated: US$99 versus AU$123.75 ex GST.

I'm still working through ways to get a legitimate license from the US. I know if I traveled to the US I could walk into a CompUSA and pick up the upgrade in a box for US$99. If I was in NYC I could walk into B&H and get it for US$94. In fact, someone in the US could have it delivered free from B&H for US$94.

Posted: **Mon May 30, 2011 11:18 pm**

Ok lightroom gurus, heres a problem I have.

I want to view and catalogue previous images edited in CNX2, however the edited files only show up in LR3 as the original unedited nef file. That there is a show stopper for me at the moment. Am I missing something?

Posted: **Mon May 30, 2011 11:28 pm**

hmm, its becoming apparent to me that LR is either a all or nothing option if your gonna deal with raw files.

most advice I have seen to this point is that people who use LR and CNX duplicate the nef files with a tiff file - this in my books is not acceptable, the last thing i want to do is double rteh number of files just to be able to use LR as a catalogue tool..

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2011 12:25 am**

You may want to throw away your nef files then.... :wink:

Imagine though, those dratted TIFFs would be 10 times larger than your nef.

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2011 12:27 am**

Actually, why don't you convert to DNG from CX then use LR exclusively?

Oh wait...the DNG won't carry your edits through. Perhaps someone might write a plugin for this conversion?

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2011 8:27 am**

Gerry,
How did you get your files into LR?

If you used the standard import, it may have ignored the sidecar files where the edits are stored.
In Lightroom, edits are stored in two possible places.
1. THe catalog
2. The sidecar fles.
By default LR does not use the sidecars unless you manually write to them. There is a preference you can set to change this behaviour

My guess is that CNX2 uses the sidecar files.
Try reading the edits back from the file after you have edited. This should get things back in sync. You will lose the history of you redits though

Try "Read Metadata from file" in the "Photo" menu I am pretty sure that reads edits as well as the metadata.

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2011 9:36 am**

Mr Darcy wrote:My guess is that CNX2 uses the sidecar files.

Capture NX/NX2 does use a sidecar file, but it must be embedded into the NEF itself, not a seperate sidecar file.

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2011 9:41 am**

biggerry wrote:hmm, its becoming apparent to me that LR is either a all or nothing option if your gonna deal with raw files.

I gave up using NX/NX2 long ago when I started using Lightroom. LR lets me do all the post processing I want to do.

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2011 10:55 am**

Mr Darcy wrote:Gerry,
How did you get your files into LR?

If you used the standard import, it may have ignored the sidecar files where the edits are stored.

I believe I did a standard import, however I did ensure the metadata was imported as well. Upon further inspection all the metadata and ratings etc were imported.

In a nutshell, can LR3 read the 'sidecar' (if indeed thats what its called) file in a nef? 35% of my images are edited nef files, hence if LR3 cannot display these modified files its pretty well useless for me. The thing I like about the nef files is that its all contained in teh nef file, not side file or catalogue, no camera profile etc. I can open up my nef on any computer with CNX2 installed and it is the same, straight out of teh box.

Mr Darcy wrote:Try "Read Metadata from file" in the "Photo" menu I am pretty sure that reads edits as well as the metadata.

I will double check that tonight.

ATJ wrote:I gave up using NX/NX2 long ago when I started using Lightroom. LR lets me do all the post processing I want to do.

each to their own - i have time and files invested in CNX2 and would like to continue to use CNX2 as an editor, imo the editing abilities and the single nef file makes it a winner in my books.

At this point, even windows indexer and preview (win7) works quite well as an intermediate image catalogue

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2011 11:11 am**

DNG works the same way Gerry. I convert everything to DNG on import. It's a smaller file compared to the native CR2 file too.

LR can be set to add the changes to the image file rather than the catalog.

I use flags to quickly sort the images I want to keep from those I don't. The choice for me is that simple. I find it complicated to rate an image over 5 different star rating.

If I do HDR or something like that where multiple images make up one final image then I just stack the images with the final edit on top of the pile.

Gerry, if you'd like to borrow my Scott Kelby LR3 book then you're more than welcome. It might help answer some of your questions and devise a workflow that suits your needs.

