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I did a shoot this morning, for a soup kitchen in Detroit, using the 50 f/1.4. I set white balance immediately upon arrival, with an expodisc. One end of the building had large, high, bare windows that provided some bright sunlight and of course, some blown out areas..... I took approximately 450 shots in 2 hours and was unpleasantly surprised by the large variations in WB. I also learned that the 50 will backfocus when connected to the Kenko 300 pro 1.4x TC...

The changing color temps of the lights as they flickered just about drove me nuts..... It was the most challenging shoot I've ever done and I learned a great deal, which is about the only positive aspect of the shoot. My keeper rate is going to suck rocks... ... The DOF and sharpness of the 50 at f/4 is rather incredible.

I'd have been much better off using flash, but the hostility levels in the place were already sufficiently high that I didn't want to start a riot... OTOH, a number of folks asked to have their photos taken. It was an interesting time and well worth the aggravation.

I sympathise Kerry...
Can't you rescue the WB/Exposure in the RAW??? I'd love to see some of the photos when you're ready...

Hi Kerry
This is an interesting post.
I am assuming that a "soup kitchen" is a place where destitute or homeless people are offered food - is this the case?
If so, from a photographic viewpoint, I think I'd be wanting to use natural light as you did, rather than flash, which would have been more intrusive. I'm tipping that you'll have some interesting PJ-type shots among those 450.
Did the morning light keep changing? I guess that's also why you'd have differing WBs, although you would have different WB in different parts of the building, particularly if the lights themselves were not in good condition. Did you take more than one ExpoDisc reading, or will you correct in PP?
Was the experience with the 50 f1.4 and the TC a total waste of time? If you lost more than 1 stop, maybe the kit lens would have been better to use.
Anyway, I hope we get to see some images - sounds like a good experience.

leek wrote:I sympathise Kerry...
Can't you rescue the WB/Exposure in the RAW??? I'd love to see some of the photos when you're ready...

Thanks for the sympathy, John.

I shot in JPG, but the WB isn't really the problem with the keeper rate. I can fix that in post. The biggest problems I had were with focus and exposures being blown out or severely underexposed.

The outer focus points don't work well at all in those conditions, especially with dark subjects. There simply wasn't enough contrast for them to work properly, resulting in a lot of OOF shots.

The exposure thing was my fault. With the constantly changing shooting I was doing, I didn't keep up with selecting the proper metering mode and I'm way too unfamiliar with center-weighted metering. It was quite frustrating, especially after reviewing them. I took over a dozen shots of one person, changing metering several times and still never got a good exposure....

I've never attempted a shoot in conditions like this before and learned a lot, but at this point, have more questions than answers. I told the friar, before I started, that I didn't expect miracles, but if he could pull a couple of strings, I'd likely have a better keeper rate. He just laughed...

cricketfan wrote:Hi Kerry
This is an interesting post.
I am assuming that a "soup kitchen" is a place where destitute or homeless people are offered food - is this the case?

Yes. It's run by the Catholic church. The vast majority of the people that come to the facility are the city's poorest black people.

If so, from a photographic viewpoint, I think I'd be wanting to use natural light as you did, rather than flash, which would have been more intrusive.

That's the reason I didn't want to use flash. What I'd hoped for was candid type shots. That opportunity didn't really materialize. I'd underestimated the amount of animous and mistrust between our respective races. They were fully aware of my presence and position in the room, every second.

I'm tipping that you'll have some interesting PJ-type shots among those 450.

dunno. It's completely out of my realm of experience and inclination to do PJ type stuff. I'm more of an artsy fartsy rather than PJ kind of guy.

Did the morning light keep changing? I guess that's also why you'd have differing WBs, although you would have different WB in different parts of the building, particularly if the lights themselves were not in good condition. Did you take more than one ExpoDisc reading, or will you correct in PP?

The sunlight did change a little, but the biggest problem was the lights. The color temps would change so fast that 3 burst shots produced 3 different color casts. I didn't bother with another Expodisc reading after I figured out what was going on. When my shots were timed with the light fluctuations, WB was near perfect. Shooting raw would have been a better choice in that respect, since I'll have to fuss with the images more than anticipated anyway.

Was the experience with the 50 f1.4 and the TC a total waste of time? If you lost more than 1 stop, maybe the kit lens would have been better to use.

I'm not sure what happened there. It looks like the TC caused a huge backfocus issue, like 2 inches or so. Light loss was 1 stop, going from f/1.4 to f/1.8 or f/2 IIRC, so that's not a big deal. Part of the problem was caused by using the outer focus points, but even the center focus point produced very soft images with the TC. I had my 35-70 f/2.8 in my pocket, but didn't use it because I didn't realize the misfocus problems with the TC until I got home.

Anyway, I hope we get to see some images - sounds like a good experience.

heh, it certainly was an interesting experience. I expect to try again at least a couple more times. Dunno how many shots I'll end up keeping. I did a lot of PJ stuff for the friar, that I wouldn't normally do, and don't find those shots appealing. But, I might have half a dozen shots that came out the way I wanted. If that's true, I'll be quite happy.

Hi Kerry

Fully understand your frustration - I have been on shoots where I thought all was well, only to find out that I had a focus or exposure problem (Nikon D1).

These days I try and manually focus as much as possible when under difficult lighting conditions. I shoot RAW and do a rescue job afterwards.

OT, but interesting, I read an article a few years back about the cosmetics industry and how, lipstick in particular, had to be totally rethought for black ladies. In photography the same principles apply.

sirhc55 wrote:Hi Kerry

Fully understand your frustration - I have been on shoots where I thought all was well, only to find out that I had a focus or exposure problem (Nikon D1).

These days I try and manually focus as much as possible when under difficult lighting conditions. I shoot RAW and do a rescue job afterwards.

