Wedding - HELP!!

[robboh]

The dreaded day has arrived, someone has asked me to do a wedding.

To give you some background, a mate has asked me to do this for some good friends of his as a favour to him. I feel that I probably should do it for him as he has done a lot for me over the years and this would be a good way to be a good mate in return. Ive mentioned to them/him that this isnt really my forte and that Im definitely not a pro.

The basic response from that appears to be that:
a) its second time around for both of them
b) if I didnt do it, they wouldnt be paying for a photographer and that otherwise they would just be getting guests to take pics.
c) they feel it would be nice if they could have someone (possibly a non-guest) who knows a bit about photography dedicated to taking pics to let the guests enjoy the day.

Given these criteria, I know that Im not taking food out of a pro's pocket and that I reckon i should be able to handle it, even though its giving me the willies. My other half has also regularly told me over the years that she thinks I should do some stuff like this as she thinks Im good at it and is keen to come and help as an assistant. Little does she know that this means she is gonna get dragged out for HEAPS of practise shots between now and the end of next month

While this isnt a paid gig (though my mate has mentioned payment or else helping with costs over&above printing etc), I would like to do do the best possible job I can and it wouldnt hurt to have a wedding in my portfolio either (I will be making this a proviso of doing the job, that I am able to use any pics in my portfolio).

I have done a few weddings as a guest, though back in my film days. Interestingly, in every case I have done this, its been one of my pics which has ended up on the B&G's wall as opposed to the hired photographer. However, this is definitely the first time that I would be the primary photog and while it seems they arent expecting a lot, its still a lot of responsibility.

Ive gone and sat down with them for an hour or so and scouted out the locations they are thinking of. The wedding itself will be a garden wedding out the back of the house, with a quick trip to the parents and a local beach to do some formals and some car pics on the beach as well (they are car nuts). There will be the B&G, best man, lead bridesmaid, her 13 y/o daughter as 2nd b/m and their 2yo son as well (shudder). Also, there will be another young lad as ring bearer, but he wont be doing the formals. They are reasonably attractive people as well, so that will make the job a bit easier.

She doesnt want any 'getting ready' shots and basically just wants me to do the ceremony, some groups shots, and a few formals. Maybe with a few candids of the guests afterwards. The ceremony is at 2.30pm and they want to be back with the guests by 4.30pm.

Bride will be wearing a beige dress, groom in a light shirt and undetermined trousers. Bridesmaids will be burgany tops with beige skirts. Im thinking (from the description) that the outfits will likely contrast well against grass and evergreen trees, but not so much against sea cliffs or jetty's.

The ceremony will be under a tree, but by the looks of it, the tree wont be providing any shade at that time of day and will be coming either directly or 3/4 onto their faces depending on exactly the direction they stand.

Gear I have is:
D70
SB800
50 f1.8, kit lens, 70-200VR
2 x 512MB cards

Im hunting around to borrow/hire a second D70 as a backup body. Also going to buy/borrow another 4-5 1GB cards and either borrow a laptop or buy a PSD as well. I doubt I will be able to source a spare SB800

I do still have my film F601 and a decent GN dedicated flash for it which I could use as a backup, but the problem with using that is I would have to go and buy around 10 rolls of Fuji NPH to make it a realistic backup. Film which I will never otherwise use. So a 2nd D70 makes sense to me if at all feasible.

With all that out the way, on to the questions. Keep in mind that its a few years since I did my last wedding and that my film camera had far fewer options to set, so was much simplier. Also, negs are much more forgiving than digital. Finally, that my recent usual photography is quite different to whats required at a wedding.

