Portrait help please!

[Alpha_7]

Hi All,


I've been asked to shoot a temporary portrait shot for a new guy that started today. I had to get him in a suit and tie this afternoon, but this was a quick test shot (and crop). I didn't want to use flash, but looks like I have to, as it's very soft. I found the darkest background I could, but how can I make it go to black like the second shot... I basically want to mimic the style of the photographer in the second shot as best as I can ?


Any suggests or tips are most welcome.. Thanks!







I've already worked out I want him to pose the same.. sit side on and then look straight at the camera... any suggests on fstop, flash , etc ..shooting mode etc..

[stubbsy]

Craig

Well you could always use a black wall.

Otherwise, move him away from the wall - you want nothing to reflect light back at you. Also use a very fast shutter to reduce the DOF.

[losfp]

IMO the almost black background in the second shot doesn't really suit the photo, especially with the dark suit and dark hair. It kinda looks like a face and tie floating in space

But if you want that effect, then I reckon you'll have to use the flash, with the background wall a fair distance away. That'll let you use a faster shutter speed, so the background is less exposed.

[Oneputt]

Without a lot of PP the only way I believe is to start off with a black background. I have a few yards of black material I keep for just such a purpose. Not a lot of help, sorry.

[johnd]

Craig, apart from the obvious like get him in front of a dark background, probably the easiest way may be to get him in a low light environment and have him stand some distance away from the background wall, like 2 or 3 metres or so. Then use flash on either aperture or shutter priority. The flash intensity will be calculated according to the distance to him, so the background won't get enough light to properly expose it. Then, if you still need to get the background darker, get into PS and magic wand the background and use curves or some other adjustment to darken it.

[Alpha_7]

Thanks for the suggestions...

(and we don't like the head floating in space look either.. but it has to be as close to the other shots of all the employees as possible).

I'll try him far away from the wall, flash, fast shutter speed..

and see how I go.

[moggy]

Bummer about the black background Craig, when I was in charge of security in my old job I used a blue/grey background and it seemed to suit most complexions. Best of luck with the photo.

Bob.

.

[ABG]

Craig,

Apart from the obvious use of a dark background, using bounce flash and moving your subject away from the background will help. That way, the subject will be well lit, but the background will remain dark.

Andrew

[Aussie Dave]

Hi Craig
it may also help to use "spot metering" so you can expose for the face, which will hopefully be brighter than the background. This should help to underexpose the background (if it is indeed lighter than your subject's face). If you use Matrix of centre-weighted metering, the camera will take the background into consideration and set the exposure accordingly.

Hope this is helpful...

[Alpha_7]

Thanks everyone for the help, while the results aren't brilliant.... considering the time frame and the resources I think I came up with an ok end result...

my CRT and LCD are at opposite ends of the colour / gamma scheme so I had to go off our Client service PC to gauge a decent shot compared to the others. Here's an example..



Thanks for the fast feedback, it was most appreciated...

[xerubus]

the outcome looks okay. with the next one you do i'd suggest moving the person as far as you can away from the background to eliminate the shadow... and go for a fairly shallow dof to soften the hardness of the background.

looks like you did fine afterall

cheers

[Alpha_7]

It was taken in an air condition closet, with me standing on a 2 beer esky.. the closet is full of air con equipment.. and is the size of a large wardrobe.. unfortunately I was stretching the area to it's limits

It was very entertaining I guess I shouldn't of used F8? and that would of helped with the DOF ?



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ISOSpeedRatings - 200
ShutterSpeedValue - 1/500 seconds
ApertureValue - F 8.00
ExposureTime - 1/500 seconds
FNumber - 8.00
ExposureProgram - Manual control
DateTimeOriginal - 2005:11:28 13:52:44
DateTimeDigitized - 2005:11:28 13:52:44
ExposureBiasValue - 0.00
MaxApertureValue - F 4.44
MeteringMode - Multi-segment
LightSource - Auto
Flash - Flash fired, auto mode, return light detected, red-eye reduction mode

[xerubus]

It was taken in an air condition closet, with me standing on a 2 beer esky.. the closet is full of air con equipment.. and is the size of a large wardrobe.. unfortunately I was stretching the area to it's limits

It was very entertaining

the important question then is was there any beer in the esky?