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2011 11:45 am**

Gerry,
I went looking on the lightroom forums. The best answer I found is NOT good news.
http://forums.adobe.com/message/1377086#1377086
Basically, LR cannot read Nikon's CNX2 proprietary changes to the NEF.

Here is the top of the forum if you want to look further or ask your own question - the above one is about 3 years old. The answer may have changed.:
http://forums.adobe.com/community/lightroom?view=discussions&start=0

I too have a fair back catalogue of photos in CNX2, but put off dealing with the back catalogue until I came back from my trip. I started using LR on the trip and for me the advances in cataloging far outweigh any use that CNX2 still has.
What I will probably end up doing, now I know LR won't read the edits made, is just import the files to LR, but revert to CNX2 when I need to look at any up to date image. Luckily I tend not to do a lot of PP, so my edited photos are nothing like 35%. I will set a keyword along the lines of √EditedInCNX2 to the old images as a warning to me.

Going forward, I will probably buy the NIK software suite as a LR plugin, as I very much like the CNX2 editing regime, especially the control points. I know Stubbsy has gone down this route.

EDIT: I really should have applied Thom Hogans Guide to buying a tripod to my Editing suite. I have bought and discarded CS2, CS3, CNX, CNX2, Aperture and now LR. With a view to buying CS5 ( for panos and HDRs ) and the NIK plugins

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2011 11:59 am**

biggerry wrote:\ imo the editing abilities and the single nef file makes it a winner in my books.

When you use LR on its own you only have single NEF files and no changes are made to the NEF files at all.

You have a problem because of the back catalog done with NX2. You could start from now and use LR for all future work and not have a problem (with the new stuff). It may even be possible to create an edit action within LR to open the older NEF files with NX2.

You could even create JPEG files from the edited NEFs so you can at least display in LR what they look like now in NX2.

But you are correct, each to their own. As with Greg, I find that the total capabilities of LR far outweigh those of NX2. I would not be able to process the photos from a dive for adding to my dive log using NX2. LR lets me automate so much of the process.

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2011 12:36 pm**

Thinking about this some more, I have a suggestion for you, Gerry...

Maybe put the past on hold for a bit and think about the future. Give Lightroom a go for a few weeks with new images only. See if you can do all your editing/processing with Lightroom alone. Use the keywording, automation and other features. Use the develop module to make adjustments to your images.

See how it works for you. If it doesn't then stick with what you have now. If it does work, then, and only then, do you need to consider how you handle your existing image files.

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2011 12:58 pm**

Like others in this thread, I liked the visual results from NX2, although I was never particularly happy with the clunky interface and slow speed of the program.

I find that I can do 99% of everything I need in LR3. I do use Nik software too, and it integrates into LR well.

I occasionally need PS to do specific things like perspective correction and some cloning that is beyond LR.

I made myself walk away from NX2 and haven't regretted it.

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2011 2:42 pm**

Mr Darcy wrote:Gerry,
I went looking on the lightroom forums. The best answer I found is NOT good news.

yep, i have found similar comments across the web, all with various methods of dealing with it, none of which i have found acceptable as of yet.

ATJ wrote:Maybe put the past on hold for a bit and think about the future. Give Lightroom a go for a few weeks with new images only

thats exactly what I have been doing for the last few days.

Wink wrote:DNG works the same way Gerry. I convert everything to DNG on import. It's a smaller file compared to the native CR2 file too.

LR can be set to add the changes to the image file rather than the catalog.

i like changes to the file... :up:

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2011 3:24 pm**

biggerry wrote:
Wink wrote:DNG works the same way Gerry. I convert everything to DNG on import. It's a smaller file compared to the native CR2 file too.

LR can be set to add the changes to the image file rather than the catalog.

i like changes to the file...

Whilst I know there was a strong movement to try and get everyone to convert to DNG (as a single extensible RAW format - which sounded great in theory) (including the camera manufacturers to switch to DNG instead of their own proprietary RAW formats) but practically no-one does this (camera manufacturers or users apparently) so I'm not sure if this is an ideal solution (it may be technically better but if no-one does it it's like BetaMax, DAT tapes, SACD and so on - gone with the Dodo).

