DSLRUsers.com

How do i convince someone to buy a D70s over a Canon 20D

1. She is a Girl
2. Want's a DSLR
3. Committed to learning how to use one
4. Knows next to nothing about technical side
5. Almost convinced the Canon 20D is the right camera for her
6. Can get the canon 20D with a lens for around AU$1500 at Duty Free

I suggested the Nikon D70s with the Kit lens


canon 20D specs here:
http://www.dirtcheapcameras.com.au/store/product.asp?idProduct=396

wendellt wrote:How do i convince someone to buy a D70s over a Canon 20D

1. She is a Girl
2. Want's a DSLR
3. Committed to learning how to use one
4. Knows next to nothing about technical side
5. Almost convinced the Canon 20D is the right camera for her
6. Can get the canon 20D with a lens for around AU$1500 at Duty Free

I suggested the Nikon D70s with the Kit lens


canon 20D specs here:
http://www.dirtcheapcameras.com.au/store/product.asp?idProduct=396

1. Good
2. Exactly what you want
3. Come to the mini meet
4. Welcome to Absolute Beginner Section.
5. Take her out on a walk and show her the D70Users
6. What's Duty Free? does it exist?

Good proposal to her from the first minute.

Tell her the $600 bucks she saves buying a D70s can go towards a better lens and other goodies.

but if money is not object well what can you say....show her Some D70s pictures and the range of lens that can used with it

Can I suggest - do not convince anyone. If she won't like it you'll be a blamed person

Ok, here're the questions:
- What lens come with the Canon 20D? Important is the lens.
- What's actually price of the D20 with that lens?
Take off 10% GST, then it's price of ex-GST for traveler/ tourist.
No such of duty import on camera or photography gears.
Don't be get caught in the trap by other resellers.

O.k this is the thing

1. Minimeet is not an option - too far away, if she buys i will have to buy it for her through you birdy
2. I have looked at the 20D it looks impressive i am nearly convinced that it's a better camera
3. It is cheaper and does 8megapixels

I need solid evidence that the D70s with Kit Lens is a better long term buy

the only big thing the D70s has going for her is the fact it's a Nikon andthere will be alot of support form me and the D70users forum, but to a novice camera buyer 'support' is a hard thing to peddle, she only sees $price.

help people, we need another Nikon Girl on this forum!

Tell her to go to Ted's or Fletcher's and try them out.

It's kind of pointless comparing technical specs against the two bodies because they each have their good points and some points are better than the others.

But overall, she's going to be the one that will have to learn to use it and enjoy the feel of the camera, and if she doesn't, she's wasted her money anyway.

"Birddog114" Ok, here're the questions:
- What lens come with the Canon 20D? Important is the lens.

18-55mm not good for her, she needs medium telephoto and versatility

- What's actually price of the D20 with that lens?

duty free $1500 with that 18-55 lens - SURPRISINGLY GOOD VALUE!

Take off 10% GST, then it's price of ex-GST for traveler/ tourist.
- She is a corporate, she likes the retail experience, will be hard to convince her to buy without a tax invoice just to save a few bucks

No such of duty import on camera or photography gears.
Don't be get caught in the trap by other resellers.

Money and tech aside
She is passionate about 'The image' and i just want to get her on the right track.

wendellt wrote:Money and tech aside
She is passionate about 'The image' and i just want to get her on the right track.

Tell her she can share lenses with you.

The image is irrelevant. It'll be good from both cameras.

Hard to convince someone to opt Nikon over Canon IMHO.
Both have plus and minus and after all you'll see plenty of professional Canon users the world over same as Nikon... more than happy.

The real question is why she is certain that the Canon 20D is right for her.
Unless she already has some investment in glass and or particular system knowledge , I think it is almost a toss of the coin decision. The only other factor is whether the intended use might sway the decision... i.e. if she needs mirror lockup then its the 20D over the D70... if fast flash-sych is useful then its the D70 over the 20D... etc etc etc etc.

Thanks people

your all right
it's her choice both cameras are on par

She is going to Teds and fletchers tonight.

wendellt wrote:"Birddog114" Ok, here're the questions:
- What lens come with the Canon 20D? Important is the lens.

18-55mm not good for her, she needs medium telephoto and versatility

- What's actually price of the D20 with that lens?

duty free $1500 with that 18-55 lens - SURPRISINGLY GOOD VALUE!

Take off 10% GST, then it's price of ex-GST for traveler/ tourist.
- She is a corporate, she likes the retail experience, will be hard to convince her to buy without a tax invoice just to save a few bucks

No such of duty import on camera or photography gears.
Don't be get caught in the trap by other resellers.

