Just when you thought you were good

[wendellt]

Hi people

At Today's minimeet i borrowed Birddog's Tamrom 28-75mm to shot a fashion event, Thankyou Birddog again for your generosity. The lens is the most focal length i have handled and was convinced at f2.8 it could produce a sharp image of the subject from about 7 metres away.

I don't know if my results are form user error, but i think i'm pretty good with a camera, so i was baffled when i took this:


Taken 7 metres away 75mm f2.8 200/100, result is not from a slow shutterspeed or miss focus issue, I am convinced it's the wide aperture and the distance it was taken at

I think you only get the bokeh effect at f2.8 if your close to the subject like 2 metres away, the background being blured from that point on, am i right?

Anyone know how you can get a nice background blur when shooting subjects 10 metres or more with a zoom lens say 28-70 f2.8 and 70-200VR f2.8 two lenses which i may be getting.

I tried many different aperture settings during the parade ,most at widest aperture came out blury.

So i found that shooting at f5.6 was sweet, but i did not get any bokeh as a result, which i think is absolutely essential for me to be happy with the end result.


How do photogs get subjects in sports pics in sharp focus and the background blured when shot at very far distances?

Would the 80-400VR produce nice bokeh in the same circumsatnces at widest aperture i think being f5.6?

[Grev]

I think it's just Tamron. The Nikon 28-70 f2.8 doesn't look like THAT.

And for sharp subjects and blurred background, it's a result from a long tele lens, isn't it? Not really sure what you are trying to ask because I thought it was quite striaght forward...

[birddog114]

I think it's just Tamron. The Nikon 28-70 f2.8 doesn't look like THAT.

And for sharp subjects and blurred background, it's a result from a long tele lens, isn't it? Not really sure what you are trying to ask because I thought it was quite striaght forward...

The Nikkor 28-70 will produce the same sympton and results, at wide open, you hardly to achieve the nice bokeh as we spoke earlier yesterday morning.

Each lens on each camera always has its sweet spot, you have to play and experiment with it to find out your liking.

The Tamron 28-75 is not one of the legend, but it's the substitution of the Nikkor 28-70, for people who can't afford the Nikkor or would like to have its light, small, it can't beat the Nikkor but it still performs to the similar of the Nikkor.
To the 70-200VR and 80-400VR, distance is required if you want to achieve the nice bokeh, though fashion show or fashion parade, you are not lucky to have the distance to shoot in the crowd.

[Sheetshooter]

Wendell,

You are all over the place like a mad woman's poo here.

First let's get some points defined:

DIFFERENTIAL FOCUS is the effect of using a large aperutre to obtain shallow depth of field thereby presenting the focussed subject clearly delineated and all other content closer or further away in varying stages of blur depending on the distance.

BOKEH is the image quality of the out of focus elements in the picture. Bokeh is the product of several factors and various lens formulations render either more- or les-attractive Bokeh.

Here is an example of DIFFERENTIAL FOCUS shot at f/5.6 - that is as much as I can tell you, since BOKEH is a subjective thing and only each individual viewer can assess what they think of the BOKEH.



In your first shot the differential focus is inverted because the camera has back-focussed. Elements in the backgrond appear closer to being sharp than the foreground subject (which may or may not have been your intention).

Depth of Field is a function of magnification and as your range increases so the differences in magnification decreases and, along with that, the differences in optical resolution. Think about it for a moment - at infinity it is impossible to differentiate focus or scale between objects that may be a mile or more apart.

The lens to do what you are seeking here is something in the order of an AF-S VR Nikkor 200mm f/2 G IF-ED or an AF-S Nikkor 300mm or 400mm f/2.8 G IF-ED II. They would need to be used in tandem with lightening reflexes, an eagle eye and a big bank account.

What you have done here is, to my way of thinking, a possibility of both operator error and equipment malfunction with only minimal risk of it being based on the Tamron/Nikkor issue. It pays to remember that it is not so long ago that the sort of stuff you are aiming for here HAD to be done with manual focus (AF did not exist) and the same skills are required now as were required then because even with all the automation the machine can still only perform as it is directed.

Cheers,

[kipper]

I have to agree with Sheetshooter here on this one. It does look like the background has more focus than the foreground. It's something you're going to have to learn to master when photographing moving subjects. I know when shooting other kinds of birds, that if when panning on a subject that the focus moves off of the subject then it will start focussing on the background. I have tonnes of blurred shots because of this.

Out of interest what sort of focus mode were you using....AF-S or AF-C?


Sheetshooter, are the 105 and 135 DC range of lenses applicable for this sort of application? I know I looked at these lenses a while back and thought they'd be a nice to have lens. Not sure if they're the sort of lens that Wendel requires if he wants control over the amount of depth blurring, then again not sure if the lens would give the user that much control.


Wendell, go into Nikon Capture (I hope you're using this) and select the menu option to turn on the cameras focus point. It will hilight with a red box where the focus was for the shot.

[krpolak]

Wendellt,

Beside your problems with focusing and dof.