Also remember you're original intent - you want something which aids in your overall workflow - which includes getting your work out there, galleries updated, stuff printed, whatever - so don't just consider the editing part of Lightroom (the Develop module) against NX2 - but also consider how the Library will work over time (want to find that shot you took with the 105/2.5 @ 2.5 with your niece in it, etc) and especially things like the Web (one click web galleries, etc) and Print modules and the customisable Export and Publishing (Flickr, etc) functions.

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2011 4:25 pm**

Remorhaz wrote:also consider how the Library will work over time (want to find that shot you took with the 105/2.5 @ 2.5 with your niece in it, etc) and especially things like the Web (one click web galleries, etc) and Print modules and the customisable Export and Publishing (Flickr, etc) functions.

And this is exactly why I have decided to to toe the LR line. Its far superior cataloging ( and finding!!!) potential outweighs any perceived lack in the editing department. There are a few holes, but not many, and program extensions (plug-ins) can easily fill those.

The only program that comes close is Aperture, and it has its own problems, and is not extensible.

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2011 9:23 pm**

Remorhaz wrote:Also remember you're original intent - you want something which aids in your overall workflow - which includes getting your work out there, galleries updated, stuff printed, whatever - so don't just consider the editing part of Lightroom (the Develop module) against NX2 - but also consider how the Library will work over time (want to find that shot you took with the 105/2.5 @ 2.5 with your niece in it, etc) and especially things like the Web (one click web galleries, etc) and Print modules and the customisable Export and Publishing (Flickr, etc) functions.

Mr Darcy wrote:And this is exactly why I have decided to to toe the LR line. Its far superior cataloging ( and finding!!!) potential outweighs any perceived lack in the editing department. There are a few holes, but not many, and program extensions (plug-ins) can easily fill those.

good points - i know the benefits of the cataloging and all the associated publishing extras, this is why i am bothering to even look at the program, but not being able to preview previous edited files is cumbersome, for example a shot that is cropped and basic tweaks added, d-light and contrast looks vastly different to teh raw file, hence when browsing thru LR3 its like looking at a whole different set of images.

On the note of the 105mm f2.5, does not matter sine there is nothin of use in the metabada for that lens when it was attached to the D80, gets listed as 0mm f0.0 :rotfl2:

Thats the great thing about the D7000 i know know all my settings etc for each manual lens...woot!

ATJ wrote:When you use LR on its own you only have single NEF files and no changes are made to the NEF files at all.

I don't see that as a plus unfortunately

Thanks heaps for all the comments and suggestions I owe ya'all a beer (each if our lucky) :up:

Posted: **Tue May 31, 2011 10:17 pm**

You could export your NX2 files as TIFF's. Then LR3 will read your edits.

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:25 am**

Wink wrote:You could export your NX2 files as TIFF's. Then LR3 will read your edits.

Or even JPEGS which will be a lot smaller and you can stack them with the .nef files. This will at least let you see the edits in LR.

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:28 am**

It's got me wondering... If you exported the NEF files from NX2 as TIFF's (so your edits were readable) and then imported them into LR and converted to DNG on import then you'd go back to a 'normal' file size with all the flexibility of a RAW file without the huge file size of the TIFF's.

Maybe test a few images and see if it works.

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:49 am**

Wink wrote:It's got me wondering... If you exported the NEF files from NX2 as TIFF's (so your edits were readable) and then imported them into LR and converted to DNG on import then you'd go back to a 'normal' file size with all the flexibility of a RAW file without the huge file size of the TIFF's.

I don't know how NX2 works, but if it is anything like LR it should let you undo any changes you make, i.e. it stores the changes to the .nef file rather than the end result. If this is the case, converting to TIFF would mean that information is lost and you'd only have the final version.

Of course, if NX2 only stores the final version in the .nef and doesn't let you get back to the original version, it is bad and moving to LR is a very good idea for this alone.

