DSLRUsers.com

Generally speaking! do all members on this board knowing/ using or require the non encryption WB for your daily photography hobby?
And how many member see this issues is critical for your daily work?

Jump ship, I haven't worked out the SB800 yet, I would at least like to work that out before I jump ship

No way - even if this happens there will be a hack and I can always use NC

Hehehehe! whoever want to jumpship PM me for a free "transit" ticket and I have a new venture with license to buy second hand gears.

I gave two seconds thought to jumping ship to Hasselblad, but then i saw how much they cost.

Please PM me as well, if anyone wants to sell their gear.

I'm not jumping anywhere, but I think a thread like this virtually confirms that Nikon shouldn't bother with unencryping as it seems the end users don't mind if they take that approach.

That's a little disappointing.

I don't like what Nikon is trying to do there, but it's not such a major issue to me that I'd jump ship... Plus I'd expect widespread hacking would eventually make Nikon reconsider thsi WB encryption.

Link.

I'm not worrying about this, methods will emerge soon enough to get around the problem.

Cheers

I probably won't jump, but I would have chosen otherwise had I known about this before I went Nikon. it's plain and simple the wrong thing to do.

Just purely out of interest, how much is the current going rate for a D70 with kit lens, 70-300g and SB-800?

Intersting thing - Phil was mentioning about ACR 3.1 not reading D70s files. So he must have aversion of CS2 as that is the only version of PS with ACR 3.1. We are talking about getting screwed. Look at 350XT users - according to this article they will not be able to be serviced with ACR2.4 and PS CS - they have to convert to DNG with 3.1 and then open that up in PS - I think that suxs heaps more than what is happening to us.

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-6466-7729

I think we can only wait and see what happens in the end and hope the big corporations will force Nikon to reconsider.

Considering the market dominance that Photoshop has in the pro and amateur photography world I would imagine that Nikon will eventually see sense over this issue (let's hope so).

Rusty W. Griswald wrote:Just purely out of interest, how much is the current going rate for a D70 with kit lens, 70-300g and SB-800?

As much as someone is willing to pay for it

Soulboy wrote:I think we can only wait and see what happens in the end and hope the big corporations will force Nikon to reconsider. .

Soulboy,
Sorry, I don't get this point, why big corporations will force Nikon to reconsider?
I think Nikon's owners will make Nikon to think and change their strategy or do someting else to comfort Nikon users.

I just hate it when they do things like that and I would not mind a Kodak pro slr/n for what I do. As a matter of principle I might jump if I were to upgrade now. The pictures we take do not belong to Nikon!
Cheers,
Gerard

glamy wrote:I just hate it when they do things like that and I would not mind a Kodak pro slr/n for what I do. As a matter of principle I might jump if I were to upgrade now. The pictures we take do not belong to Nikon!
Cheers,
Gerard

PM me if you leave the Nikon System and I'll resell your gears to you same as welcome you back when you return to Nikon ship, the other ships might be heading to that direction too if Nikon choose to stick with its strategies and won

I would no have to sell anything as everything works the same!
Gerard

glamy wrote:I would no have to sell anything as everything works the same!
Gerard

Gerard,
When you jump ship, means you switch to Canon or Milnolta, etc.. do Nikon gears work in these systems?

Edit: Sorry, Kodak is the same or similar with Nikon ship and they will be heading that way if they see the benefits which Nikon earned.

As I said, I would go the Kodak Pro slr/n way . It is full frame,14mega pixels and takes Nikon lenses. Maybe not as versatile as a D2x, but not bad. I always think it'd be nice to have both...
Gerard

Missed the end of your previous post...

glamy wrote:As I said, I would go the Kodak Pro slr/n way . It is full frame,14mega pixels and takes Nikon lenses. Maybe not as versatile as a D2x, but not bad. I always think it'd be nice to have both...
Gerard

Gerard,
You haven't read my EDIT section, and I'll welcome you back to Nikon ship one day near if you switch.

