Digital Photography- value for money?

[rjlhughes]

How do you amortise the value of your photographic kit?

Have you ever stopped for a moment and thought about how much you've spent on all the gear that goes into your hobby?

How do you quantify the value you get out of it?

If you're a professional you probably charge the cost of your gear out at the current rental rate. A lot of the pros I know also charge out a capture rate (like the cost of film).

But if you're not selling pictures how do you judge the value?

When I was an amateur radio operator in the 80's I used to calculate the value of my gear at a $1 an hour. So If I bought a $200 handset I'd use it for 200 hours I felt I'd paid it off and could make my next purchase.

Obviously frames taken isn't an appropriate measure. Does anyone here take the same number of frames digitally as they would with film?

I doubt it, given the cost differential.

I can spend plenty of time on this forum, but that's not dependent on the gear that I have.

Some of the shots I like best on flickr are taken with point and shoot and processed through Picassa. I don't need all my gear to be on a par there.

Shots of children are priceless, of course, but does it justify the cost of the full to you? Or more to the point, probably, to your wife?

You can choose to spend your money on whatever you want, of course that's your business. But the question is how do you judge the value of top end gear used for fun?

[Glen]

Bob, great question. Unfortunately I don't fit into any of the above categories. One thing I noticed was when I first got my D70 I was hestitant to press the shutter because I was accustomed to film and associated cost. Got over that, went crazy, now appreciating slowing down. I think the greatest benefit of digital is that it allows me to experiment and grow as a photographer. In the past I would think nothing of using rolls of films in foreign locations, but would I take photos of the backyard or street? Never.

One of my disappointments with digital is that the bodies are expensive and consumable. In the past if you bought an F3 or F4 there was a piece of your kit you kept forever. Also if you had a lowly Nikon 301 you could load it with iso25 film and (assuming the same glass) get the same result as the guy next to you with the F4. A Rebel 300 cannot get the same result as 1Ds Mk11.

[gMaster]

I calculate the return on the amount of hour entertainment i get out of my investment.

I have plenty of hobbies, for different season and time of life, from xbox, to fishing to aquariums computers. It just once i grow out of one i will get into a new one, and the latest is photography.

With around $5k i've spend so far i would expect/hope to stick around with this hobby for atleast 3-5 years, and again with all Nikkor glasses, if i ever grow out of the hobby i can alway savage abit of the residue value. So say 2.5k over 3 years is a quite affordable entertainment budget for a hobby.

[digitor]

It's one of those things, isn't it.... Financially, I suspect most of us could not justify owning and running a motor vehicle. I certainly couldn't. The fish I catch must cost me about $1000 a kilogram, considering all the costs involved. Cameras likewise, the cost per shot is very high. I'd be much better off if I took taxis, bought fish, and used disposable cameras. There are certain intangible benefits to owning and using cars, boats and camera equipment though, how do you value those things? Unfortunately I don't fit into any of the listed categories either, but I try not to think about that!

Cheers

[leek]

Maybe that's the difference between a "pro" and an amateur...

I don't need to amortise the cost... I don't need to think of my photography in financial terms... Lucky me!!!

I also don't fit into any of the categories in the poll, so didn't vote...

[kipper]

Where's the < $10k, < $15k, < $30k, $100k poll option?

I'm sure sheetshooter probably fits into one of those
I know quite a few of us fit in the 10k and 15k.

[rjlhughes]

I'd be happy to add the extra poll options - I could only get it to give me three options. The fourth I tried to put on there was over $5000 - if anyone knows how to do it - please feel free.

[Glen]

Bob, done.

Just press 'add option".

[rjlhughes]

Thanks!


The other issue that really interests me is the opportunity cost of high end equipment.

Are you better off buying a great lens, or spending the same money on going somewhere to take shots?

A fairly ordinary prosumer lens is half the cost of a lap top, for example.

How much camera gear buys you a new kitchen, etc....


The question is about how you attempt to value (the perhaps intangible) worth of the photographs.

[Glen]

Bob, great thought provoking questions.

Unless one is selling their work I don't think photography gear can be measured in dollars and cents (though as stated above, bodies as consumables annoys me). I think the question is what price memories? I originally got more serious about photography when I put myself in a position where I worked for six months of a year and travelled for six. I was very grateful for that opportunity and what I learnt about myself, others and the world. The photos from that time remind me of so much I would be shattered to lose them. I have two tea chests full from that time!