[redline]

if your lack the space to move the subject further away from the bg.
you could use an overhead flash to reduce the bg shadow. but it would give you shadows off the nose which could be elimated by a reflector board underneath.

[Alpha_7]

I only have the onboard speedlight so I didn't think I had many options with the flash.. he was super sensitive to the flash too.. and kept blinking so I used the red eye function to try to keep his eyes open for the shot..


Sadly no beer in the esky.. plenty in the fridge

[Alpha_7]

Hi Everyone,


I thought I would just revisit this situation again. The conditions are the same (just a different person to photograph this time). However I do have 2 more bits of gear over last time. The first is the sb-800 and the second is the 80-200 f2.8. We also have a little more space as in I can back away from the aircondition cupboard more (a glass wall has now been removed).

So given that I have this near gear should I change my angle of attack ?
I was thinking of maybe using the flash in remote mode, and maybe using the 80-200 instead of the kit lens (I also have the tripod if anyone thinks its necessary, but with the fast shutter speed I don't think I'll need it).

[birddog114]

Craig,

It depends on what type of portrait that you're going to shoot.

The 80-200 required a distance between the camera and model.

The 18-70 is also another glass to shoot portrait but it's not really shine, you can't do much, if you can get a loaned 50/1.4 or 85/1.4, these lenses will help you a lot.

Pls. consider the following, prior to shoot:
- The main lightning sources?
- Backdrop?
- Remote flash(es) is good but not always.
- Studio flash, umbrellas etc....
- Evaluate the shooting position

[Alpha_7]

Hi Birdy,

This is just a shot for work, so no actual studio setup. Just me, my current kit and a black aircondition cupboard. Last time I couldn't get enough distance between me, the subject and the black wall so I got a very definite shadow. This time with the extra room I have another 3 metres I can back away, and also with the SB-800 I am hoping to get rid of the shadow or atleast reduce it.

This is the kind of shot I am trying to create (or a similar style.. taken by a pro photographer (a shit one if you ask me).


And this is one example of a Non-PP'ed shot from last time...

[Alpha_7]

The Photos are done, I'll upload the results soon.

[Glen]

Craig, do they pay you by the hour for photography work? I noticed you started the thread on Nov 28th 2005 and just finished the photos today, 7th Feb 2006

[Alpha_7]

No I wish . I don't even get paided by the hour for my IT work. Anyways, as I'm the resident photo nut, I'm not responisble for new employee's mug shots... It's good experience that I wouldn't normally get, and a few people at work appreciate the work.

[big pix]

A lighter coloured background with the dark jackets would give you better seperation between subject and background...........oof blinds are good and different

[Alpha_7]

A lighter coloured background with the dark jackets would give you better seperation between subject and background...........oof blinds are good and different

Big Pix a light colour background would give better seperation but for some reason the black on black is what the original photographer went for, the photos I shoot are on the same webpage and also used in the same presentations... so to look uniform I have to keep with the same back background and the effect of "disembodied heads" floating in a sea of black.

[big pix]

A lighter coloured background with the dark jackets would give you better seperation between subject and background...........oof blinds are good and different

Big Pix a light colour background would give better seperation but for some reason the black on black is what the original photographer went for, the photos I shoot are on the same webpage and also used in the same presentations... so to look uniform I have to keep with the same back background and the effect of "disembodied heads" floating in a sea of black.

...... I sea......':lol:'

[mikephotog]

Looking at that first shot almost has me wondering if it was shot by diffused/soft daylight?

[Alpha_7]

Mikephotog,

I think you are right, I don't believe he had a flash.

Here is my slightly PP'ed version of the shot they are considering using.

[big pix]

if you had used a soft back light up high or bounced off the ceiling it would have been a lot better......... but as you are matching another image which I would class as not very professional, you have done a very good job......... so where is your self portrait

[mikephotog]

I echo bigpix, a bounced flash from the ceiling (if low and neutral enough) would add a little more hair light (as in the first pic) and a little more seperation around the shoulder area.