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:37 am**

ATJ wrote:
Wink wrote:It's got me wondering... If you exported the NEF files from NX2 as TIFF's (so your edits were readable) and then imported them into LR and converted to DNG on import then you'd go back to a 'normal' file size with all the flexibility of a RAW file without the huge file size of the TIFF's.

I don't know how NX2 works, but if it is anything like LR it should let you undo any changes you make, i.e. it stores the changes to the .nef file rather than the end result. If this is the case, converting to TIFF would mean that information is lost and you'd only have the final version.

Of course, if NX2 only stores the final version in the .nef and doesn't let you get back to the original version, it is bad and moving to LR is a very good idea for this alone.

NX2 definitely allows you to get back to the original...and even deactivate steps (not deleting them). I have had NEF files that contain the steps for 3-4 output files and it is a simple matter of deactivating and activating specific steps before saving an output file.

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:54 pm**

aim54x wrote:NX2 definitely allows you to get back to the original...and even deactivate steps (not deleting them). I have had NEF files that contain the steps for 3-4 output files and it is a simple matter of deactivating and activating specific steps before saving an output file.

Then converting to TIFF then DNG would result in the loss of this information.

Back to my JPEG suggestion. Exporting the old images to JPEG and storing both (raw+JPEG) in LR would work and is similar to capturing raw+JPEG. JPEGs are quite small so there wouldn't me much space used. The images could be stacked so that the JPEG images are on top allowing the end results of the changes made in NX2 to be seen. The raw would be available (by unstacking) if changes were to be made in LR, otherwise the raw file could be opened in NX2. I also believe the JPEGs could be exported as JPEGs in LR without loss of quality - e.g. for the web, etc.

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:53 pm**

aim54x wrote:NX2 definitely allows you to get back to the original...and even deactivate steps (not deleting them). I have had NEF files that contain the steps for 3-4 output files and it is a simple matter of deactivating and activating specific steps before saving an output file.

exactly, all steps are retained and with a drop menu to go to teh original, last saved or any number of pre-defined versions is great, all in a single file. imo its the best in terms of non destructive editing, the other plus is that its pretty space efficient given what you are containing in the single file.

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:29 pm**

biggerry wrote: the other plus is that its pretty space efficient given what you are containing in the single file.

Gerry, what is the average size difference between a typical edited file and an original nef?

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:53 pm**

biggerry wrote:exactly, all steps are retained and with a drop menu to go to teh original, last saved or any number of pre-defined versions is great, all in a single file. imo its the best in terms of non destructive editing, the other plus is that its pretty space efficient given what you are containing in the single file.

Lightroom allows you to do the exact same thing, including creating multiple virtual copies (same as your pre-defined versions). The only difference is it stores it in the catalog rather than the original file. (I actually think this is better as there's no risk of the original file becoming corrupted).

Lightroom is also very space efficient. My Lightroom catalog is only around 600MB and contains 30-40,000 image files.

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:04 pm**

ATJ wrote:The only difference is it stores it in the catalog rather than the original file.

I think this is what Gerry dislikes about LR?

biggerry wrote:gets listed as 0mm f0.0

You could keyword it as 105 or something so you can at least identify if required (not sure why you'd want to though? :?:

)

aim54x wrote:I have had NEF files that contain the steps for 3-4 output files and it is a simple matter of deactivating and activating specific steps before saving an output file.

No need for this in LR with virtual copies. You can have multiple versions without having to deactivate etc. I have found it harder to publish those virtual copies though.

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:11 pm**

ATJ wrote:Lightroom allows you to do the exact same thing, including creating multiple virtual copies (same as your pre-defined versions). The only difference is it stores it in the catalog rather than the original file. (I actually think this is better as there's no risk of the original file becoming corrupted).
Lightroom is also very space efficient. My Lightroom catalog is only around 600MB and contains 30-40,000 image files

I agree and prefer this - i.e. my NEF originals can be safe from harm (read only) and even offline (i.e. shift older files to external drives) but they still appear in my catalog for viewing, etc. All my PP is stored in the LR catalog or if you do want to send the single NEF off to someone (with your edits) you can by creating the XMP sidecar file to go with it which contains your edits for just that file. i.e. you get both worlds without changing your original source NEF in ways which may not be readable by other apps.