More recently I have had three deaths of relatives and my brother lost someone close to him. At one funeral I was able to take photos of aunts and uncles I haven't seen for 35 years, those photos are dear to me. If my camera broke fifteen minutes before flying to that funeral would I have bought a kit to take those photos? In a heartbeat.

So as a tool to record elements of my life or people I rate it as invaluable. The photos I take for my own pleasure are nice as well, but people or memories are more important.




ps It was interesting at the wake after the aforementioned funeral when a few were taking snaps with p&s, I got a few looks as I was doing portraits with a 70-200 VR.

[LOZ]

Have you ever stopped for a moment and thought about how much you've spent on all the gear that goes into your hobby?

How do you quantify the value you get out of it?

Hope my wife dose not read this post.

I love fishing and it is all most impossible to quantify but when I just worked it out it costs me $1100 per kg of fish that I catch How do I quantify the value well I just like fresh fish .


LOZ

[rjlhughes]

Glenn,

that's exactly right about the priceless nature of memories. People change so much that it is wonderful to have the pictures to remind us.

On the other hand when my house burnt down all the photos and the books as well as my full professional Olympus 35 mm set up went.

Do I miss the photos - yes. Can I live without them, well I've had to.

Does digital mean that you can keep pictures more securely? Probably.

The question is about where the value lies in photography. Is it the product - the photographs? The process - making someone look great and changing their self image? Or is it in the cost of the gear? Especially whern it's compared to other things we can spend money on.....

[glamy]

Maybe I do overspend, but I am happy with the results (most of the time...). Since being equipped for photography, I hardly use the video camera (left to the wife), so next time I'll only buy a basic one instead of overspending on that as well.
I do realise how much I spend and the return is not quantifiable in money, but it is nice to own nice things, we live only once. As long as the wife is happy (very important!) and you're not wanting for food, holidays or other essentials, I think it's good to spend and enjoy.
Cheers,
Gerard

[wendellt]

[quote="rjlhughes"]How do you amortise the value of your photographic kit?

Have you ever stopped for a moment and thought about how much you've spent on all the gear that goes into your hobby?

Yes all the time, it makes me sick, I could of travelled the world twice over

How do you quantify the value you get out of it?

I think a good photo is worth a million bucks in my mind when i take a good picture i feel good and that's enough for me. Photography for me is just a hobby so at the moment I think the camera has paid itself off.

I don't take pictures for commercial purposes, but one day that might change if i go broke, also my boss expressed to me that he may change the business plan of my work to include a professional photographic service, but i don't feel too good about this unless he goes out and buys me a new camera for business use or subsides part of my camera investment in return.

If you're a professional you probably charge the cost of your gear out at the current rental rate. A lot of the pros I know also charge out a capture rate (like the cost of film).

I am not a professional

But if you're not selling pictures how do you judge the value?

It's like buying a car and adding bells and whistles to it, some people are passionate about adding bells and whistles to a car, most of their hard earned cash will go towards their passion, same with me, i bought an expensive camera so i can get the shot i like, if i don't make any money out of it i am fine with that because at least i get a kick ass portfolio, that can be used later to land me a comissioned job
I also got the camera so i get more credability photographing events, a D2X opens alot of doors even without a press pass or professional representation, i get into a few events by just waving around the camera, i think that process is fun!

[moggy]

I don't bother to work out what I've spent on my various hobbies because I get a lot of pleasure from them. As Gerard said, so long as you're not wanting for anything (with the exception of lens lust!) your bills are paid etc. then why not indulge yourself.

Bob.

[Glen]

Loz, I hope your wife doesn't read the post either

Bob, I think clearly the value doesn't lie in the equipment, I will use whatever is in front of me, though like most tradesmen prefer to have the most appropriate tool for the job. Like you, I believe there is quite some value in taking a shot which highlights the best features of an individual. In fact I bought 3 lenses just for that, the 70-200 2.8, 85 1.8 & 45P 2.8. I also believe the value is the end image.