I'd keep the D70 just to go to the mini-meets and enjoy the company and the food! That is someting I would miss...
Cheers,
Gerard

glamy wrote:I'd keep the D70 just to go to the mini-meets and enjoy the company and the food! That is someting I would miss...
Cheers,
Gerard

Thanks for that but please don't forget the Cassoulet! The ladies are waiting for it

Working on it!
Gerard

Birddog114 wrote:Generally speaking! do all members on this board knowing/ using or require the non encryption WB for your daily photography hobby?
And how many member see this issues is critical for your daily work?

At risk of being an arse, I'd suggest that the importance of this issue will vary significantly and depend a great deal on the amount of post processing one normally does and how many photos one will normally take.

For example, my shutter count is well over 32,000. On planned photo shoots, it's not at all unusual for me to take hundreds, perhaps more than 1,000 in a day. On some busy weekends, I've had more than 2,000 images.

So, workflow is very important to me, not just in post processing, but in simply viewing the images to select the keepers. Slogging through 500 images with Capture is painful because it's so slow and time consuming. Nikon View is about the same, with the addition of the fact that it's less stable and crashes. I use other applications to view the originals and cull out the losers.

I won't be able to do that if those programs can't read and display the proper white balance of the images. How can you review images that don't display properly? I already have issues with the d70 format that wouldn't or won't properly display ISO speeds and lens info in EXIF, depending on the application.

So that means I'm forced to buy and use Capture to review my images. That sux.... Then, I have to continue using Capture, to decode and export the files for final editing in other image editors. That adds another bunch of time and aggravation. I'd have to become intimately familiar with Capture, in order to extract the best image for export and only then would I be able to do the final edits in an editor that has far more features and ease of use than does Capture. Again, that's simply a ton of wasted time and effort doing something that I already despise doing.

All of my editing is generally done in a single program, usually PSP9, which reads d70 NEF files without much of an issue. I also use PS CS and ACR, which does a better job with NEFs than PSP, as a general rule. I prefer to use PSP, because I'm very famililar with it and can accomplish my needs very quickly. If I stay with Nikon, I can envision doubling my time spent on editing, because of this stupid issue.

Many people are suggesting that Adobe is trying to force Nikon into using the DNG format. Perhaps that is so, but it's not really material. There are a ton of other applications that won't work with Nikon's new encrypted files either. That is the issue, as far as I'm concerned. A user should be able to use the program of his choice, for viewing and editing his photos.

There are standards for images, for white balance and other stuff. Compliance with those standards would in no way hamper Nikon's ability to retain their proprietary NEF format. Nikon doesn't have to accept Adobe's DNG format or anything else. They can retain independence by conforming to the appropriate standards for image display and conversion, without losing the proprietary nature of their NEF files, which would not impose hardship on their user base.

If Nikon wants to make more money by selling Capture, they need to make it competitive with the other editing/viewing programs. I bought the camera to make photos. They should not be able to hold my photos hostage until I pay more money to view and edit them.

As far as I understand it, this only applies for me, on a D70, if I upgrade the firmware... which I wasn't planning on doing anyway.

I'm still not sure, though, if it would make much of a difference if it were encrypted regardless.

There's no way Nikon would stop Adobe from being able to RAW Process the files as it currently can. It would be shooting themselves in the foot.

Birddog114 wrote:

Soulboy wrote:I think we can only wait and see what happens in the end and hope the big corporations will force Nikon to reconsider. .

Soulboy,
Sorry, I don't get this point, why big corporations will force Nikon to reconsider?
I think Nikon's owners will make Nikon to think and change their strategy or do someting else to comfort Nikon users.

I'm not ignoring the importance of Nikon's user base Birddog, but as I see it, it's important for a company like Adobe to make the case for continued support of Nikon's cameras.

I'd imagine that those who have spent considerable amounts of money on high end Nikon gear would be more likely to drop Photoshop and just settle for Capture than switch to an alternative camera manufacturer.

Nikon is stalling or continuing the stupidity. Here's their latest support document, dated today, on the support site for Europe.

http://nikoneurope-en.custhelp.com/cgi- ... 1113994230

Basically, it boils down to the fact that they provide Nikon View and Capture and can't understand why anyone would want to use anything else.

