the loop explained and hopefully buried once and for all

[jethro]

to all here that may be somewhat interested or offended in my so called double speak! and talk of the loop
D70 is a great forum. times have changed, i must say for the better, membership has grown to over 1000 registered members. some people may see me as an idiot or nark, some may see merit in my ramble, but be assured im no nutcase i say what i feel and observe. this forum to all intent has grown and blossomed into a very creditable web based forum which involves a vast diversity of persons and their own personal and diversified opinions and experiences on a vast level of their own life experiences. to be a creditable person here you have to take a hit if you make a personal statement. i take my hat off to the newer members on this forum, dont think that you image posts will be bagged, on the contrary submit them for your own benefit and learning as there are many pro photographers here willing to help you along the way. life today is about taking personal critisism most people will shy away for fear of the unknown or ridicule. if every person said what they honestly felt or wish that could happen in their own lives, wouldn't life be more simple than the fear of the unknown or the guilt feeling that someone has ostersized them behind their back because they have spilled their guts to their own version of something they believe is true or creditable . isnt life about not being conceited to a degree that you have to confide in someone elses opinion to back your own ideas and creativity up . be an individual if most people in this world spoke what they thought a hell of a lot of us would have no issues because we would be content with what we have spoken, bullshit or not
i have been personally beaten up for my opinions on this forum which to me is water of a ducks back. i may be deep in opinion but thats me, people speak your mind say what you feel you wont die wondering. i must say to the generous administrators of this magnificent forum who obvisiously dont understand my whims and ways and double speak GO FOWARD forget the loop. You have set up a forum which has blossomed and now has a very diverse and loyal group of constituents. i forgot i was an early member of D70 forum i think i came in around the 116 mark as a subscriber and im still here maybe if had posted more i could have been a MOD. thats a scary thing to consider i may have been in the loop . no offence to to all. my honest beef is to get things on the road, this forum has changed its face to a bigger audience and if it takes a personal beating for my opinions so be it. bring it on. people will always offer opinions im gulty of that, take them on board divulge, and see if its what you believe. it has taken a week to divulge what i have seen as genuine critisism and im pleased to say i have not been affected by any. i must say gary you have given it to me, after all this is your site and may be deservedly so but maybe you shouldn't quote so much. these comments are off my own batt with no quotes. i say what i feel without someone elses quotes. finally and please bury this post if you see the need to, the loop has incited many a different view and i thought it has confused a lot of people. this forum is in a strange way is family to a lot of people it is a genuine outlet for ones owns desires and aspirations.
if you have a beef say it for gods sake dont hold back. life is too short for bullshit. im not scared if you have something to say i have wanted to bury this for a week i wanted to suck in what everyone's thoughts were.

the person outside the loop .
and with a genuine opinion be it critisied or whatever
jethro

[stubbsy]

Jethro

This whole loop in or out thing is now just as confusing for me as it was at the start. I figure you've explained this here and I may just be too dumb to get it (highly likely), but I still don't get it. ARe you saying the loop is the mods, or the regular Sydney members or ????

Please be succinct and use crayon drawings if necessary to explain it. I can take it too

[johndec]

Jethro,

I had to read your post a couple of times to get the gist of the point you were trying to make, but I get the feeling that you consider there are two classes of members here: The "IN" crowd (the loop) and the "OUT" crowd (which you consider yourself part of).

I'm sorry but nothing could be further from the truth... There are some members here that participate more heavily than others, both online and through personal contact (minimeets,etc), that however doesn't make their opinions or views more important than anyone elses. By the same token there are interstate and overseas members that are a valuable part of our community, although they don't enjoy the same geographic advantages that you do.

You, as a Sydney based member have an opportunity to participate in the full range of activities available to members of this forum and perhaps even take the opportunity to present yourself to other members in a face to face situation that would help them understand you better as well as you understand them better. Have you ever come to a mini meet? Are you involved in any way in this weekends AW activities? If not, you really only have yourself to blame if you are misunderstood.

This forum is unique in that it allows not only a wide range of views and opinions, but also the personal contact and exchange of ideas that no other online group can approach. There are 70 people coming to dinner on Saturday night, many from interstate and all for a common cause. I've already made many friends via this forum and after Saturday night I'll have new friends in places like VIC and SA.

However you won't because you won't be there and that is your loss. Come and meet people, shake their hands and learn from them and maybe then you will change your opinion.

John.

[informer]

Thanks for the heads up.

I think only 3 people reviewed my last effort and was actually hoping someone would photoshop my pictures to show me how they would be able to improve them.

In my language, having no comment is the same as saying that its crap but I don't want to say it to your face.