Money and tech aside
She is passionate about 'The image' and i just want to get her on the right track.

Wendell,
You don't quite understand what I said:

Take 10% off that means: the price is always has to be GST inclusive, take off 10% then you'll know the real price.
In this case the camera costs: $1650.00 - $150.00 = $1500.00.

OK, listen! NO DUTY IMPORT ON PHOTOGRAPHICS GEARS. So the portion of paid GST is the portion for people who's going to travel O/S to claim back at the TRS counter, and they have to pay full price at the retailer with TAX Invoice, no matter what! The stores can't sell her without GST, if it's then it has to be in a sealed bag and can't be open prior to leave Australia at the International Airport after the Immigration Procedures.

A TAX INVOICE is an Invoice with GST Including.

wendellt wrote:I need solid evidence that the D70s with Kit Lens is a better long term buy

Then you have a real problem; will the D70s be a better, over the longer term, buy than a 20D?

In all honesty, they're both very capable cameras.

Kit lens ... the correct kit lens for the 20D is not the POS that comes with the 350; it's much closer in terms of capabilities to the 18-70 that comes with the D70, and thus this is a much more level playing field.

The 8MP is a minor issue; yes, it's nicer, but at the end of the day, it doesn't make too much difference, and especially if she's not going to be printing massive enlargements.

Which camera feels better in her hands? The 20D feels too light and small to me, but for a lady, that may well be a major selling point.

Support from the forum will apply regardless of whether she's using a Nikon or a Canon, but if she's a close friend, the possibility of borrowing from your lens collection - were she to buy a Nikon - might be a factor she may wish to consider.

Either way, she'll be buying into a system, and both systems are very extensive, and capable of very high quality results. There's no way that she can make a wrong decision here ....

Boy, oh boy,

With all due respect to the epithet in the banner of this website, since when was a camera marque a valid motivation for such rampant evangelism?

Canon? Nikon? Holden? Ford? Coca Cola? Pepsi? Hardly life shattering choices to make. If the argument were over the D70s vs the 350D then I would say that build quality may come into the equation but to my eye there are no such qualms with the 20D and (correct me if I am wrong) I do think that the 20D has greater white balance control available on it. And I do hear a lot in favour of the CMOS chip and Digic.

For the beginner, depending upon the level of their interest and dedication, embarking on a pursuit of photography can lead to a wonderful voyage of discovery and camera brand, size, medium or body colour has only the most peripheral of effects on the journey.

Can Bird Dog supply this lady irrespective of whether it is Canon or Nikon (I am too new to be sure)? Will her experiences and results be any different one way or the other ..... or is it largely a matter of conformity for the gushy gooey bonding of common experience?

I am sure the inhabitants of the Canon Corral will welcome her and give her a cosy spot by the fire to warm her through her first winter with a DSLR should she choose that path. Likewise I dare say that she might kick her heels up with the Nikon folk if that is her choice.

Despite all of the foregoing, if she chooses the 'C'-word path she will certainly be paying premium prices for any decent glass.

Cheers,

wendellt wrote:duty free $1500 with that 18-55 lens - SURPRISINGLY GOOD VALUE!

She does not want to get the 18-55 lens. That is not the correct kit lens for the 20D, although Canon now seem to be marketing the 20D with this lens as well.

The correct lens for the 20D is the 17-85 EF-S, as per this kit.

gstark wrote:

wendellt wrote:duty free $1500 with that 18-55 lens - SURPRISINGLY GOOD VALUE!

She does not want to get the 18-55 lens. That is not the correct kit lens for the 20D, although Canon now seem to be marketing the 20D with this lens as well.

The correct lens for the 20D is the 17-85 EF-S, as per this kit.

That's how people got caught! the real kit lens with the 20D is more expensive.

Sheetshooter wrote:Canon? Nikon? Holden? Ford? Coca Cola? Pepsi? Hardly life shattering choices to make. If the argument were over the D70s vs the 350D then I would say that build quality may come into the equation but to my eye there are no such qualms with the 20D

Exactly. Both are very capable and respectable tools, and away from the hype and emotions, it comes down to which camera works best in one's hands.

And that's a decision that only the prospective purchaser can make.

Can Bird Dog supply this lady irrespective of whether it is Canon or Nikon

Not at this time. At least not through Australian sourced hardware.

I am sure the inhabitants of the Canon Corral will welcome her and give her a cosy spot by the fire to warm her through her first winter with a DSLR should she choose that path. Likewise I dare say that she might kick her heels up with the Nikon folk if that is her choice.

Precisely.