Of course, they don't address the known issues with capture.

Kerry,
Well said and got your points but do you think you can make Nikon change their strategies with your rant or jump ship?

Like some other sites, in the past two years, prior to the release of the D2 series and D70, ton of people bashed and flamed Nikon for their slowly release new DSLR or full frame DSLR to compete with their competitor, do you think Nikon listens to all of those guys?

Each Corporation has their own strategies same as R&D and other "smart guys", they know how to mind their own business and they're getting rich more and more.

The first time MS launched their new strategies of controlling their software and licensing system, yes I heard a big and loud word :" JUMP SHIP" from many big guys around, but by the end of the day, those guys are the first people to join in line with MS in their new licensing system, Now Adobe Systems and others follow Microsoft's way.

The only answer is: Jump ship or stay is depend on each user's decision, don't you think another camp will follow Nikon's way, if Nikon get on well with this?
I'm staying with Nikon camp and with Nikon system which I have, am happy! I don't think there's much change in my way of doing photography as my hobby.
I'm relaxing and not giving the rant to anyone, cos everything will settle down and I got what I want in the way I wish.

EDIT:
This is my work flow and I'm always using NC prior to PP in other software if needed:

I shoot only NEF, do all of my initial adjustments in NC, including WB, exposure, color etc. I then send it to Photoshop via the plug-in if I want to resize/crop. IMHO, Nikon Capture for NEF, Photoshop for JPEG.

Nnnnsic wrote:As far as I understand it, this only applies for me, on a D70, if I upgrade the firmware

That's only a fear that we have; it's not been confirmed, nor denied, by anyone as yet.

But here's a different perspective: this alters the availaof functionality on the D2x and D2Hs, and under Australian legislation, there's a requirement imposed upon sellers to disclose stuff like this. Maxwell need to instruct - formally - all resellers that raw is crippled in the cameras, and unless customers with affected cameras use the appropriate software, they will not be able to access all of the facilities that shooting in RAW promises them.

That said, NV is a free DL, and as long as it supports the encrypted format, I see this as an undesirable outcome, but certainly not one that will be a deal breaker.

gstark wrote:

Nnnnsic wrote:As far as I understand it, this only applies for me, on a D70, if I upgrade the firmware

That's only a fear that we have; it's not been confirmed, nor denied, by anyone as yet.

But here's a different perspective: this alters the availaof functionality on the D2x and D2Hs, and under Australian legislation, there's a requirement imposed upon sellers to disclose stuff like this. Maxwell need to instruct - formally - all resellers that raw is crippled in the cameras, and unless customers with affected cameras use the appropriate software, they will not be able to access all of the facilities that shooting in RAW promises them.

That said, NV is a free DL, and as long as it supports the encrypted format, I see this as an undesirable outcome, but certainly not one that will be a deal breaker.

Gary,
Hehehehe!
My thoughts are our D70Users.com is under the same roof of Maxwell Optical Industries Pty Ltd (April 1st fools) and we already got the messages from Maxwell:lol:
That why we are D70Users.net now Do we need to change the wording on our banners and logo for strap?

The only reason we're currently D70users.net was so that we could make the transition to the new hosts and upload the data despite the site being down.

D70Users.com should also (now) direct you to this same site, and I can probably update the references in the database back to the .com address now.

Are we all that unhappy with our D70's that we need to look to update or upgrade them ?

I agree that this banter about Nikon and their WB encryption does not bode well for their loyal supporters, but unless we are all planning to rush out and buy the D70S, D2X or whatever will be affected (which is still under much conjecture), why should the average D70 user care ?

It's extremely unlikely that Nikon will ever produce a firmware update for the D70 that will give us "everything" we want, so our cameras work fine now (with no WB encryption added).

With Adobe being the leader in their field, they will no doubt push hard to make DNG standard (like jpeg is for the net). I think we all need to remember that Nikon supporters buy Nikon, Canon supporters buy Canon, etc, etc......but MOST of these people "all use Photoshop" in one version or another. Nikon may hold (as an example), 20% of the market share, but Adobe would hold much more than that. Who do you think would be more influential ? If all the manufacturers think Adobe's DNG is worth following, we'll all see it happen in a short space of time.