a) Do you think fill-flash would be recommended for the ceremony given the likely position of the sun in relation to them??
b) If fill-flash is recommended, then will should the SB800 be ok on-camera, or should I look at some sort of flash frame to get it out the side?
c) Do people typically use the diffuser that comes with the SB800 in these situations?? I also have one of those lumiquest bouncers, or should I look at getting a Lightsphere PJ.
d) I think that I probably should be using raw for this, even though the thought of processing them all makes me cringe, since it gives me more leeway for error.
e) White balance. I imagine that there wont be time to do WB pre-sets during the ceremony etc, so my thinking is to use a camera preset (such as Sunny -2) so as to keep them all the same, making post easier and similar warmth etc. Im thinking greycard pre-sets for the formals. Alternatively, is it worth ordering a ExpoDisc??
f) Metering. Do most people here rely on matrix/TTLBL? Or would spotting the shadow side of the face (should be ZoneV??) be a better bet, or plain old centre weighted??
g) Exposure. Do you typically get time to use full manual, or would aperture priority be the go? Again, I expect that while I might get time to do grey-card exposure for the formals, I doubt I will for the ceremony. Ive heard that you can use the ExpoDisc as an incident meter, again, would it be worth trying to source one??
h) Any net or book resources or suggestions for ideas that I could use to help plan what Im going to do for the formals??
i) Group shots. Im thinking that getting a bit of height (eg a chair) above the group will help with this.
j) Lenses to use. Im not sure how much room Im finally going to end up with for the ceremony, so am not sure whether the kit lens or the 50mm would be the better bet here. The kit lens worries me a little with regards to greater DOF, especially at the short end of the zoom. Im thinking the 70-200 in the 70-100 area would make a great lens for some of the formals, along with a few wide-angle shots with the kit lens and a few with the 50mm as well??
k) Filters. Would ND or UV filters be of any use?? Im thinking a ND might let me open up more if I hit the 1/500 flashsync barrier??

Apologies for the rather long post, but if you can comment or give me some thoughts on any of the above, that would be greatly appreciated. Also, if I have missed anything or if you have anything else to suggest or comment, that would be awesome!!

Cheers
Rob

[shutterbug]

a) It would be safer using fill flash.
b) On camera should be fine
c) Diffuser will be fine, or you can just dial down the flash out
d) This is up to you, I am a jpeg shooter
e) Use the camera presets or even AW
f) This depends on the situation, but matrix with flash will do a great job 90% of the time
g) "M" mode will be great, for consistant look... also "P" mode will be much less stressfull an dyou can concentrate on the compositions
h) Go to your local library to get some bridal magazines
i) Great
j) Use kit lens for wide angle stuff on one camera with sb800 and your 70-200VR for closeups on another
k) I have never come across this situation yet

ps. if you can, capture some images without flash, use the nature light (sun) to your advantage.[/i]

[shutterbug]

Beach Formal, Full Sun and No Flash

[xorl]

You might find http://johnlind.tripod.com/wedding/ has some good tips. Best of luck!

[MATT]

Robboh,

This seems like a good opertunity for you. You wont have the streess of a paying client and all goes well this may be an area to make some cash.

Not that I 've done any but, you seem to have though through the process, maybe you need to give yourself more credit .

I love this quote

They are reasonably attractive people as well, so that will make the job a bit easier.

Good luck

MATT

[robboh]

Guys, thanks for wading through my rather lengthy post. Appreciated!

Vincent.
Thanks for the replys and thoughts and tips. Ive read through all the wedding posts on here and there are lots of tips from you in those other posts as well, so thankyou for your help!!
Curious as to how you got such rich saturated colours in those beach pics (which look great by the way) without messing the skin tones up??

What sort of in-camera settings do you use?? Im thinking of RAW+JPEG so that I can get the proofs out with as little effort as possible and just doing PP on the ones they decide to enlarge and any that need a bit of tweaking.


Mark.
That link looks great and has lots of the sort of info I am looking for, so thankyou for that!!


Matt.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I doubt this will be a regular thing, but ya never know I guess

The 'attractive people' thing probably does sound quite funny, but its also quite true. They often tend to be more photogenic, relaxed, and more expressive in front of the camera, which really helps bring the pics to life. Plus you arent continually having to find angles that 'hide and flatter'. Im quite short (5' 7-8") and people tend to look towards the camera and looking down often creates or accentuates double chins etc.


Anyone else with any more tips, ideas, thoughts etc?

[robboh]

Just another few thoughts/questions.

What are peoples thoughts around using tripods/monopods at weddings? Ive never seen a photographer use either at any wedding Ive been to, so Im curious as to whether any of you use them and in what situations (eg for the formals?).