Given criterium #1, I should think it will depend entirely on the colour. With perhaps the slightest nod to style.

Why convince anybody of anything? I get asked for my advice or opinion on lots of things (I don't know why either), and I'm happy to give it. But having given my view (which does not come with a guarantee) it is all over. I might be wrong. However, I choose not to debate a requested opinion.

Honestly, I'd be extremely surprised if she can get a 20D + EF-S 18-55 for $1500. Body-only from Dirt Cheap Cameras would be $1930 with TRS or body + EF-S 18-55 $2085 with TRS. Sure it's not a 350D kit at that price? If she can indeed get the 20D with 18-55 for $1500 I'd go for it!

MCWB wrote:Honestly, I'd be extremely surprised if she can get a 20D + EF-S 18-55 for $1500. Body-only from Dirt Cheap Cameras would be $1930 or body + EF-S 18-55 $2085. Sure it's not a 350D kit at that price? If she can indeed get the 20D with 18-55 for $1500 I'd go for it!

That was my thought also! look to me that price is cheaper than the D50 + kit lens in comparison with specs. in both cameras.

If yes! then what's wrong with Canon?

Hi wendellt,

You mentioned that the lense supplied in the D20 "package" was not suitable for her anyway.... so I guess a comparison is difficult until she can identify a specific lense range (or ideally, lense itself) that IS suitable for her needs (be it either in C or N).

Whatever she chooses, as others have also said, it will be difficult to go wrong with either the Nikon or the Canon route. Both have some very good cameras.

Just as something to throw into the option pool (although feeling a little bad that I am not promoting a Birddog special!), I wonder if this would come anywhere near to fitting her requirements.... I notice that B&H has a "coming soon" option of the D70s with 18-70mm DX Zoom and 55-200 DX Zoom lenses for USD1449.95 (plus postage, of course).... It's a *bit* more than the AUD1500 price originally mentioned (by today's xe.com rate, that would be AUD1910-ish), but the lense combo might be good for her... ?? Just a thought. Not sure how soon B&H's "soon" is, either....

Link here

Cheers

Edits: Grrrrrr typos

MCWB,
I think Wendell and her got lured in by other mobs, who're wanting to get rid of the stock of the 350.
It's such a life! ECS will go bankrupt if they sell at that price!

cyanide wrote:Just as something to throw into the option pool (although feeling a little bad that I am not promoting a Birddog special!), I wonder if this would come anywhere near to fitting her requirements.... I notice that B&H has a "coming soon" option of the D70s with 18-70mm DX Zoom and 55-200 DX Zoom lenses for USD1449.95 (plus postage, of course).... It's a *bit* more than the AUD1500 price originally mentioned (by today's xe.com rate, that would be AYD1910-ish), but the lense combo might be good for her... ?? Just a thought. Not sure how soon B&H's "soon" is, either....

Link here

Cheers

With that price you can buy a Nikon D70s + 18-70 + Nikkor 70-300G right here in Australia with local Maxwell stock, why should you buy from B&H and pay GST +shipping + Customs Charges at the end

Very true. On page one I typed a reply suggesting that exact option but my computer didn't seem to want to submit post and I lost it. (I was too lazy to retype ). Only just noticed the B&H other special so wondered if it would be also suitable.

Edit: Just to note that the "coming soon" 55-200 is ED.... my "expertise" (and I use the phrase loosely) is not sufficient to decree whether that is significantly better or not..... on the downside, it is f/4-5.6...

Sheetshooter wrote:Despite all of the foregoing, if she chooses the 'C'-word path she will certainly be paying premium prices for any decent glass.

Why's that?

cyanide wrote:Edit: Just to note that the "coming soon" 55-200 is ED.... my "expertise" (and I use the phrase loosely) is not sufficient to decree whether that is significantly better or not..... on the downside, it is f/4-5.6...

I've tried it, if I have an option then I'll go for the 70-300G instead of.
Or the combination of 18-70/ 70-300

petal666 wrote:

Sheetshooter wrote:Despite all of the foregoing, if she chooses the 'C'-word path she will certainly be paying premium prices for any decent glass.

Why's that?

petal666,

Are those Canon lenses expensive?

petal666 wrote:

Sheetshooter wrote:Despite all of the foregoing, if she chooses the 'C'-word path she will certainly be paying premium prices for any decent glass.

Why's that?

Well Petal,

I recently investigated prime lenses for both Nikon and Canon and with rare exceptions the canons were a hundred or two hundred dearer than the Nikon equivalents. And that was not including 'L' series lenses as I recall.

An example being the Nikon 50mm 1.4 locally listed at $520.00 and the Canon at $749.00.

