Focusing on a 20D

[cordy]

Hey all,

A quick question about the focusing on the 20D. Im curious how fast the focusing is? The reason Im asking in particular is I need to know if its acceptable for shooting fast moving jets and motorsports?

A little dissapointed with the D200 launch - price is pretty horrible and they havent really improved the focusing over the D70 much.

Cheers,

Chris

[petal666]

I know people who use the 20D for motor sport. Works fine with my Sigma 120-300f2.8 and even better with a Canon 300f2.8

[DaveB]

The focus is very fast on the 20D, but there are lots of factors that come into it.

First, the faster the lens you're using (ie. the more light it lets in) then the more contrast that is available for the AF sensors to detect. This does affect the speed in most light conditions as well as the basic ability to focus in lower light.
The reduced DOF of the wider aperture can also allow the body to achieve better focus, as it focusses to "within the DOF" rather than to an absolute point.

Second, the focus mechanism in the lens makes a big difference. Canon's old AFD motors are slow and noisy. The "micromotor USM" (as used in the 75-300mm IS clunker) is quiet but just as slow. The micromotor USM lenses have a USM motor that then drives traditional lens gearing, whereas the "ring USM" has a USM motor that goes all the way around the lens and drives it directly.
"Ring USM" (Sigma's HSM is roughly equivalent although possibly a bit slower on some lenses) is very fast at focussing.

You can't tell from the name of an EF lens which type of USM it has: it will just include "USM" in the name. But ring USM can generally be distinguished by the ability to manually change the focus without having to switch the lens explicitly to MF. This FTM (full-time manual focus) when combined with custom functions on the body opens up more possibilities (e.g. I sometimes prefocus manually then use AF to finish the job, and vice versa).

So, a 20D combined with a fast lens with ring USM will focus very quickly indeed (ok, if you're used to a 1DMkII body you might not use the word "very" in that description, but it's still fast). A 10D isn't as good, and a D60 is horrible by comparison (for fast-moving subjects, at least).

But there's still more to the story. If you're tracking a moving object you need to keep the relevant AF sensor on the appropriate part of the subject as you pan. The 20D only has 9 sensors, with sizeable gaps between them. This isn't as effective as (say) a 1D-series body with 45 sensors. The 5D has introduced 6 more sensors positioned to fill some of those gaps and allow better transference of subject focus between different points.
How well this will work for you is a personal thing. I have a lot of success with flying birds, swimming/jumping dolphins, etc, and when I've been at Avalon Airshow I've been happy with the performance with flying planes.

But as with everything, YMMV!

[cordy]

Ahh yeap, thanks guys - that clears it up for me. I was at Avalon too and had some issues with a quick lense + D70 and this has been attributed to the D70's focusing.

Looks like I may be moving to the darkside sooner than I thought then

Thanks again

Chris

[DaveB]

I just realised I wrote "USM motor". That would be an UltraSonic Motor motor...

Sigh! I hate it when I repeat myself again and again....

[cordy]

Just like when people say ATM Machine

Chris

[xorl]

A little dissapointed with the D200 launch - price is pretty horrible and they havent really improved the focusing over the D70 much.

The reports I've seen from people who have handled a pre-production D200 indicate the focusing performance is a significant improvement over the D70 (as you would expect). Of course, until the final product is available for purchasing/reviewing we won't really know how well it performs.

[Glen]

Cordy, how much faster than a D70 was the D200 focussing? (or probably more correctly, how much slower than the D2X was the focussing?)

[cordy]

Glen

The D70 was CAMS800/900 from memory and the D200 is CAMS1000. Not a huge leap in my eyes, but there is more sensors which may help it a little. D2X is CAMS2000

Chris

[cordy]

A little dissapointed with the D200 launch - price is pretty horrible and they havent really improved the focusing over the D70 much.

The reports I've seen from people who have handled a pre-production D200 indicate the focusing performance is a significant improvement over the D70 (as you would expect). Of course, until the final product is available for purchasing/reviewing we won't really know how well it performs.

If anything I would expect it to be more accurate, not necassarily faster..

[Glen]

Sorry Chris, I knew the specs, but there are already D200 in Australia and my fault I misunderstood and thought you had used it. Sorry.