Us, as users, will need to either accept this and fall into line in order to upgrade.....or stay with what we have and complain about it until we give in and upgrade anyway !

Just my thoughts......

Hi Aussie Dave, I think the reason for the concern is that most people view their camera body as closer to a computer lifecycle than a film camera lifecycle so realise an upgrade to ones camera body is inevitable. I personally think this will be resolved somewhere in the middle. Adobe is unlikely to win as Canon have already rejected their format as being too restrictive and not allowing for new Canon developments. Barring mobile phones, Canon is the largest producer of digital cameras in the world. I sincerely hope Nikon do not win with this strategy, and don't think they will due to a)the outcry at the moment b)pros will not like to be told what to buy c) cracks will appear everywhere which will force us all to become software pirates.

The next few months will prove interesting by Nikon, how to back down without losing face. I can see a new feature in the next firmware upgrade, "new, unencrypted white balance".

Birddog114 wrote:Kerry,
Well said and got your points but do you think you can make Nikon change their strategies with your rant or jump ship?

Hi Birddie,

No, I'm not foolish enough to think that Nikon cares about me. I do think that adding my complaint to others has helped to get their attention and that our combined effort might have an impact. Time will tell.

Like some other sites, in the past two years, prior to the release of the D2 series and D70, ton of people bashed and flamed Nikon for their slowly release new DSLR or full frame DSLR to compete with their competitor, do you think Nikon listens to all of those guys?

First, this issue is nothing like those complaints. We're not talking about physical aspects of any camera. It's a firmware issue that can be easily changed. Indeed, it will be interesting to see if the firmware upgrade for the d70 contains this encryption. I'd be willing to bet that it was in there yesterday. I will happily be the guinea pig for the group, when it's released. I want to see if I can detect a change in AF and if the encryption is there, I'll see how much hassle it will entail for me. I can always go back to earlier firmware if necessary.

Regardless, on the specific issue at hand, the fact that Nikon Europe put up that new WB support paper today, surely means that this is a worldwide issue where users are unhappy and that Nikon is aware of that unhappiness.

With regard to the complaints you talk about, it's kinda like the poll numbers at the start of this thread. The numbers are meaningless in the overall scheme of things, when you don't have access to the overall numbers. Personally, I think Nikon has listened to those voices, at least when it comes down to the sales figures. I think the d70 and d2x are Nikon's response to those complaints. I also think the d100 replacement will be another killer camera, as another response to those complaints. They need not have a FF dslr, if they release one just as good, like they did with the d2x. But, surely the releases of the d70, d70s, d2hs, d2x all within a year's time frame means that they heard the complaints about the slow release of new dslrs. This would be especially meaningful if a d100 replacement is also announced this year.

IIRC, Thom Hogan said that Nikon has had more new announcements in the last year than at any time in their history. Why would they do that, if they paid no attention to the competition and perceived user demand?

The first time MS launched their new strategies of controlling their software and licensing system, yes I heard a big and loud word :" JUMP SHIP" from many big guys around, but by the end of the day, those guys are the first people to join in line with MS in their new licensing system, Now Adobe Systems and others follow Microsoft's way.

Not the same thing. MS has a stranglehold, a monopoly for all practical purposes, on the desktop PC industry. Nikon does not have such a position.

The only answer is: Jump ship or stay is depend on each user's decision, don't you think another camp will follow Nikon's way, if Nikon get on well with this?

Others will follow, if they see money to be made. OTOH, the others could use that as one more "feature" that makes them better than Nikon.

I'm staying with Nikon camp and with Nikon system which I have, am happy! I don't think there's much change in my way of doing photography as my hobby.
I'm relaxing and not giving the rant to anyone, cos everything will settle down and I got what I want in the way I wish.