I don't do zooms so I can't comment in that regard without further investigation.

Cheers,

Has she considered the D50? Its a perfect size and weight for the ladies and quite easy to use though it still retains all the functionality of the D70. She may like the popularity of the SD cards as well.

Sorry, I don't know much about the 20D, but the D70s is a great camera, just a little complex for a beginner.

The D50 isn't quite as powerful as the D70s and therefore wouldn't be put up against the 20D.

informer wrote:... the D70s is a great camera, just a little complex for a beginner.

This is something I regularly hear but find quite curious.... the D70/D70s has a fully Automatic setting, as well as the Program mode for those who actually know when they want to avoid using flash.... Yes, it has more complex settings that might need to be "worked up to" by a beginner, but is there anything actually WRONG with someone getting a camera that is a little out of their range/abilities?? (*particularly* if their aim is to broaden/expand their skills?). Surely someone who is not interested in developing their skills (no matter how slowly) wouldn't be considering an SLR... and if they were a total beginner but had no concept of where to start (apart from the "I will need an SLR" idea) then Auto mode would surely suffice??

I know that's certainly what I was thinking when I bought my D70... I was (read: am) a total amateur, but didn't want to be limited by the *equipment* I had (yet at the same time realised that I didn't need a D2X!!!)

No real contribution to the convo - sorry - just a comment.

Cheers

To fly a fighter jet is more complicate than a car but people do it!
So the D70 is not more than a toy for a child at 15 YO. Give one to him and he'll find out which mode is the best.

Sheetshooter wrote:Well Petal,

I recently investigated prime lenses for both Nikon and Canon and with rare exceptions the canons were a hundred or two hundred dearer than the Nikon equivalents. And that was not including 'L' series lenses as I recall.

An example being the Nikon 50mm 1.4 locally listed at $520.00 and the Canon at $749.00.

Come on, compare prices from the same place

Nikon 50f1.4 $618 http://www.dirtcheapcameras.com.au/store/product.asp?idProduct=117
Canon 50f1.4 $628 http://www.dirtcheapcameras.com.au/store/product.asp?idProduct=62

Nikon 180f2.8 + some case $1749 http://www.dirtcheapcameras.com.au/store/product.asp?idProduct=103
Canon 200f2.8 $1472 http://www.dirtcheapcameras.com.au/store/product.asp?idProduct=40

Nikon 24f2.8 $822 http://www.dirtcheapcameras.com.au/store/product.asp?idProduct=108
Canon 24f2.8 $719 http://www.dirtcheapcameras.com.au/store/product.asp?idProduct=45

If you look somewhere else the Nikon lenses might be slightly cheaper than the Canon ones. Overall the lens system will cost you about the same.

petal666 wrote:

Sheetshooter wrote:Well Petal,

I recently investigated prime lenses for both Nikon and Canon and with rare exceptions the canons were a hundred or two hundred dearer than the Nikon equivalents. And that was not including 'L' series lenses as I recall.

An example being the Nikon 50mm 1.4 locally listed at $520.00 and the Canon at $749.00.

Come on, compare prices from the same place

Nikon 50f1.4 $618 http://www.dirtcheapcameras.com.au/store/product.asp?idProduct=117
Canon 50f1.4 $628 http://www.dirtcheapcameras.com.au/store/product.asp?idProduct=62

Nikon 180f2.8 + some case $1749 http://www.dirtcheapcameras.com.au/store/product.asp?idProduct=103
Canon 200f2.8 $1472 http://www.dirtcheapcameras.com.au/store/product.asp?idProduct=40

Nikon 24f2.8 $822 http://www.dirtcheapcameras.com.au/store/product.asp?idProduct=108
Canon 24f2.8 $719 http://www.dirtcheapcameras.com.au/store/product.asp?idProduct=45

If you look somewhere else the Nikon lenses might be slightly cheaper than the Canon ones. Overall the lens system will cost you about the same.

Petal666,
I jump ship! any more space?

Petal, a little hard when comparing from smaller places in Aus as often shops here align themselves one way or the other to acheive quantity discounts, sometimes whilst not declaring those allegiences. Others are either a Canon or Nikon shop.

ECS a known Nikon shop, for instance has the 50 1.4 for $520. On this board you can get it for $400. I don't know too much about dirt cheap except that it A) isn't dirt cheap and B) has an average rep. If we compare prices at a store large enough to buy well on all brands the difference is less conclusive.