[Alpha_7]

Thanks for the comments, I was trying to bounce of the roof, but being in a TINY black room, the roof is black too! So the bounce wasn't working as well as I hoped. Apparently I've got more to do tomorrow, 3-4 of the girls need to get their mug shots done too. I might look around home and see if I have a black sheet or something...


(Should I be trying to use available light rather then diffused/bounced flash ?)

[gstark]

Craig,

Can you bluetac a white sheet to the ceiling?

Or find another way to give yourself a white overhead surface for bouncing the light from?

If the ceiling is black, trying to bounce your flash from it will actually have a different effect from what yo're expecting - it will be a subtractive experience, which can be useful when there's too much light in one area of the subject, but that's not the case here.

You need to open up and spread the light in some way, and even something like a sheet of white foam core board, mounted in front of but above the subject, will be of great assistance here.

[Alpha_7]

Thanks for the suggestsions Gary, I can probably get something white, be it a sheet or cardboard up there. Does it have to be white to bounce correctly ? Just I do have a Silver reflector (of the car sunshield variety) that I could of used this morning.

[gstark]

Craig,

The reflector may work, but it may be a bit too harsh. Certainly worth trying, but look for mirror style reflections, which are the last things that you want to be seeing.

The other thing with a windscreen reflector is that it may be too narrow to be tryuly effective. Certainly worth experimenting with though.

Foam core board will be a very economical solution though, and may be more neutral. You can pick up a sheet at OfficeJerks for maybe $4 or so, it's very rigid, and somewhat squarer in its shape. Just pin it to the ceiling halfway between yourself and the subject, and you'll be pretty close to the mark.

[mikephotog]

Make it easier....get some $ from petty cash, buy a length of black material from Spotlight and shoot them outdoors...in open shade.

[Oneputt]

I have watched a lot of these baby photogs in shopping centres. They seem to use a single flsah straight into a reflector (silver) and a dark background. Think I might start to experiment myself.

[Alpha_7]

Well here are the end results of the shots from today (and one from earlier that I re-pp'ed for my wife) as she didn't like here shots from today.

Overall I'm not happy with the shots, but Client Service are.. and in a sense they are the Client is this arrangement so I've given them what they want.




I did use bounced flash of white this time as advised, and I do think it helped. If you think the colour looks a bit funny, its because my wife wanted to look less "ghost" like.

[wendellt]

craig the first one is good and the irradescent gell version works too but i think you need to tweak the colour balance setting on the camera when you use the gel to +2

anyway this is my suggestion, the dark background is good except if the person is wearing black


for the fred bare shoot i used a 2 o clock lighting position with a 1 strobe, the basic principle of the stobe works the same as yoru sb800, it's a light source all you need is a sc28 cable so you can use the flash off the hotshoe and position it anywhere you like. You will need an assistant to hold the flash. The 2 o clock position for the light has gorgeous effects exentuates eyebrow ridge and models the face tones very nicely with defined highlihts and shadows, but it's up to you to experiment with different positions, this type of lighting maynot be optimal for coproate photos because it obscures the left hand side of the face but all you have to do i move the flash back a little while maintaining 2 o clock orientation and you can get more of the face in, but it looks good though.

you can do heaps with the sc28 cord and positioning the flash in different places near the model really produces great end results

This one was achieved with the sb800 flash poitioned at 2 o clock slightly above and infront of the model, only difference here is that there is some ambient light at the back and front of the model that gives it that exrtra mood, all can be achieved indoors all you need is a lamp somewhere in the office to slightly illuminate the room, then use the flash


if you dont get my 2 o clock terminology let me know
but essentially it just means imagine a clcok in front of the model and picture where the hand of the clock would point to at 2 o clock then position the flash in that area towards the model

these are a few portraits i did for our staff, they wanted something more creative than the standard corproate portrait so i shot these with the model in free pose, what is important here is the off shoe sb800 flash positioning most of these i had the flash just side on from the right 3 o clock lighting, it modelled the face nicely, you can do heaps of cool stuff with off shoe flash positioning even in afternoon light
2nd lesson here is background use for corporate photos can work, the backgroudn if the bridge from our office window but it is obscured nicely so nto all cases do you need a backdrop
you work at the piers craig you woudl have a similar view to us, perhaps try a series with a background
I shot these with the 50mm at f2 with a shutter of 1/200 hence the blown but pretty highlights, then cropped wide.
I did not use reflectors umbrellas whatever just a sc28 cord and a sb800
just play and play and play until you get what you want