I guess I'll have to try, try try again or bump, bump and bump it to the top

[digitor]

Punctuation is a wonderful thing. I find that using it (or at least making a decent attempt at it) gives a statement a lot more credibility.

Cheers

[Matt. K]

Jethro
You speak for all of us and we are humbled by your elequence. Every forum needs a sherrif to shoot the bad guys in the ass. Good shot!

[JordanP]

Jethro,

Just curious. Am I IN or OUT? or just blissfully ignorant?

[informer]

Jethro

This whole loop in or out thing is now just as confusing for me as it was at the start. I figure you've explained this here and I may just be too dumb to get it (highly likely), but I still don't get it. ARe you saying the loop is the mods, or the regular Sydney members or ????

Please be succinct and use crayon drawings if necessary to explain it. I can take it too

You wanted it, you got it!

[informer]

Jethro
You speak for all of us and we are humbled by your elequence. Every forum needs a sherrif to shoot the bad guys in the ass. Good shot!

Liverpool, now is that in England?

[thaddeus]

If I ever win a challenge, I will suggest the next challenge topic be "The Loop"!

[MCWB]

You wanted it, you got it!

 ROFL!  BTW, I'm with you on the beer.

[Troppo]

I have no idea what you guys are takin about but i am definitely a Mod C

[Greg B]

jethro jethro jethro.

There is a place for stream of consciousness, and there
is a place for grammatical convention.

You may have something interesting to say, I don't know.

Because it hurts my brain to try and read it.

It is wildly ironic, seeing this, as I recall some earlier threads where
I raised issues concerning spelling and punctuation. It was all greeted
with good humour - Greg B is at it again etc. Well, we are not laughing now!

We have some people for whom English is not their first language.
Given that I only have one language and could not begin to converse in
any other language, I believe that considerable latitude needs to be given
to those posters.

However, your savage assault on the well established conventions
of spelling, punctuation, capitalisation and the use of paragraphs
is a stark reminder of why those conventions exist.

They exist because, without them, we are left with text that is
difficult to read, difficult to comprehend, and ultimately fails in
the only use it has - to convey something to the reader.

I realise that the funky disregard for grammatical convention has been
adopted and embraced by people since the fifties and sixties. I was
a part of that too. But mercifully, experience has shown us that a
message will have much more chance of achieving something
if it is clear, readable and unambiguous. With respect, your message
fails on all counts.

Whether you have a valid point is completely lost.

[marcus]

In my language, having no comment is the same as saying that its crap but I don't want to say it to your face.

Informer........I agree, your comment should have been included in my "What The?" thread. Unfortunately it is now locked (by a Mod, and probably one who's in the so called "loop" )

ps Love your illustration, Very Funny I think my icon would be the chap named Informer too

[dooda]

So I think that people who speak their mind is not in the loop, and people who agree blindly is in the loop, therefore people who vote pictures into the POTW pool that aren't thought of as good pictures are...not...in...the...loop?

Wait I'm confused...let me try this one more time...

If I was in the loop, and I liked a picture that everyone hated, and stated my mind about it, I'm not in the loop. Jethro stated his mind is not in the loop, because he stated his mind.

Greg B Liked a picture that not many understood, therefore he...is...in...the...loop?

Wait, let's try this one more time.

[gstark]

In my language, having no comment is the same as saying that its crap but I don't want to say it to your face.

I believe that if one has nothing to say on a particular topic, the nothing is an entirely appropriate response.

By way of contrast, you are suggesting that everybody must say something, whether or not they may have a worthwhile point of view on the topic. I'm sorry, but that seems to me to be a rather aggressive approach, and one more akin to that of my ex-wife's mother, who seems to be of the belief that if she stops talking, her mouth and jaw will sieze up forever.

[informer]

Marcus, I didn't see that thread but I think we're on the same page.

Funny how comments like this :

"...if you don't want a crituqe, then don't post the bloody image: it's a critques section, and any and every image is open to be critiqued. "

doesn't always work. Anyway, it could be a case of "if you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" kind of thing, I dunno. Some people may think why should I scratch his back if he doesn't know how to scratch my back. So in the end we've got groups that are scratching each others' backs, long distance back scratchers and me scratching my own back.

Ps. I'm a recovering alcoholic but I still like beer

[Oneputt]

GregB well said. I tried to read the post but gave up as the lack of punctuation and capital letters in the appropriate places, was all too much for me.

[genji]

In my language, having no comment is the same as saying that its crap but I don't want to say it to your face.

informer

yes that may be true in a japanese forum, but you are in an aussie forum therefore, you have to take the view of aussies.