Where were you? I could not see you

Here is one shot by myself from this event. Done with manual 105/2.5. Mate, how tough is manual focusing in that kind of situation Though I am quite happy with results. I do not shoot fashion and action and in 5 minutes (I was there accidently) had to learn a lot



Regards,

K.Polak

[leek]

Wendell,

Your first shot just looks badly focussed to me... I don't think that it was a function of the lens or the aperture.

Nice shot Krystian...

[sirhc55]

An interesting point is that you can achieve a more traditional OOF with a FF sensor (as per 5D) than with a DX sensor. For reference check out http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/cmos/fullframe-e/blur.html.

Nice looking lady K, also nice pic.

[DionM]

Wendell,

I think you have got the background more in focus than the foreground? Just a simple case of wrong focus - maybe the camera got confused (it is a Nikon after all ) or maybe the wrong AF point locked on (the metal beam on the side looks more in focus).

[wendellt]

Sheetshooter you are right

I am all over the place I meant I wanted differential focus thankyou for saving me from my silly self

your example shows shallow depth of field which i know how to achieve at f5.6

but how do you calculate depth of field to render the background of the subject at changing distances, is it just a matter of pure skill and experience?

the last fashion event i was at i was in a , press box i calculated i was 1.5 metres away from the end of the catwalk so at f1.4 on a 50mm lens i knew i would get a nice image with a flushed background

I think i have backfocused using the Dynamic autofocus mode on the D2X, this focus mode has 5 crosshairs aligned in a cross.

Kipper i was using the Dynamic autofocus tracking mode AFS on the D2X I looked back in capture the first picture had no in focus points, the D2X was also set on C mode continous focus not single servo mode, so when the subject moved I lost the focus.

The pro photographer next to me was using an old nikkor 70-200mm f2.8 and he was getting nice background blurs

krpolak
Excellent capture you have achieved exactly what i wanted with your shot.
Glamour photography coud be one of your hidden talents.
When using the manual 105/2.5 was it set to f2.5? when you took that shot?
Manual focus and different focus is very hard in a fashion show, that's why models repeat the walk twice just in case the photographers miss the 'LOOK' shot, the lighting is also dynamic with ambient light and other flashes from photographers to contend with not to mention event staff getting in your way and dodging advances from the special guests, well done Krystian!

I was behind the DJ at the front, there were quite a few other guys with canon lenses that got in my way so i was constantly straffing left to right

Chris
I am not ready to go full frame sensor yet just to achieve out of focus backgrounds, but the example shown is gorgeous

I think it is safe to conclude that this was purely a backfocus user error because i used the 5 point dynamic focus tracking on the D2X in continous focus mode and not anticipating the characteristics of the tamron lens.

Thankyou people

All my shots have absolutely zero differential focus they all look 1:1 as if you were seeign it with your own eyes, as a result they are all useless to me. I am totally humbled now... I think i just got spoiled by the D2X i thought i could knowck this one on the head with a impressive body

my hat goes off to you kipper and all you other old skool photographers.

[kipper]

Btw, there is nothing wrong with the Tamron 28-75MM XR Di LD lens . While I don't have this lens, I've heard quite a few rate it as a top lens, and would prefer to have this on the end of their camera then some of the Nikons out there.

[krpolak]

Excellent capture you have achieved exactly what i wanted with your shot. Glamour photography coud be one of your hidden talents

Thanks Wendellt. Though I am not really at the moment into that kind of photography

I was behind the DJ at the front, there were quite a few other guys with canon lenses that got in my way so i was constantly straffing left to right

I could see only one guy with D2X and big alluminium case full of lenses. It has to be you.

Maybe it is worth to present other shots, so we could learn more contributing from more experienced guys generous comments. It could be kind of extra excersise since subject and event is the same and all could sits in one place. What do you think? It is your thread. Personally I would be happy to see others output and show mine.

Regards,

K.Polak

[wendellt]

Excellent capture you have achieved exactly what i wanted with your shot. Glamour photography coud be one of your hidden talents

Thanks Wendellt. Though I am not really into that kind of photography

I was behind the DJ at the front, there were quite a few other guys with canon lenses that got in my way so i was constantly straffing left to right

I could see only one guy with D2X and big alluminium case full of lenses. It has to be you.

Maybe it is worth to present other shots, so we could learn more contributing from more experienced guys generous comments. It could be kind of extra excersise since subject and event is the same and all could sits in one place. What do you think? It is your thread. Personally I would be happy to see others output and show mine.

Regards,

K.Polak

Hi Krystian

the guy with the lenses and the d2X was named 'BOZ' the photographer
we chatted a while he actually has a D2H and he covers many fashion events I gave him a few of my cigarettes because i am trying to quit.

Submit more of your work on this thread

I will submit a few but without differential focus I think they are all crap
my shots will only show my skill in anticipating the moment the model turns and winks back but that moment is spoiled by the busy background.

[krpolak]

Wendellt

That is fine. I am goint to present almost not processed originals, so they will not be that good Afternoon, when I will come back home.