I have no desire to change anything at this point and that includes my workflow. Truth be told, I'm still excited about the possibilities of the d2x and d100 replacement. It will be interesting to see how this stuff turns out. I like my d70 and if I weren't looking to invest a lot more money in new bodies and lenses, this issue prolly wouldn't be as irritating. In the end, it may not matter. I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face. I'll do my part to try to influence Nikon's decision and will decide what to do when the results are in.

Hi Glen
I agree with your comments. It is sad that these items become expendible so quickly.

And it will be intersting to see if Nikon try to turn this around and use something like an "uncrypted WB setting" as a "new feature".

Still, my D70 works a treat right now.....so I'm leaving it alone and just being happy taking photos....

What is interesting then is that "EVERYONE" seems to be shooting RAW. I haven't heard one person say, Oh well I shoot in JPEG so I don't really care at all. Or maybe it has just touched a "RAW" nerve.

I believe that the data capturerd by the camera belongs to the photographer and Nikon have no claim as to who may or may not have access to it. They will get a lot of negative reactions to this and Nikon customers will become very wary of new products before they purchase them. Furthermore, this will encourage users to obtain pirated copys of Nikons software. Nikon should remain aware of the fact the Canon also make very good cameras.

maybe in the future, Nikon will make us pay to use their RAW/NEF format ?? A totally encrypted NEF file that only proprietry Nikon Software could read ? Now that really would give us all something to talk about....

And maybe we'd need an activation key to use our cameras as well ???

Kerry,
The way Nikon release their new DSLR is the cycle of the business which they're engaged in these days, yes, they do listen to users but they have their ways in doing their businesses and I don't think they will or never ever fullfill their commitments with the user's demands and always users want more than they need, of course I'm.

Yes, I read Thom Hogan's predictable of the Nikon in 2005, but, it's just a forcast or guessing as we did, nothing in concrete.

Nikon is not stupid or foolish to hold this one in their hands for life, and we don't know what's next Everyone just try to discomfort themselves about NEF + RAW and Encryption. Nikon has number of people are working on this issue and I believe there will be a such of solutions.

And here are more of my observations about Adobe and Nikon:
Adobe has an agenda...
Adobe wants to be the digital processing King. (did you happen to see the MM buyout?) Adobe wants to force it's "standard" on everyone.
Nikon (and Canon) want to be free to develop their own software. (and the sell that software).
There are quite a few problems for us in all of this, some have been touched on before, and some not.
1) DNG as a standard COULD hinder the development of future digital cameras. Adobe is know to not play well with others on file formats. (PDF and Postscript are good samples). Adobe likes to use it's standard first, and then let others play.
2) The RAW format, with tweaks by any manufacturer, will present problems in the future. Imagine, 20 years from now. Will your software open that special Nikon RAW file format?... Don't count on it.

3) If everyone adopted DNG, It would not surprise me if in 10 years suddenly Adobe tried to charge for it. (Remember the lawsuits over the gif format?)

4) If I were a camera manufacturer, I would do everything I could to make sure I wasn't dependent on Adobe for software to work with my cameras. I'd want to be able to sell my own software. Adobe wants to be the ONLY software out there.

We are just the pawns in a corporate power play. They're looking to make money, and none of them are looking out for us.

Adobe is really trying to play some games here. Nikon, in a poor way, is trying to protect itself.

I'm sure things will open up after a while. Neither really wants to loose sales, but they want control... of us.

Easy solution to this problem, start shooting with film again..

Does anyone know what license (if any) actually covers the .dng format? I've not found anything on Adobe's site that relates to its conditions of use.

Birddog makes a good point about Adobe deciding to charge for its use 10 years down the road. However if the .dng format was licensed under the GPL, it wouldn't be possible to do this under law.

Saying that, I'm no legal buff so don't quote me on that but I think that's the correct interpretation.

Birdy,

You seem to have an interesting take on this.

If the WB is encrypted and no one has the legal right to unencrypt it then no other software company (not just Adobe) could legaly intrupret the WB .... leaving Nikon with the only means to PP raw files effectivley. So who is trying to be the only one out there? Adobe or Nikon? It seems to me - and I don't pretend to understand the underlying politics in these companies - that Nikon is trying to make there software the only one that can legaly work with raw files.