[NikonUser]

Why are people saying that MultiCAM 1000 is dissapointing when no one has really tested it properly in a production camera yet?

Sure it is only '100' above the CAM900 used in the D70 but according to Nikon it's a totally redesigned thing.

I'm not saying that the D200 won't have dissapointing autofocus results.... or that it will be fantastic. I personally have no idea until I try one for myself....

It just seems that many people are making judgements about a camera they haven't seen apart from in some pre-production pictures.

Just my two cents.

Paul

[xorl]

There is a lot more to AF than the number used in the model version (number of sensors, sensor types, accuracy, speed, motor, tracking ability, low light sensitivity, ..). So far we know the number, type & layout of the sensors, everything else is unknown. It will be possible to judge the performance after the product has been released .

[yeocsa]

I had used Canon 10d, Nikon D70, Nikon D2H and now Canon 20d. AF wise, I can say that 20d has better predictive AF than even the D2H in focus tracking. In terms of camera responsiveness, D2H is better. The other factor is the lens. Canon L lens are better in terms of AF performance.

I would be very disappointed if Nikon D200's AF is not better than D2H.

regards,

Arthur

[Stuart Trevena]

Hi All,

I have looked at the Nikon D70s for Aviation Photography, as I already have many suitable lenses, from my film days with a Nikon F601 and F60.

But after talking to the many members of jetspotter.com, (of which I am a member) most of which have either a Canon 20D or 300D (I think), I have decided to buy a Canon 20D with a 17-85mm f/4.5-5.6 IS USM Lense and a EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS USM Lense.

They tell me that the Canon 20D is far Superior in the Focus Dept., thanks in part to the CMOS Sensor.

I also asked several Camera stores in Geelong, which camera would be better, in the long run, they all said the same thing.

I think in some cases, Nikon is playing Catch Up.

Stuart

[Onyx]

They tell me that the Canon 20D is far Superior in the Focus Dept., thanks in part to the CMOS Sensor.

Quoted for ridicule.

[MattC]

But after talking to the many members of jetspotter.com.....
They tell me that the Canon 20D is far Superior in the Focus Dept., thanks in part to the CMOS Sensor.

I would be asking the experts at jetspotter.com for clarification on this.... considering that the CMOS sensor has absolutely nothing to do with focus speed....

I think in some cases, Nikon is playing Catch Up.

With what

Cheers

[dooda]

I don't understand people complaining about the price point of D200.
Half the price of the comparable 5D isn't reasonable? I don't get it.

[birddog114]

Stuart Trevena,
This is not Nikon vs Canon or vice versa, each camera has its own capabilities and performance and depends to many factors as lenses, lighting, subject and the guy behing the viewfinder.

Pros & cons there are in both sides, with the D70 or 20D or D2 with 1Ds MKII.
The only thing make you happy that you choose what you want to do and buy what you can afford.

The guy with the 300 or 350D still taking better shots than the one with the 1Ds MKII same as the guy with the D50 to the one, who has the D2x.

At the end of the day, you're the one who has the final judgment on your purchases.

The stores, or salesmen only can tell or convince you what they want to sell, most of them do not have the knowledges or owning two or three cameras or lenses in difference brands, which they can prove or telling you the right track.

[gstark]

They tell me that the Canon 20D is far Superior in the Focus Dept., thanks in part to the CMOS Sensor.

Hi Stuart, and welcome.

But you need to seriously consider the implications of this statement of yours.

Consider that the only time that the COMS sensor is exposed to light is during that actuial time that the exposure is made. By that time, all of the focussing, and most of the, if not all of, the exposure readings have also been completed.

Otherwise, you'd still be focussing while actually in the process of making the exposure.

While that might be acceptable if you're looking for a secial effect, as a genral rule, that's not the way it works, and those who have told you this are, quite simply, full of shit.

As to photographing fast moving objects, I've used my D70 with the 80-400 - reputed to be a slow lens in the AF department - to shoot such slow moving objects as F1 racecars in full flight and the RAAF Hornets when they do their flypast at the F1 in Melbourne, with no issues relating to AF, following focus, or exposure.

Or anything else, for that matter.