Regards,

K.Polak

[wendellt]

Now this is the sort of differential focus i like subject in focus on a flushed background. I simulated this effect in photoshop

[krpolak]

Wendellt

Thanks for you image, my though for it at the end of this post.

Few examples of mine. Presented image are full frame with small cropping in some cases and some post (sharpening, levels). First of all as I mentioned previosuly I found myself there accidently so I was not realy prepared, neither with experience nor gear.

I had my manual 105 and I decided to give it a go. The only problem for me was that there was not really time for focusing as I am used to, everything happens quickly. So first few ladies came pretty badly. However after few minutes and few trial I started to get into.

With shot below I tried to prefocus first and catch a model once se will go into the zone. It worked fine, as can be seen on pic no. 1. The problem seems to be when she move forward. I was still anable to get her into focus again, pics no. 2 and 3. Remember that we are talking about manual focusing.



So I found that it is better idea to follow model with focusing, so I have her all time in spot and can put attention to other issues, like framing, carching good pose ect. Also with this technique I was able to predict models move and to frame before she went into a focus zone. This worked accually well, even with my lack of experience.







When final came I got 50/1.8 AF. I must say I was disappointed with result. Focusing was not that reliable as two examples shows below. First one is completly out of focus, but second one is quite in spot. To defend Nikon AF system I must say I forgot to switch to continous focusing mode. Also, lets dont forget, that D70 is amator body.





I would like to say that I pretty liked manual focusing. It needs practice, but I felt I had more control over whole situation.

Other issue is that being in public section I was limited with framing I would like to choose. Also set up was not that great as can be found on more pro shows. Anyway, oy was good learning experience and that is great.

And comming back to your photo. I recon that kind of depth can be achieve with longer focal lenfth. It is important to have certain proportion between candit distance, depth of field size and background distance. Most of my shots were taken with 105mm ate f4. It is closed to your idea, but i can bet 180 could do it.

Any thoughts, comments and advices are warmly welcome

Regards,

K.Polak

[wendellt]

Krystian

your one skillful man, I was on full automatic focus
I don't think i can handle manual focus in such a dynamically changing situation.

You have captured the parade with flair, seems like you changed locations quite alot

I love the lighting and tone of image 4, she was a great model too graceful and natural

Image 3 is a definitive portrait of a lovely woman and a creatively fashioned dress.

All you need is a few more shows and i think you got down tact

I am very anal about the tone and contrast of my images i always take shows at high shutterspeed like 320-400/100 so I can get a high contrast image with the bright spot lights and i love tweaking the white balance so i get a warmer shot

I simulated the flushed background on this set, but i love the colours and tone. I am more of a designer than a photographer so the art directed value of the final result is much more important to me, but it would have been a bonus if the i could achieve the flushed background with the lens instead of photoshop.



I had a great time how about you?

[krpolak]

your one skillful man, I was on full automatic focus. I don't think i can handle manual focus in such a dynamically changing situation.

It was tough, very tough, but also I felt it as a flow, when shutter release is natural consequence of long motion peak.

And there is no need to catch model on the run. The best part is when she stops for a moment and make a pose. And you get that very well. Your first pic is really good. I understand that you have done post on that and obviously having good dof from camera could be better. But finaly what matters is result. I should spend some time on mine

You have captured the parade with flair, seems like you changed locations quite alot

I started right in front, but dj guy was to fidgety and he spoiled so many good framings with his hat so I move to the side. But place where I would like to be are stairs at the end of stage close to jury. That is the the best point.

All you need is a few more shows and i think you got down tact

Accually, do you have any idea where to get info on next shows and how to get anpass to non-public section? It could be fun to make one more. Anybody?

I had a great time how about you?

I was going to Wooloomooloo to get few, long planned photos. Instead I ended up with fashion. And it was good

Regards,

K.Polak[/quote]

[wendellt]

Melbourne Fashion week is coming up
you can register to be a MAFW memebr but it does not guarantee that you get invited to the individual shows, it's up to the designer to invie you
the membership costs AU$2000

or you can make friends with this guy:

Brad Hick
http://www.six6photography.com.au

In the fashion industry it's all about who you know

Or you can just get in touch with event organizers when you hear that something is on and ask them if you can get a press pass.

I started my networking at Fashion week because my mum worked for Trent Nathan, Jill Fitzsimon, Jodie Boffa and Fred Bare, i tagged along to their shows

but back then I could not bring a camera in because media coverage is pre-organized at those events, but it's a great opportunity to make contacts

Anyway next year my mum is organizing her own show, it will be big probably held at one of the old wharfs
I will make sure it's a dSLRusers exclusive event, anyone is invited

[birddog114]

Melbourne Fashion week is coming up
you can register to be a MAFW memebr but it does not guarantee that you get invited to the individual shows, it's up to the designer to invie you
the membership costs AU$2000

2K for membership? better I have my own models and be happy!
Guess what? if few guys in DSLRUsers.com put 2k each, we can shoot the models until die not drop