Also, the SB800 with the 70-200VR. Does this seem to work ok for you guys with fill-flash?? I was playing with the SB800 with kit lens last night (as primary light rather than fill) and noticed that the further out the lens was zoomed the more underexposed the pics were getting. If I manually zoomed the SB800 back to say 50mm, the exposure started getting better, though typically still only exposed to the end of the 3rd quadrant on the histogram (taking pics of a stuffed dog on the couch about 3m away, beige dog and dark green couch).

Adding +1EV exposure comp and +2/3EV flash comp seemed to give me a good exposure. Should I be having to change the exposure comps this much to get a good exposure with the SB800 inside at night?? I can post some pics if you like to give you an example. Not that its applicable for this wedding, but Im curious.

Do you normally leave zoom enabled on the SB800, or do you turn the zoom to manual and leave it set at widest zoom?

With the D70, you can set a minimum shutter speed to use with the flash. What do most people use here??

[shutterbug]

Curious as to how you got such rich saturated colours in those beach pics (which look great by the way) without messing the skin tones up??

What sort of in-camera settings do you use?? Im thinking of RAW+JPEG so that I can get the proofs out with as little effort as possible and just doing PP on the ones they decide to enlarge and any that need a bit of tweaking.

The colours are from PP, via increasing saturation and playing with curves and also layers

Camera setting, was using D70, all captured in jpeg, I have never captured in raw before, maybe i should try one day. But, if something is working well, why change it All incamera setting is on zero. RAW+JPEG should be a great.

[xorl]

What sort of in-camera settings do you use?? Im thinking of RAW+JPEG so that I can get the proofs out with as little effort as possible and just doing PP on the ones they decide to enlarge and any that need a bit of tweaking.

The RAW file actually includes a Basic JPEG itself (~700k). I'm not familiar with photo tools under Windows/MAC but I'm sure there are friendly tools out their to extract it - if not, I threw a Perl script together which you can have . I just shoot RAW by itself to conserve CF space and extract the JPEGs after downloading. There doesn't seem to be much point shooting RAW+JPEG on the D70.

What are peoples thoughts around using tripods/monopods at weddings? Ive never seen a photographer use either at any wedding Ive been to, so Im curious as to whether any of you use them and in what situations (eg for the formals?).

If you have a single location for the formals a tripod might be useful, especially as the light decreases at the end of the day. If you are moving around a lot, tripod setup/packup might just chew time which you don't have. I'd take it just in case . If your not using a tripod don't be afraid to bump up the ISO as required to get a decent shutter - ambient light is often more interesting than flash.

I was playing with the SB800 with kit lens last night (as primary light rather than fill) and noticed that the further out the lens was zoomed the more underexposed the pics were getting. If I manually zoomed the SB800 back to say 50mm, the exposure started getting better, though typically still only exposed to the end of the 3rd quadrant on the histogram (taking pics of a stuffed dog on the couch about 3m away, beige dog and dark green couch).

Hmm, that's odd. Did the SB800 show an underexposure warning after taking those pictures? Were you using bounce flash?

Do you normally leave zoom enabled on the SB800, or do you turn the zoom to manual and leave it set at widest zoom?

Zoom works fine for me with fill. For bounce I generally set the zoom myself. Any underexposure (excluding distance) is usually caused by the subject, not the zoom - unless the light is pointing the wrong way .

With the D70, you can set a minimum shutter speed to use with the flash. What do most people use here??

I generally end up using Manual mode with flash. I find it much easier to balance the amount of ambient light with the flash.

[robboh]

The colours are from PP, via increasing saturation and playing with curves and also layers

Camera setting, was using D70, all captured in jpeg, I have never captured in raw before, maybe i should try one day. But, if something is working well, why change it All incamera setting is on zero. RAW+JPEG should be a great.

PP... mutter grumble grizzle
Do you set up a new layer with the enhanced saturation and then modify the opacity of that layer? Maybe you could talk a bit about your general PP workflow if you have time??