Two side thoughts here. Digital is far easier to back up and far less likely you will lose your image, which is good after reading of your loss. Second thought is with regards to capturing images of individuals. When asked to do a portrait of an individual, I do my best to show them in their best light but when capturing candids I prefer to capture life as I saw it. The photo the other day of the gentleman sleeping on the bench was a case in point. I didn't enter the discussion as it was losing focus and objectivity by the time I saw it, but I thought it was a fair capture. The gentleman in question was not afraid to be seen in those clothes and sleeping. I personally did not think his clothes suited his body type but his choice to wear them. Also his choice to sleep in public. Ipso facto, his choice to be captured like that. eg I would not scratch my genitals in public unless I wished people to see me like that and of course potentially capture an image of me like that. I know many older succesful people who are very happy their day is free enough to enjoy a coffee, go fishing or lie on a park bench without the pressure of regulated work on them. To them that is the epitomy of success, time, not expensive cars or flash clothes. I think it was the viewers perception that this individual was travelling through hard times, probably not the subjects. The ubiquitous polyethylene bags spell vagrant to some, but viewing into them revealed a cardboard box similar to a DVD box, whilst the other seemed full of more bags, hardly the worldly possesions of a vagrant. I am sure we all could all regale each other with stories of misconceptions based on clothing. I believe the viewers made the choice to view the subject as disadvantaged, where the subject may not. He could quite easily be a moderately succesful retailer enjoying some down time. My daughter views me as disadvantaged with regard to dress sense every time I walk out the door, I do not. It is all about your point of reference and life experience (diversity, not short or long).

[rjlhughes]

Glen

the debate about the photo of the sleeping man has reopened in the image critiques section.

While I have a 'kind' camera, I think the ability to put honesty in our photographs is also really important.

Does your daughter say you should spend more on clothes and less on ....other things?

[Glen]

Bob, I have a kind camera for portraits but like honesty when photographing the world. I have some interesting shots of slums in Rio De Janeiro which I am glad they are the way they are, rather than looking like a bunch of twentysomethings frollicking at a garden party.

My daughter doesn't mention material choices as I have clothes she approves of, more the fact that I have no problem when purchasing products (especially building materials) as being perceived one step up from homeless. I know my own values and situation, I often do not feel the need to project that to the world. It is often to your disadvantage to project your personal situation to the world, which is why in Europe so many debadged cars are around, of course here it is the opposite.

A young girl doesn't see the world through an old mans eyes.

[rjlhughes]

Glen,

the comment about clothes was meant very lightly. At the moment I am wearing flanellette (2 patterns!)

understand exactly about debadging, and I took my point and shoot to a reunion last night knowing it would have a different effect on people than the bigger outfit.

I have also put this poll up on a couple of Flickr groups including a Canon users group.

Will be interested to compare the results.

[Glen]

Bob, I would genuinely not like to add up the cost of this hobby. Same thing when someone asked about how many lenses we all had, it would take me ten minutes to remember them all As I tell my wife, "It is probably at least a $1,000 worth of lenses"

[rjlhughes]

I'm laughing out loud - that's one of the genuinely funniest things I've read here.

[rjlhughes]

So far 100% of the Canon group on Flickr have reported spending between $2000 and $5000 on their gear.

Over half the respondents here have spent more than $5000.

[kipper]

So far 100% of the Canon group have reported spending between $2000 and $5000 on their gear.

Over half the respondents here have spent more than $5000.

Point being?

[rjlhughes]

I'm reporting the result....and encouraging more people here to take the poll.

Would certainly be interested in other people's thoughts ....especially on how you judge value.

If you have thoughts on other places and gear I can poll I'm happy to do that - this isn't intended as a Canon Nikon rivalry.

[kipper]

Sorry, I'm a bit lost. I thought when you meant Canon Group, you meant the Canon Coral?

[rjlhughes]

No kipper,

as I mentioned in a previous post in this thread I've put the same poll up in a couple of groups on Flickr.com including the Canon one.

I was reporting back on that.

It's too early to comment really, but it looks like Nikon people spend more than Canon people, which may be explained by the lower entry cost or other factors.

[kipper]

Oh and there we have it. That is what I was driving at.
It doesn't matter if you're using Nikon or Canon. Costs are still the same. The entry point dslr of the D50 is cheaper than the EOS-350 from what I've seen on websites.

I know plenty of guys on nature forums who have spent well over $40K on Canon gear. I don't think you can really make that assumption from the fact that the Canon people have only spent $2-5k on gear. I mean 1/4 of my costs is on a tripod setup, another 1/4 is on a top of the range zoom. Did any of the Canon guys you polled own a 70-200 F2.8 IS? Probably not going by the fact they've only spent $2-5k

[radar]

Hi Bob,

certainly, an interesting set of questions. I decided to get back to photography after a long break. Used 35mm in the 80, p&s after that till now.

Decided that I wanted a dslr for an upcoming trip. Then, I found this group. There is certainly the enjoyment factor of being able to "fiddle" with gear, trying new things, learning.