OT, but interesting, I read an article a few years back about the cosmetics industry and how, lipstick in particular, had to be totally rethought for black ladies. In photography the same principles apply.

Hi Chris,

Most of my frustration stems from my lack of experience and knowledge. Unfortunately, manual focus doesn't work well for me on the d70, partly because of the small viewfinder and the rest because of my eyesight. I suspect that my focus problems would have been worse in MF...

Of course, a pro body would have made things much easier for the focus issues. Perhaps the d2x would have helped on the WB and exposure problems as well, but I tend to believe that the exposure issues were just my lack of skill.

Shooting dark subjects in poor lighting is quite a challenge. Of the many things I learned today, one is that I'll lock the center focus point, probably switch the focus to the AEL button, focus and then frame the shot rather than try to use the outer focus points, in such conditions. I'd done that at the dog show, but only because I usually had plenty of time. In this instance, that would have meant a lot of missed opportunities.

I've got to carefully review the shots and try to come up with a better plan of attack for the next session...

Kerry,

Sounds like it was a most interesting and enjoyable (if that's the right term) albieit frustrating experience.

For the exposure, I'd have been using spot, rather than centre-weighted or matrix modes. Given that you mentioned that many of the subjects were black, that only adds to the complexities in the exposure calculations.

The subject matter will render, to your meter, as darker than it would normally be expecting, and therefore there might be an tendancy towards the metering system wanting to overexpose the shots. Dialling in about a -2/3 stop adjustment might help to compensate for that.

As to the colour balance; seeing as how you shot iun jpg, forget it; convert the images to B&W, which is probably more suited to the nature of the shoot anyway, and knock the contrast up a notch.

gstark wrote:Kerry,

Sounds like it was a most interesting and enjoyable (if that's the right term) albieit frustrating experience.

For the exposure, I'd have been using spot, rather than centre-weighted or matrix modes. Given that you mentioned that many of the subjects were black, that only adds to the complexities in the exposure calculations.

It was certainly interesting and mostly enjoyable. I used all 3 metering modes, depending on what the subject required. For close facial shots, spot was used with a -EV. For WA stuff, I used the others.

As to the colour balance; seeing as how you shot iun jpg, forget it; convert the images to B&W, which is probably more suited to the nature of the shoot anyway, and knock the contrast up a notch.

Dunno for sure, but I don't think the WB is gonna be a problem to fix, if needed. But, there will be a lot of B&W coming out of the shoot anyway, for precisely the reason you describe. I'm hoping that they'll have a more dramatic impact in B&W. There's really not much you can do with a cafeteria full of people sitting at tables, eating and watching you...

Kerry, glad you got to learn from this shoot. Maybe there'll be a next time where you'll get to perfect the lessons learnt and perhaps less hostility if the patrons are used to your presence.

Underlying lesson from this we can all take away is fluorescent lighting sucks for photography. I've noticed this with 1D mk2 and D2X under our office lights too - so take comfort that better equipment might not have made a difference. For the inconsistent colour shifts, you could select a shutter speed in multiples of the 50/60hz that the electricity in your country is provided in, but the realities of that often makes it near impossible.

Onyx wrote:Kerry, glad you got to learn from this shoot. Maybe there'll be a next time where you'll get to perfect the lessons learnt and perhaps less hostility if the patrons are used to your presence.

That's the sad part. I don't expect less hostility, ever. The racial polarization, in this city, is as bad as anywhere I've ever been. Only the young children and a few "adults" didn't seem to be so rigid in that regard. I'm accustomed to this in my work, but I didn't expect it to be so pronounced in this place. But, perhaps I can figure out a better approach for the next time.

Underlying lesson from this we can all take away is fluorescent lighting sucks for photography. I've noticed this with 1D mk2 and D2X under our office lights too - so take comfort that better equipment might not have made a difference. For the inconsistent colour shifts, you could select a shutter speed in multiples of the 50/60hz that the electricity in your country is provided in, but the realities of that often makes it near impossible.

That's not good news. I've been reading on the d2x, which is supposed to have a very good auto WB. Well, I'll be shooting the next one in raw, so it won't be a big deal for WB and contrast. IIRC, I can pick a good WB shot and apply it to all of the shots as a preset. Dunno. Never had to do that before. I've always avoided shooting indoors...

Sad about the racism in Detroit... I didn't think it was so prevalent.

KerryPierce wrote:IIRC, I can pick a good WB shot and apply it to all of the shots as a preset. Dunno. Never had to do that before. I've always avoided shooting indoors...

Well, sadly you can't apply to ALL shots. The trouble is - the output of light from fluorescent tube is varying in the colour spectrum depending on the precise moment the shutter is open. I did continuous burst shots at 8/8.5FPS on the D2X and 1D2 and the frames are like red/green/red/green tinted. Not precisely, but there is a systematic 'cycle' of colour shifts that makes life difficult. I guess the easiest is if you included something neutral grey or white in each frame you shoot (highly impractical), as you could then colour correct based on that.

Onyx wrote:Sad about the racism in Detroit... I didn't think it was so prevalent.

Yes, it's very sad, IMO, and it seems to be getting worse as time passes, instead of better, thanks in large part, to the policies of the gov't...

Well, sadly you can't apply to ALL shots. The trouble is - the output of light from fluorescent tube is varying in the colour spectrum depending on the precise moment the shutter is open. I did continuous burst shots at 8/8.5FPS on the D2X and 1D2 and the frames are like red/green/red/green tinted. Not precisely, but there is a systematic 'cycle' of colour shifts that makes life difficult.

I'd seen that at the dog show, which had a different kind of lighting, perhaps mercury vapor. Dunno, but the color casts were much weaker and with less variation. Too bad the batch process wouldn't work... But, it's not a huge deal, just extra post processing.