So, you use the 'Optimize Image' menu set to 'Custom' and then 0 everything in there (including tone control and sharpening)?? Have you played with lowering the tone control at all to help with highlights?

Hmmm. Maybe this whole wedding thing is going to be a really useful exercise from the point of view that its MAKING me get to know the camera inside out

[robboh]

The RAW file actually includes a Basic JPEG itself (~700k). I'm not familiar with photo tools under Windows/MAC but I'm sure there are friendly tools out their to extract it - if not, I threw a Perl script together which you can have . I just shoot RAW by itself to conserve CF space and extract the JPEGs after downloading. There doesn't seem to be much point shooting RAW+JPEG on the D70.

Hmmm. Okay. I knew there was an embedded JPG thumbnail in the raw file, but hadnt realised that it was actually a full-rez JPG with Basic compression.

You've made my day there. Im sick of the way iPhoto deals with raw pics so I usually dont bother sticking them in iPhoto for the other half. iPhoto basically imports the raw file and then run them through the OS X raw decoders (which arent the best at times on the D70, very noisy) to produce a 2MB JPG which it then uses for the thumbnail etc.

My normal workflow is to download my cards to a new folder (eg ~/Pictures/20060112 - Subject Description), copy that new folder to another disk as a backup, and then import into iPhoto. So I end up with my RAW file, the RAW file in iPhoto and the cruddy iPhoto generated JPG which is usually useless for doing any PP on. If I can easily extract a decent JPG that keeps all the settings specified in-camera, then I can do run an extract after I do my inital download/backup and then import those JPG's into iPhoto.

I talk Perl, so a copy of the script would be great!! Hopefully there wont be too many modules I have to CPAN??

Hmm, that's odd. Did the SB800 show an underexposure warning after taking those pictures? Were you using bounce flash?

Nope, the SB800 didnt seem to be grizzling about underexposure. With the flash pointing directly at the subject, the diffusion dome seemed to typically make it worse, which doesnt make sense to me given that it should be a TTL measurement of the light return. Bouncing seemed to give a better result. I might run some more tests tonight and make better notes of what I am doing and start another thread.

With the D70, you can set a minimum shutter speed to use with the flash. What do most people use here??

I generally end up using Manual mode with flash. I find it much easier to balance the amount of ambient light with the flash.

Curious on your thoughts around why manual makes this easier? With the SB800 (AFAIK) you can get rid of that annoying issue with TTL/BL being always enabled on the D70 (apart from in manual and spot). Once thats gone, then the only control thats affecting your key light is aperture?? Or are you talking about fill-flash situations here?? I spose with manual you wouldnt need to enable slow sync?

[xorl]

I talk Perl, so a copy of the script would be great!! Hopefully there wont be too many modules I have to CPAN??

Actually, I'd forgotten that it was just a simple shell script. You need Image::ExifTool. This is an awesome package for handling Exif data in Raw/JPG files and comes with a program called "exiftool". You can use the following commands with some scripting to batch process a bunch of images:

Code: Select all

exiftool -b -JpgFromRaw $NEF > $JPG
exiftool -overwrite_original -TagsFromFile $NEF $JPG

The first one extracts the Jpeg, the second copies the Exif information from the RAW file to the Jpeg. Note that a real Basic JPEG from the camera would have slightly different Exif details - some RAW specs would be removed. However, all the important details remain the same. Use exiftool to dump the info from NEF/JPG files if you want to see the exif differences.

Nope, the SB800 didnt seem to be grizzling about underexposure. With the flash pointing directly at the subject, the diffusion dome seemed to typically make it worse, which doesnt make sense to me given that it should be a TTL measurement of the light return. Bouncing seemed to give a better result. I might run some more tests tonight and make better notes of what I am doing and start another thread.

This does sound weird. Some images with notes might make it easier to work out.

Curious on your thoughts around why manual makes this easier? With the SB800 (AFAIK) you can get rid of that annoying issue with TTL/BL being always enabled on the D70 (apart from in manual and spot). Once thats gone, then the only control thats affecting your key light is aperture?? Or are you talking about fill-flash situations here?? I spose with manual you wouldnt need to enable slow sync?