This forum certainly has given me the opportunity to meet some wonderful people. An extra benefit of my re-found "new" hobby. Value of this, priceless!!

I was on Stockton beach today with a number of other dslrusers members. We had a great time, hopefully also some good pictures to show, but now that is probably not quite as important . And what about that AW party, priceless!!

These forums also make us think, gets us out of our comfort zone, have great discussions, even when we just read them.

So I guess to make a long story short, I certainly feel that the money spent on my dslr was worth every penny.

Cheers,

Radar.

[rjlhughes]

Radar,

So a sense of community is important for you? And shared activity?

[radar]

Radar,

So a sense of community is important for you? And shared activity?

It wasn't initially, but it has become important. Just as I really enjoy the loneliness of being behind the lens, being out on my own in the sand dunes or the bush, to be able to share it is also now an important part of this hobby, for me anyway

Radar.

[rjlhughes]

And that's hard to value in dollar terms. It's also not buyable, except with time and effort.

I find that to take good pictures in nature I have to be alone and silent.

[radar]

I find that to take good pictures in nature I have to be alone and silent.

Very true

I'll have to go sit quietly in the backyard now to try to get a picture of that tawny frogmouth that has been "oum-oum-oumming" over the last few days.

Take care,

Radar.

[Aussie Dave]

very interesting topic. I'd be in the "less than $5000" bracket....but given free reign, I'd be +$5000 pretty quickly

Now, Value for money ? I guess it comes down to how much you value your hobby.

I used to Tenpin Bowl for 16 years, and I'd estimate I would have spent around $50 - 60K on the sport (playing several leagues a week plus tournaments). If I'd saved that money, I could now buy pretty much all the camera equipment I wanted to (or would know what to do with anyway).

Do I wish I'd saved the money.....NO.

Everyone needs a release.....and in my mind that release is priceless.

Is digital value for money ?? Digital is a completely different animal, compared to the good ol' SLR Film camera. With the initial purchase of camera, lenses, CF card and PC, one can shoot away until their heart is content and, as mentioned earlier, take photos of things that one would normally shy away from when using the film SLR. In saying this, the photographer is freed from being so cautious and can focus more on trying to get their technique right OR get that one great shot instead of looking at how many shots are left on the roll of film (and also subconsciously remembering all the used rolls awaiting development).

Does that feeling of freedom contribute to anyone's value for money ?? I know it does to mine !

In this day and age, technology moves so quick that everything we buy is an upgrade to something, which will also be upgraded 6 months into the future by the next best thing. The only value you can put on these items is how important they are to you.....because before too long, they are a throw-away item (anyone still have a 486 16Mhz PC - that they use ??)

We're all running the wrong way on a moving escalator, just to keep up. The moment we stop, we fall further and further behind.....

[rjlhughes]

Dave you raise a very good point about the perishability of the gear.

On the Canon Forum someone raised the question of the cost of the other gear.

They actually said:

"Plus fast enough computer, good monitor, enough RAM, Photoshop, etc. it keeps going up."

But I guess we justify that through the multiple uses we get out of the computer.

[kipper]

I already had a fast computer, 21inch monitor, lots of ram......years of playing computer games, and the constant need to have the fastest pc everytime they released a new wiz bang game that was on the bleeding edge of technology. So I didn't have that expense to worry about.

The reason why a lot here probably are +$5k here is because they're spoilt with good deals. Maybe the people here are more impulsive. I dunno the reasons for it. All I know is that the entry level of both fields are the same.

[rjlhughes]

Kipper,

so bargains can be an incentive to impulsively overspend?

this is also a very useful site for people interested in equipment.

[kipper]

Well they are with me When items lose a 1/3rd of their retail price they start to look more attractive.

[glamy]

For a lot of us not keen to buy on the internet, I think the easy access to good deals and good service helps push spending. I would also add the fact we can compare our gear with the better one during meets. I am sure I would not have spent $1600 on a 24-120 VR at Harv... but did not mind spending on a deal at less than half that price. All these deals add up... Try a D2x once and feel the effect!
Cheers,
Gerard

[stubbsy]

Bob

You always manage to stimulate interesting debate. Maybe one day I'll be lucky enought to have a "real" chat with you.