[informer]

But but but... I am an Aussie!

[genji]

But but but... I am an Aussie!

then i certainly dont understand what your earlier quote mean??

In my language, having no comment is the same as saying that its crap but I don't want to say it to your face.

in my pauline hansen voice 'please explain'?

[the foto fanatic]

Hi jethro
I read your post a couple of times. I can't claim to fully inderstand it, but I think I catch your drift.

I saw elements of honesty, humour and self-deprecation. I saw an intent to say what you think, regardless of the consequences. I saw what I took to be genuine praise of the forum and its members.

One of the problems with electronic communication is that we miss so much of the non-verbal cues we rely on when we interact face-to-face. I wonder, if some of your posts had been uttered in conversation (say at a mini-meet or AW function!), whether there would have been as much difficulty with them.

[gstark]

You wanted it, you got it!

A couple of minor detail points, if I may.

There were a large number of non-mods who stated that they understood and liked the image in question.

There was also a fair proportion of members who might be claimed to be in the "loop" who plainly stated that they didn't understand or like the image, but they respected and accepted the choice. Where are they represented?

And you've failed to include the two admins ....

Jethro,

The reason I quoted your comments is because you've done an almighty backflip worthy of our dearly beloved PM. On the one hand you call the PotW process a wank, and then you go and support it. Perhaps there's a subliminal message for us in that pair of facts, but I don't permit flaming on this forum, and I should really respect the rules that I set.

More significantly, or perhaps less so, I still haven't got a clue about what the actual message is that you're trying to convey to us. Clearly several others are experiencing a similar problem, and the absence of punctuation in your message, as highlighted by Greg and digitor, certainly doesn't help matters at all.

But the one thing that I think it is fair to surmise by now is that my first thoughts, and those of others, when you first raised the concept of some sort of "loop" - an in-crowd, if you will - was basically on the mark.

Let me say this now, and I'll say it once, and once only.

There is no such loop. There is no in-crowd. I find your statement suggesting this to be quite offensive, and not in any way acceptable.

The facts of the matter are that people here get involved to whatever degree they wish. That is fair and reasonable, and those who make a greater effort will be more visible, and in many ways that is the case.

Some come to minimeets, or zoo excursions, or meet for coffee or dinner. Others do not. That is a fact of life, and as I have said, it's up to each individual to set their own level of participation.

I note with true regret that your level of participation only goes as far as participation on these forums. That is fine, and it is your choice that makes this so.

But you have no right whatsoever to complain when others appear to be more involved than you are, when in fact that is exactly the case: they are more involved. What in the world do you expect?

Getting back to the "loop", your statements suggest favouritism, yet you present no evidence of this. Again, I find your comments in this regard offensive and unacceptable.

If you have hard evidence that favouritism plays a hand in the selection of the PotW, then please present it now.

Otherwise, I believe that your public apology for this most offensive statement should be forthcoming with no further delay.

[gstark]

Marcus, I didn't see that thread but I think we're on the same page.

Funny how comments like this :

"...if you don't want a crituqe, then don't post the bloody image: it's a critques section, and any and every image is open to be critiqued. "

doesn't always work.

How so?

The statement implies that every post made within that section is done so in order that it be open to critique.

It in no way guarantees one.

What's the problem with that, given that we cannot compell people to make postings of any sort?

You might not like the situation, but that's the best that we're going to have here. If you don't like it, fine, move on.

[gstark]

So I think that people who speak their mind is not in the loop, and people who agree blindly is in the loop, therefore people who vote pictures into the POTW pool that aren't thought of as good pictures are...not...in...the...loop?

Wait I'm confused...let me try this one more time...

If I was in the loop, and I liked a picture that everyone hated, and stated my mind about it, I'm not in the loop. Jethro stated his mind is not in the loop, because he stated his mind.

Greg B Liked a picture that not many understood, therefore he...is...in...the...loop?

Wait, let's try this one more time.

Dave,

Well put.

By Jethro's own statements, this week he must be in the "loop", but last week he wasn't.

[stubbsy]

I am sick to death of this whole debate. Let's just get over it and move on.

No more new posts on the topic, no cross posts, snide digs and remarks - nothing - zip - nada. Let's get back to doing what we're here for. Taking pics and sharing them with each other. Coming up a whole bunch of us are getting together for a few days to celebrate our shared joy in photography. I am looking forward to meeting people - friends and strangers - and having a good time discussing PHOTOGRAPHY with them.

[informer]

You wanted it, you got it!

A couple of minor detail points, if I may.

There were a large number of non-mods who stated that they understood and liked the image in question.