Have I missed something?

The first time MS launched their new strategies of controlling their software and licensing system, yes I heard a big and loud word :" JUMP SHIP" from many big guys around, but by the end of the day, those guys are the first people to join in line with MS in their new licensing system, Now Adobe Systems and others follow Microsoft's way.

I Jumped ship when that happened...
And now 70% or people when they start with our department use open source OS. And the whole German public service is aparently using Red Hat Linux enterprise

All these people jumping ship has caused an accelaration in Linux development (particularly in the area of window managers) and open source solutions are starting to look like viable alternatives to closed source, limit lease licenenced software.

Birddog114 wrote:Kerry,
The way Nikon release their new DSLR is the cycle of the business which they're engaged in these days, yes, they do listen to users but they have their ways in doing their businesses and I don't think they will or never ever fullfill their commitments with the user's demands and always users want more than they need, of course I'm.

Yes, I read Thom Hogan's predictable of the Nikon in 2005, but, it's just a forcast or guessing as we did, nothing in concrete.

Nikon is not stupid or foolish to hold this one in their hands for life, and we don't know what's next Everyone just try to discomfort themselves about NEF + RAW and Encryption. Nikon has number of people are working on this issue and I believe there will be a such of solutions.

And here are more of my observations about Adobe and Nikon:
Adobe has an agenda...
Adobe wants to be the digital processing King. (did you happen to see the MM buyout?) Adobe wants to force it's "standard" on everyone.
Nikon (and Canon) want to be free to develop their own software. (and the sell that software).
There are quite a few problems for us in all of this, some have been touched on before, and some not.
1) DNG as a standard COULD hinder the development of future digital cameras. Adobe is know to not play well with others on file formats. (PDF and Postscript are good samples). Adobe likes to use it's standard first, and then let others play.
2) The RAW format, with tweaks by any manufacturer, will present problems in the future. Imagine, 20 years from now. Will your software open that special Nikon RAW file format?... Don't count on it.

3) If everyone adopted DNG, It would not surprise me if in 10 years suddenly Adobe tried to charge for it. (Remember the lawsuits over the gif format?)

4) If I were a camera manufacturer, I would do everything I could to make sure I wasn't dependent on Adobe for software to work with my cameras. I'd want to be able to sell my own software. Adobe wants to be the ONLY software out there.

We are just the pawns in a corporate power play. They're looking to make money, and none of them are looking out for us.

Adobe is really trying to play some games here. Nikon, in a poor way, is trying to protect itself.

I'm sure things will open up after a while. Neither really wants to loose sales, but they want control... of us.

All we need now is for Microsoft to buy Adobe and we could soon all have new cameras running on a windows platform. Encrypted WB will soon look appealing in lieu of program errors...

"your Nikon camera has performed an illegal operation and will lose every photo you've taken on the memory card inserted, then shut down"

But think of the internet access you'll have on your camera. We can be logged onto this forum while we're taking the shot....????

Of course, I am jumping a little into the future.....

Aussie Dave,
I love those Can I have a back-order with you and pre-paid

Adobe is one company that does listen to its program users.

The buggy Acrobat 4 for pre-press was fixed but Adobe wanted to charge for the bug fix (Acrobat 4.05) but they reversed that decision when users objected.

A consortium of pre-press companies released a standard named PDF/X-1 in 1998 which Adobe has followed up (if not slowly) to a situation today whereby most print companies have no problem in using pdf’s for high res printing.

Aussie save, i think you have a crystal ball, you will probably be proved to be spot on

In fact from memory when they cracked the d rebel wasn't it found to be DOS based?

Glen wrote:Aussie save, i think you have a crystal ball, you will probably be proved to be spot on

In fact from memory when they cracked the d rebel wasn't it found to be DOS based?

It works as a great fisheye lens....but it's got encryption built in, so only I can view the photos.....sorry

Knowing Bill Gates, his fingers are in the pie somewhere along the line. Perhaps it's a DOS based encryption Nikon are using ?? At least there's a good chance it was written on a MS OS PC....