I have > 15K in gear so I'm one of the over 5K people by a little How do you place a $ value on pleasure. I never had a film camera because the $ cost of production was too much a barrier to entry for me. Digital - well I've spent considerably, but in return have quality gear that will in many cases outlast me. I think gMaster's comments earlier were spot on so I won't echo that here. I'd like to add though that my expen$ive hobby has seen me get out and about rather than sit at a computer all day, to revel in the beauty and wonderment of the world around me in a more acute way than I formerly did (I now see the world around me in a heightened way like a kaleidoscope of photographic moments) and then there's the cameraderie that flows from many hobbies and this place is a fantastic example - having spent the last day and a half with some others from the forum out taking sand dune pics etc.

Value for money - you bet - but it's all relative (my friends cringe when I tell them how much my BH-55 Pro head + Gitzo 1325 legs cost )

Would I spend the money again - in a heartbeat. My one regret is I bought a 70-300G lens when I got my D70 and very soon discovered it was unsuited to my photographic style and replaced it with a 70-200 VR. That's a damn good average.

[rjlhughes]

Peter,

you know, when I saw you'd posted I looked immediately at the poll before I looked at your post. It came as no surprise that we'd added a vote to the over $5k section.

The idea that a camera changes our way of seeing is one of my greatest reasons for having one in my hands. I get a huge kick out of the cameraderie (although mostly on the other site I'm active in).

Do I need the 350D? Well I can justify it for professional photos of clients. But I look at the point and shoot a95 often and wished I used it more.

My point being we don't have to get on the "arms race escalation of kit", I suppose.

And the value we get out of the amateur part of our photography doesn't necessarily relate to the money we spend on gear.

[rjlhughes]

So far from the main Flickr Canon group.


less than $2k 14%

less than $5k 72%

and more than $5k 14%

So it does look like this group is is willing to put more resources into their equipment. (Not statistically valid, of course!)

[birddog114]

As many above posts, I don't see any return of the cost of my gears in financially. why should I? If I do taking into account of those expenses then I never have a camera, nor a lens,

What will bring you happiness and all the funs without the hobbies?

The more gears I have the more fun coming up as many people have known, I'm happy with all my friends when I'm outing or get out at the week end and shoot until you drop like last Saturday evening after the sand dunes and sunset session. I love it and will do it again and again.

It's one of my hobbies, flying is also another my hobby and it cost more.

Hey look! what are you going to do if you have no hobby? and hobby always costs higher than you expected. That's fun! you'll never find it again and make sure you have to create it. Once I'm in the wooden box and go thru an oven, then I'm proud that I have all the funs while I was on this earth.

[Glen]

Bob, my one thought is on Flickr did you ask people to work in A$ or are we just mixing $A and US$. That could distort things a bit, also the relative prices between the two countries. Up until about eleven or so months ago it wasn't possible to buy a DSLR & lens for under $2k in Australia.

[kipper]

Thanh, do you get out flying much any more? If so, rotors or fixed wing?

[rjlhughes]

Glen,

I haven't been differentiating in the $ - I'll PM you the link. Although so far I'd say there's only one that looks like it'd be under $5k US and over $5k Australian, apart from the one that's definitely over 5k in AUD.

Did I mention it may not be statistically valid?

That would make it 14/58/28 which is still quite different to the result here.

But sample size may be a problem! <laughs>

Birdog you're right about you can't have fun with the gear when you're dead.

[birddog114]

Thanh, do you get out flying much any more? If so, rotors or fixed wing?

I have both endorsements but not taking off lately, need an IP to renew.

[Link]

I've bought my D70 while I was still a student and I had to wait for a second hand unit before I could afford it. Still, I found digital to be a tremendous value for money and, more importantly, for self-learning.

Value for money is a highly subjective topic. Being quite insentive to lens lust and permanent upgrading, I just have fun with what I have and that's not too expensive...

Also I like travelling and backpacking around, so I prefer my equipment (laptop + D70) to be relatively light and cheap; so if it's lost, it's not big drama (the photos themselves in the CF card or HDD would probably be more valuable to me!)

Link.

[gstark]

Thanh, do you get out flying much any more? If so, rotors or fixed wing?

I have both endorsements but not taking off lately, need an IP to renew.

192.168.0.10

[birddog114]

Thanh, do you get out flying much any more? If so, rotors or fixed wing?

I have both endorsements but not taking off lately, need an IP to renew.

192.168.0.10

[Sheetshooter]

Being quite insentive to lens lust and permanent upgrading, I just have fun with what I have and that's not too expensive...

Link.

Link,

So refreshing to hear that - like a breath of fresh air.

Good luck with the back-packing,