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:42 pm**

Remorhaz wrote:I agree and prefer this - i.e. my NEF originals can be safe from harm (read only) and even offline (i.e. shift older files to external drives) but they still appear in my catalog for viewing, etc. All my PP is stored in the LR catalog or if you do want to send the single NEF off to someone (with your edits) you can by creating the XMP sidecar file to go with it which contains your edits for just that file. i.e. you get both worlds without changing your original source NEF in ways which may not be readable by other apps.

The other major benefit (for me at least) with NOT updating the .nef file with updates is backup. I only ever have to back up my .nef files once (well, OK, I do back them up multiple times but that's for redundancy and they are all the same). Each time you make a change with NX2 (no matter how small the change may be) you have to back up the whole .nef again. You may end up having to back up the same file 10 or 20 times - at 10-20MB per file, that's a lot of backing up.

With LR, you only have to back it up once and you just back up the catalog on a regular basis and it is reasonably small.

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:16 pm**

surenj wrote:
ATJ wrote:The only difference is it stores it in the catalog rather than the original file.

I think this is what Gerry dislikes about LR?

You can set LR to write the changes to the files.

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:19 pm**

Remorhaz wrote:All my PP is stored in the LR catalog or if you do want to send the single NEF off to someone (with your edits) you can by creating the XMP sidecar file to go with it which contains your edits for just that file.

Or you can export the file as DNG and then the image with the edits will all be contained in one file. No need for the sidecar file.

Posted: **Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:29 pm**

surenj wrote:Gerry, what is the average size difference between a typical edited file and an original nef?

take this one for example

this one probably is at the larger end of my range with 9 edit steps, however there does not seem to be a relationship with the number or type of edits and the increase in file size.

the original unedited version is ~18mb the edited version ~22mb

hers another version for you

before ~16mb
after ~18mb

I am not really here to debate the differences between LR3 and CNX2, I personally prefer CNX2 from an editing point of view - the DAM aspect of CNX2 is nonexistent and this is where my main gripe comes from. LR3 is a great DAM, no dispute there, however for me to integrate into that system is not straight forward, straight out of the bag I am not going to convert existing raw files to any other format purely for a DAM process - that imo is time wasting and I would be off spending the time editing current photos...

The other turn off for me from a catalogue point is the reliance on LR3, you are essentially locked into that DAM for good, other issues including possible corruption of catalogues whilst not necessarily a risk still play on my mind. I really like the fact that I can take my nef file and put it on any computer (obviously with the raw codec installed for windows explorer or viewNX or CNX2) and with no other effort besides emailing a single file it is viewable and editable.

with win7 and explorer and the search function you can get some half decent results, for example, the search picks up tags which I reckons pretty neat straight out of teh box.

ATJ wrote: biggerry wrote:exactly, all steps are retained and with a drop menu to go to teh original, last saved or any number of pre-defined versions is great, all in a single file. imo its the best in terms of non destructive editing, the other plus is that its pretty space efficient given what you are containing in the single file.

Lightroom allows you to do the exact same thing, including creating multiple virtual copies (same as your pre-defined versions). The only difference is it stores it in the catalog rather than the original file. (I actually think this is better as there's no risk of the original file becoming corrupted

well its not exactly the same thing then is it really :wink:

I don't understand how this can be a better thing for protecting your files and backing up, whats the use of 40k worth of files (essentially negatives) if you lose the edited versions? (ie catalogue). I guess I can't see the value in keeping teh original unedited raw file, i know if something happened and I lost even a few thousand edits on files I would not be going back to re-edit them - way too much work. Whilst there is a chance that a raw file can be corrupt etc, this is slim and probably limited to typical disk failures and errors and at the end of the day you may lose some images but not a whole catalogue for 40k of images.

Now, i assume there are plenty of safe guards (including backups by the program itself) for the catalogue and there appears to be a number of recovery options, however a brief search on 'corrupt lightroom catalogue' does produce some interesting results..