To TTL, or not...?

[Aussie Dave]

Hi all,
I was hoping to get your thoughts on whether you think getting TTL speed lights is worth the extra outlay.

To give you some background, I am looking at getting into portraiture photography and currently own a Nikon SB800.
I am looking to purchase some speed lights and radio triggers and have my eyes set on either the Yongnuo YN560-IV or the YN-568EX.

The 560's are a completely manual flash which I feel comfortable in using (I generally use my SB800 in manual mode now) and understand how manual flash works.
However, the 568EX offers the ability to use TTL, which I am thinking for moving subjects where subject to flash distance may vary TTL would be a valuable tool to have. And of course I could still use the 568EX in manual mode when I wanted to have 100% control over the light output.

I'm just not sure how much I would use the TTL feature.
The 568EX is $130AUD/unit + cost of radio trigger (approx $45ea), I'd prefer this over optical though I know this is a cheaper option.
The 560IV is $70AUD/unit

As for the radio triggers, to control the 568EX's I can get the YN622n-TX to control these units from the camera, which supports TTL (and High Speed Sync - which I might also enjoy playing with) and I can purchase the YN-622n transceivers to trigger the flashes which aren't that expensive ($90/pack of 2).

The bonus for the 560's is that the wireless receiver is built "into" the flash itself, so only a controller is needed (the YN560-TX)...and for the SB800 I can use the RF603II or the new RF605 trigger which will trigger the flash that is mounted to it.
The downside is that the 560's don't support TTL (and don't natively support HSS, though I believe there is a manual trick you can use to "sort of" achieve this - by using the SB800 on-camera in FP mode, set to 1/128 power so it barely contributes to the lighting scenario, to optically trigger the 560 which must be set at 1/1 power, which should allow 1/4000-1/8000 shutter).

I am also thinking of buying the Westcott 32" Rapid Box Octa Duo (which can take dual speed lights), hence my reason for looking at 3 flash units (2 for the Octabox and 1 as a fill light) + my existing SB800 (hair light or background fill or spare in case of emergency).
I also intend on getting a couple of umbrellas and stands etc so I have other options available, particularly for lighting groups/larger areas.

I find myself moving back and forth between the two flash options and like the fact that the 560's have wireless trigger in-built and that they are cheaper, but the TTL and HSS options of the 568 interest me as well (albeit at a higher price point).

If you were in my shoes, what would you do?
Is there something I am missing or not thinking of?
Do you think TTL (and HSS) is really worth it, or is full manual the way to go?

Thanks in advance....

[bigsarg7]

Personally if it were me I would be going TTL flashes. I personally like the Nikon flashes with Phottix triggers. I think they work great and quite flexible. I've used Yongnuo triggers before but I preferred the Phottix triggers over them. Phottix have a few different options and if you buy directly off them its cheaper. I've got mine on gumtree for sale as I no longer have a Nikon camera, otherwise I would be keeping them. I had already sold one set which I used the most and only left with the ones I brought late last year which were used once or twice before swapping over to Fuji.

Good luck with it all. As I said if it were me I would be going the TTL option.

[Matt. K]

TTL if you use the longer focal length lenses...say, anything over about 85mm. I often use fill flash with an 80-200mm and couldn't imagine doing it without TTL.

[ozimax]

I like using flash but rarely use it. I still have my Canon 430i but it doesn't of course sync with the Fuji, but is still useful with flash triggers.

[Aussie Dave]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Kristen, I did look at both the PocketWizards and the Phottix Odin systems and both are VERY nice but also quite expensive.
Pricing the Odin system with a controller and 4 receivers is a little over $600, compared to the Yongnuo system for similar units at a little over $200.
The Phottix Mitros+ flashes have in-built receivers but are $399ea (vs the Yongnuo 568EX's at $130).

I think I'll stick with the Yongnuo system to get started with and I can always upgrade to better/nicer kit down the track.
The more I think about it the TTL system does give me the best of both worlds (TTL and manual), whereas the manual system will always have me wondering if I should have gone the TTL route.

Matt, forgive me if I am missing something but I'm not sure what you mean by using/preferring TTL for longer focal lengths.
Do you mean because I'd be standing further from the flash units to walk back & forth to adjust them?
Otherwise, I thought the distance between subject and light source makes the difference in flash photography - not the focal length being used???

The other bonus with the TTL system is being able to use High-speed sync. I have been playing around with this a little on the SB800 and I love being able to darken the background and make the subject "pop".

[Matt. K]

Dave
I was referring to' on camera flash'. I use it at around minus 1.3 stops on long focal length lenses when doing stuff like demonstrations or street parades, ANZAC day marches and some sports. You'd be surprised how far it throws and it gives a nice 'lift' to the images as well as filling the shadows a tad.