There was also a fair proportion of members who might be claimed to be in the "loop" who plainly stated that they didn't understand or like the image, but they respected and accepted the choice. Where are they represented?

And you've failed to include the two admins ....

OK that's fine. I have the say that some of the comments factored in the OP's reputation or previous efforts which probably helped in justifying the photo in question. Some people even had the time to write a long review about it. Great.
But I agree with Stubbsy. I don't want to go on and on about this anymore. I've never criticised it, and like everybody else I've credited it for being different. However, I could imagine how some people might not feel that its worthy of PotW, and there were a sizable amount in that particular thread (more so than any other threads).

It was controversial piece so lets leave it at that. I'm sure nnnnmic (?) has better pictures up his sleeves as the best is yet to come.

Ps. The fact that you brought it up again in this week's PotW probably didn't help.

[stubbsy]

Informer

Just a little point. I didn't like Leigh's POTW, but for me that doesn't mean it's not worthy of being a POTW. Who am I to judge worthiness. It's all in the eye of the beholder.

[informer]

Stubbsy, I'm aware of that.

And I think that's Jethro's line

[Geoff]

I am sick to death of this whole debate. Let's just get over it and move on.

No more new posts on the topic, no cross posts, snide digs and remarks - nothing - zip - nada. Let's get back to doing what we're here for. Taking pics and sharing them with each other. Coming up a whole bunch of us are getting together for a few days to celebrate our shared joy in photography. I am looking forward to meeting people - friends and strangers - and having a good time discussing PHOTOGRAPHY with them.

What he said .

[MATT]

Well I dont know if im in or out or going around the loop,

but... I do feel welcome here. As I hope everyone does.



MATT

[Raydar]

Interesting!!!

Cheek your pm Jeffro!!

Cheers
Ray

[Nnnnsic]

I feel loopy... but my shrink says that's natural for someone who's as nuts as I am.

[Atorie]

Sooooo... What's the weather like today?.. Oh look at that there's a change in the topic!

[Aussie Dave]

I agree with Stubbsy. We're going around in circles here (pardon the pun).

Let's just look forward and concentrate on what where all passionate about...PHOTOGRAPHY !

Everyone that agrees with Jethro, your point has now been put forward !
Everyone that doesn't agree with Jethro, your point has been made !
TOPIC DISCUSSED
-end-

People, let's not make this the ending to a great year !

[Onyx]

So 'the loop' and all that just has to do with last week's choice of POTW?!

On the other hand, I did get the gist of jethro's first post. I guess I must be spending too much time online to understand a post devoid of punctuation. I agree with you. Personally, I prefer if people hated me due to what I think and say rather than the colour of my skin, how I look or something shallow.

[PlatinumWeaver]

I was hoping this thread was going to explain sydney's roadways and public transport..

Greg - I read your post and loved it. I may copy and paste it into a forum I know where punctuation, grammar and spelling are considered dirty and unclean.

Don't want to re-open anything that is closed, but shouldn't the PoTW is chosen by the mods/admin, right? Doesn't that mean the point of the exercise is for them to chose what they like? I don't see the problem with that unless not having a photo of yours chosen means you can't post here.. or go to a meet.. or whatever..

[gstark]

This thread is now closed.

No further resurrections of this or any related topics will be tolerated!


Reluctant comment follows:

Marcus, Jethro, please note this very carefully: if either of you attempt to resurrect this topic in any way, I will, reluctantly, ban you. I do not know what your motives are, but over the last ten days you have both been quite disruptive, and I simply do not appreciate that.

I have been very patient with you both, and I have been hopeful that I could be shown exactly what the point was that you were both trying to make.

I have asked Jethro for an explanation, and thus far, nothing comprehensible has been forthcoming. While you have used words from the English language, your syntax and grammar has been such that it was rendered as little more than tlhIngan.

You have, I believe, insulted a number of people whom I have grown to respect. I have asked you to apologise for those insults, but none has been forthcoming.

Your carping and whining have been a disruptive influence, and I have better things to with my time than try to figure out what the issue that you belive exists is: if you have not been able to clarify your meaning over a ten day period, then it would seem to me that the issue is within you, rather than elsewhere. My private inbox, and a number of public comments, seem to support this view.

This is not the Marcus and Jethro forum, and you are free to go and start your own if you wish.

There will be no further comment from either of you on this, or any related matter. None.

That is my final choice, and it is locked in.

And I will be very bloody angry should any other members try to restart this or ar related topic.

While I am very reluctant to ban any members, my patience has been worn out, and the warning is now issued.

I thank you all for your cooperation.