Ah, I meant manual on the camera, instead of P, S or A mode. The shutter/aperture/ISO on the camera can be adjusted to get the desired ambient exposure (wrt to blur, DoF, brightness, etc..). The flash will (more or less) make sure the foreground is exposed properly.

Although in a studio setting (where the flash doesn't move but I might), I like to use the flash in manual mode as well since I know exactly what it will do each time. Again, manual mode on the camera gives full control of ambient light and other factors.

Hope this helps..

[Dug]

Hint Take an esky with cold drinks beer for the groom something light or water with a straw for the bride. keep it handy and after the ceremony is over just quietly offer them a drink. I usually buy a couple of the small bottles of fizz Champaign stuff and some straws, it keeps everyone happy take a few plastic Champaign glasses if you want.

They will have a dry mouth form the service and will think you are the best person in the world!!!

Just a few sweets and a small soft drink or juice for the kids
The 13 year old treat her like an adult, sneak her a small Champaign and she will think you are the best ever.



Take a ladder or some small steps for the group photo it is easier to get everyones face from above and they pay more attention to you if you are up high

Have fun, Joke, don't stress, they will be doing enough of that for you.

Easy to say, but just keep shooting, you will relax.

Cover the day remember to get the funny stuff even if it is out of focus and badly exposed if it is of someone they love doing something they love they will (surprisingly LOVE IT!

remember it is about emotion happiness and celebration not F stops and shutter speeds.

Enjoy it!

[shutterbug]

remember it is about emotion happiness and celebration not F stops and shutter speeds.

[Geoff]

Dug (and Vince),
Some EXCELLENT advice!!

[Onyx]

Should you come to your senses, here's the number for a wedding photog. 02 775 9588, Bobby Reyes. Based in New Lynn, his studio's upstairs from the Kodak shop along Gt North Rd.

[robboh]

Should you come to your senses, here's the number for a wedding photog. 02 775 9588, Bobby Reyes. Based in New Lynn, his studio's upstairs from the Kodak shop along Gt North Rd.

Thanks for the tip Onyx
If I hear of anyone who is looking for a pro, I will point them in his direction. Sounds like you know Auckland quite well??

For this one, its not really a case of coming to my senses. If its not me (or someone else like me) doing it, then the guests will be doing it.

Cheers
Rob.

[robboh]

Actually, I'd forgotten that it was just a simple shell script. You need Image::ExifTool. This is an awesome package for handling Exif data in Raw/JPG files and comes with a program called "exiftool".

Thats awesome!! Thanks for that. I see there is also a Mac OS X droplet for doing preview extracts as well, so thats even better

Nope, the SB800 didnt seem to be grizzling about underexposure..... I might run some more tests tonight and make better notes of what I am doing and start another thread.

This does sound weird. Some images with notes might make it easier to work out.

Didnt get time to do this last night. Hopefully tonight or over the weekend.

Ah, I meant manual on the camera, instead of P, S or A mode. The shutter/aperture/ISO on the camera can be adjusted to get the desired ambient exposure (wrt to blur, DoF, brightness, etc..). The flash will (more or less) make sure the foreground is exposed properly.

Kewl, we were talking along the same lines, just from a slightly different POV.

Thanks for all the help!!

[robboh]

Hint Take an esky with cold drinks beer for the groom something light or water with a straw for the bride.

Good tip!! Thanks!!

Take a ladder or some small steps for the group photo it is easier to get everyones face from above and they pay more attention to you if you are up high

Especially when you are a short-arse like me

Have fun, Joke, don't stress, they will be doing enough of that for you. Easy to say, but just keep shooting, you will relax.

Thats what Im hoping. Like most things I guess, anticipation is usually far worse than the reality.

Cover the day remember to get the funny stuff even if it is out of focus and badly exposed if it is of someone they love doing something they love they will (surprisingly LOVE IT!
remember it is about emotion happiness and celebration not F stops and shutter speeds.

Its amazing how often this happens, the other half will often pick out a pic Ive completely rejected due to technical faults, but because it has a good expression or something.

Thanks.
Rob.