[Aussie Dave]

A-ha, thanks Matt...that makes sense to me now.
I anticipate most of my shoots will be fully off-camera flash but I have found similar results previously when working with my SB800 (turning the flash comp down so it isn't so prominent/strong).

This is one area that concerns me with TTL. The variation one can get between each shot. It can only take something like the subject turning and filling more/less of the frame for the camera to meter the scene differently and expose the flash differently to the previous shot - which may be a pain in post-prod.

At present (for my portrait shoots), my intention would be to run in manual setup if I am setting up a lighting scenario where the subject is stationery and if there are times where the subject's distance from the flash will vary between shots (kids moving around etc), then I'd utilise TTL. Of course if I were out taking candids then TTL would certainly make more sense - but what I am looking at doing will (hopefully) be in more of a controlled environment where the lighting between shots in a series should be consistent (especially for skin tones).

[chrisk]

i don't use TTL. exposure variation drove me nuts and lack of control was an issue for me. i much prefer to set light manually to get the lighting effect i want. i use cybersyncs and have been very happy. range and reliability have been excellent since i bought them about 5 years ago i would guess. they are transferable to any flash, (i use old sb28's), or any camera, they take AA's and have great battery life. and best of all, they were very cost effective compared to equivalent systems.

[Matt. K]

In a controlled situation such as a studio or setting up for large group shots then manual control is the correct method to use. And of course, with digital photography you can check the exposure and make fine adjustments on the fly or before the shoot. I use a WIFI flash card in those situations and have the file sent directly to my iPad where I can zoom into critical areas of the image.

[gstark]

This is one area that concerns me with TTL. The variation one can get between each shot. It can only take something like the subject turning and filling more/less of the frame for the camera to meter the scene differently and expose the flash differently to the previous shot - which may be a pain in post-prod.

And that's the major issue if you're trying to use auto exposure in the studio. I won't go so far as to sa it's wrong, but it probably is.

You're in a situation where you have total control of the lighting conditions, and the ability to make them static. Why would you want to move to a variable lighting scenario, where, as you correctly point out, the lights' quality and output can change on a shot by shot basis under that sort of situation.

Manual control, chimp your images to get everything as you want it, and then just shoot, shoot and shoot some more.

[Aussie Dave]

Very good point guys.
If I were shooting in a studio or stable lighting environment then I would absolutely shoot in manual 100% of the time. Lock in the lighting and then be free to concentrate on taking the photos.

Where I see TTL being of benefit is perhaps on those occasions where the shoot is, for example, outside on a sunny (but cloudy) day, where the clouds are constantly going in and out, changing the lighting as a result.
In this environment would TTL perhaps be the better of two evils, instead of having to adjust lighting manually all the time?
Or perhaps if kids were involved and "candid portraits" were the objective, the distance from subject to light source would likely be changing on-the-fly, so TTL would have a better chance at adapting to this.
Otherwise I completely agree that for studio type shoots, whilst TTL could be used, manual would be the far better option.

The other side of the coin for TTL (which is capturing my interest greatly) is the ability to utilise high-speed sync (or Auto-FP for us Nikon folk), which can only function in a TTL environment.

[chrisk]

dave the only time i want ttl is if the subjects themselves are moving fast.
if the environment is changing, i still prefer manual cos ttl can be frustrating in the exposures it picks for me personally. if you use light modifiers like grids, snoots, gels, light diffusers or other things like that it gets even more tricky with ttl.

apart from the exposure control, i guess the main driver for me using a trigger was more about the flexibility to be able to use them on any camera from any manufacturer rather than be tied to nikon. and given i no longer shoot nikon bodies, it wasn't a bad decision i guess ! lol

[chrisk]

Btw: have you considered continuous led lighting ? There are some awesome options out there that can be quite cost effective. I have a few smaller ones if you're interested in some info.

[Aussie Dave]

Thanks for your comments Chris.
I did briefly look at Continuous/LED lighting but I like the idea of speed lights more.

You do make good points about TTL and their issues with being used with snoots, diffusers etc (of which I will be using).
That and the fact the manual systems aren't really locked into a manufacturer now have me leaning towards a manual system.

To be honest the HSS part of TTL was what really had me contemplating this direction but after much reading about HSS out in daylight I would need a handful of TTL flashes to really make it worthwhile - which would amount to a small fortune.
Looking at the options it seems a better direction to tackle this would be to use ND filters to knock down the light, allowing larger apertures to be used for shorter DoF whilst staying within the flash sync speed of the camera body.

Still doing some further reading about all this but at the moment I'm leaning towards manual speed lights and triggers along with some ND filters.

Has anyone had any experience in using ND filters with flash outdoors (to obtain the use of large apertures for short doF)?
If so, how did you find it worked for you?

The other bonus is that I would have ND filters for landscape photos...