At B&H

50mm 1.4

C $309.95
N $269.95

180 or 200 2.8

C $659.95
N $679.95

24 2.8

C $289.95
N $299.95

Petal,

Sorry, I have never heard of 'Dirt Cheap Cameras'. Why would I pay them $618.00 for a Nikon 50mm 1:1.4 lens which I could buy elsewhere in Sydney brand new for just $520.00?

Various dealers cut differing deals with distributors and prices will vary brand to brand and merchant to merchant. My sources for prices were European Camera Specialists for Nikon and Baltronics for Canon. Neither knew of my approach to the other and were not attempting to undercut each other.

If the Wendell's associate decides to go with Nikon I think I know at least on place where she should shop and one where she probably shouldn't.

Cheers,

I knew I shouldn't have put prices in, now everybody is going to say they can get it cheaper elsewhere, what I was demonstrating was that you can't say that Nikon lenses are always going to be cheaper than Canon, they're not. Overall they are around the same price for equivalent lenses.

Petal, is dirt cheap one of the cheaper suppliers for Canon glass?
Streetshooter, it seems we have the same opinion of retailing in Aus.

Glen wrote:Petal, is dirt cheap one of the cheaper suppliers for Canon glass?
Streetshooter, it seems we have the same opinion of retailing in Aus.

Not by any means, it was just the first online shop I went to to show that the lens prices are comparable.

A fairer comparison would be to find the cheapest price for each of those lenses, then compare it. Leg/finger work will be involved here.

Back to the REAL topic, Wendell while it would be great to have your friend get a Nikon probably based on your own great experience with Nikons, ultimately it is still up to her choice and what suits her the best. There are always pros and cons to such issues and as someone mentioned, tell her to go try out each camera at a camera shop. When I say try, I mean really try to work it (ie. menu systems, ergonomics, is it too heavy, is it too light, etc).

That's the only real way to decide. I mean D70s and 20D from what i've seen have bugger all difference. If you're talking D2x and 20D or 1D and D70 then it's not a comparo.

PiroStitch wrote: Leg/finger work will be involved here.

or http://www.staticice.com.au

Its neato and i like it. Think of it as Froogle for AU.

Cheers,

Luke.

StaticIce is really made for computer parts, not cameras.

The people who tout cameras will usually NOT have that impressive a range of prices for either brand.

Well, I had a play with a mates new 350D the other day.
Impressions were:
* dont like setting things on the camera - menu hell!
* its AF in low light with kit lens is faster than D70 with kit lens
* it doesnt under-expose flash pics using the built-in flash the same as the D70 seems to. This was based on a straight turn the flash on, not setting up the camera. I was (and still am) incredibly disappointed with the built-in flashpix of the D70 at night, unless I mess around to get it into TTL mode, rather than BTTL. This might be poor technique, but the c*n*n still gave a better outofthebox flash portrait of someones head.
* pics 'pop' more out of the camera
* the c*n*n doesnt feel right in my hands, but better than they used to feel
* basically, out of the box, it took better pics than my D70 did. Both this playaround and when i first got my D70 were inside, at night. Main diff between his house and mine is that my walls are mainly white, whereas his are oranges and blues.

The D70 v's 20D argument. There is one difference which noone has touched on, but does depend on intended usage. The 20D has a 5fps motor drive, so would be a definite plus for someone who is sports orientated.

Other than that, girls generally seem to like Canon's more for some reason. I dont know why, maybe Nikon's are intuitive for the way men think but not women?
Get her to actually use both of them and see which she prefers. And remind her that she wont be able to share lenses with you if she treds down the dark path

robboh wrote:*
Other than that, girls generally seem to like Canon's more for some reason. I dont know why, maybe Nikon's are intuitive for the way men think but not women?

So, Canon for: girl/ gals/ women/ inverted men?
And Nikon for: boy/ guy/ men/ inverted women.

Birddy, Robboh, glad I have the blokes camera

Glen wrote:Birddy, Robboh, glad I have the blokes camera

me too! with proper men's clothing

Birddog114 wrote:

Glen wrote:Birddy, Robboh, glad I have the blokes camera

me too! with proper men's clothing

You're all a bunch of nutters
I take it 'inverted women' is so Mic doesnt feel left out

Hi guys

my associate Catherine decided to go with Nikon. Her decision revolved around total cost of ownership Nikon being more bang for buck than canon in the long run. She intends to buy a few long lenses.
She also misinterpreted the duty free price for the canon 20D
She thought the 20D cost $1500 where in fact the salesperson was showing her the 350D.

Unfortunately she is adamant about buying the D70s from a retail source.
but later she may be interested in purchasing lenses from the one and only birddog.

Tell her to shop around then, if she's really that keen on buying from retail.

Salespeople will have no problems with ripping her off... they do it all the time.