As with these matters, it's really the person driving the camera that's the issue, and those who say that the D70 is better or worse than a D20 simply don't really know how to use their tools.

Either camera will turn out very high quality images, and neither camera will, once you understand how to use it, present issues in these areas.

My suggestion is to not listen to these idiots (the sensor controls AF ???? ROTFLMAO!) but to go into a local store and actually have a play with the cameras that you're considering buying. See which ones you feel more comfy with; which ones work better in your hands, and at your eye.

That's how you make a good decision, rather than listening to the sort of bullshit that you're quotiing here.

[Aussie Dave]

They tell me that the Canon 20D is far Superior in the Focus Dept., thanks in part to the CMOS Sensor.

Hi Stuart, and welcome.

But you need to seriously consider the implications of this statement of yours.

Consider that the only time that the COMS sensor is exposed to light is during that actuial time that the exposure is made. By that time, all of the focussing, and most of the, if not all of, the exposure readings have also been completed.

Otherwise, you'd still be focussing while actually in the process of making the exposure.

While that might be acceptable if you're looking for a secial effect, as a genral rule, that's not the way it works, and those who have told you this are, quite simply, full of shit.

As to photographing fast moving objects, I've used my D70 with the 80-400 - reputed to be a slow lens in the AF department - to shoot such slow moving objects as F1 racecars in full flight and the RAAF Hornets when they do their flypast at the F1 in Melbourne, with no issues relating to AF, following focus, or exposure.

Or anything else, for that matter.

As with these matters, it's really the person driving the camera that's the issue, and those who say that the D70 is better or worse than a D20 simply don't really know how to use their tools.

Either camera will turn out very high quality images, and neither camera will, once you understand how to use it, present issues in these areas.

My suggestion is to not listen to these idiots (the sensor controls AF ???? ROTFLMAO!) but to go into a local store and actually have a play with the cameras that you're considering buying. See which ones you feel more comfy with; which ones work better in your hands, and at your eye.

That's how you make a good decision, rather than listening to the sort of bullshit that you're quotiing here.

Good advice Gary.

I can see how those new to dSLR photography can be easily fooled into thinking more MP is better, this camera has faster AF, etc. etc....but retailers tend to only tell customers what they want in order to sell the cameras they want to sell. I've overheard some pretty ridiculous things when visiting retail shops , and customers that don't know better lap it up.

Just the other day at work, I tried to explain to someone that MP between a dSLR and a P&S was not really comparible (and certainly not relevant to final picture quality - between the two)....but they thought I was full of shit because the salesman at the retail store (who apparently knew what he was talking about), said something completely different.

What to do ???

Stuart, do some research of your own on the net etc.., take it all in and then make your own mind up. That's what I did before I purchased my D70. As suggested, go to the shop and play with the cameras. The "technically" best camera may feel awkward and unattractive to you. Would you still buy it, not being happy with the feel of the camera, just because "on paper", or by one-eyed supporters of that particular brand. state it to be "the best" ?!?

Every camera has it's own pros & cons. Every camera has the potential to be "the best" (depending on what YOU want). There is no one camera that is best for everybody. If there was, we'd all have the same camera and there'd be no debate

[sirhc55]

I would be very disappointed if Nikon D200's AF is not better than D2H.

regards,

Arthur

Arthur - the D2H uses the CAM2000, the same as the D2X so there is no way that the D200 CAM100 will be better IMO

[gstark]

retailers tend to only tell customers what they want in order to sell the cameras they want to sell. I've overheard some pretty ridiculous things when visiting retail shops , and customers that don't know better lap it up.

Just the other day at work, I tried to explain to someone that MP between a dSLR and a P&S was not really comparible (and certainly not relevant to final picture quality - between the two)....but they thought I was full of shit because the salesman at the retail store (who apparently knew what he was talking about), said something completely different.

At which point one should ask when the last time was that the salesperson had taken each camera out and shot of a 1GB card ull of images, PP'd them, and ran off some A3+ prints for framing.

Watch the salesdweebs run and hide like Michelle Leslie when the Bali Police and Muslim Association come a-knocking.

If the salesman genuinely knows how to use the features of the camera, then great. But I certainly wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for that to happen anytime soon ...