[Alpha_7]

Thanks for the great tips and suggestions Wendell.

Unfortunately there wasn't much room for creativity for these mug shots, as I was recreating someone elses style / work.

(I haven't used the irradecent gels.. I thought they were mainly to correct the light under fluros with flash...etc

I had an added difficult as today and yesterday the SB-800 wasn't working reliably off the D70, it was mostly not working so I had to have it on camera.

Anyways, your shots with the bridge in the background are great.. lovely stuff.

[wendellt]

Thanks for the great tips and suggestions Wendell.

Unfortunately there wasn't much room for creativity for these mug shots, as I was recreating someone elses style / work.

(I haven't used the irradecent gels.. I thought they were mainly to correct the light under fluros with flash...etc

I had an added difficult as today and yesterday the SB-800 wasn't working reliably off the D70, it was mostly not working so I had to have it on camera.

Anyways, your shots with the bridge in the background are great.. lovely stuff.

i must say sometimes you can get so hung up on brief constraints and technical mumbo jumbo, seeing your tries i feel regrdless if your trying to emulate something via brief you can still allow for creative freedom, i.e the client most of the time does nto know what they want they come to you becuase you have a style or expertise, it's up to you to dictate the style of the shot
so play do what you do and believe me you will surprise yourself, that's what i did just play till the cows came home, they never did so i just play play play

[gstark]

Craig,

These are much better, and apart from the odd colour balance (hep B anyone? ) I think you're really getting this down. and I imagine that your employers would be quite satisfied with these.

What sort of issues was the SB800 giving you? Where, in relation to the camera, was it located? Was its IR window pointed away from the camera? If so, perhaps that was the source of the issues that were experiencing?


Now, for those wearing dark colours, if you could just introduce a small flash pointed towards the subjects' backs, to introduce a little bit of separation, I think these would be pretty well perfect corporate portraits.

[Alpha_7]

Thanks for the feedback Gary, I agree that a little back lighting would of helped create the seperation from the background and if I have another opportunity to shoot these shots (not till we hire someone new) I'll give it a try.

My problems with the SB-800 are probably suited to a better thread, but I had the IR window staring straight at the pop-up flash...
In testing I had the two a foot apart looking at each other and no fire... Or it fired once in 15 attempts. I haven't had time to do anymore testing but it wasn't behaving off camera, so I wacked it on D70 to take the shots (limited time frame of 10 minutes per person.)

[gstark]

My problems with the SB-800 are probably suited to a better thread, but I had the IR window staring straight at the pop-up flash...

Indeed, and yes, that sounds like it should be fine.

The next thing I'd be looking at are the various modes that can be set, both in-camera, and on the flash.

The SB800 is, IMHO, overly complicated. It's very un-Nikon in that it's interface is far from intuitive. I really think it's a case of they're trying to do far too much, which in many ways is a good thing, but it makes the design process for the UI so much more difficult.

[Alpha_7]

Just an update I've had to do a few more today, here is one where I used the SB-800 bounced of the roof but also used window light to provide some rim lighting. What do you think ?

[admajic]

In the last one you can distinguish the person from the background. I think its MUCH better. Good job.

[wendellt]

bounce flash gives you more that evenly distributed light

but i think the face is too red and i think you missed his expression too
just offering constructive critacism here craig and ill tell yu how you may fix it

1. do it in black and white reduce all those reddish tones
2. overexpose the shot a little, experiment here, you will find with flooded light that can help subdue some of the prominent textures on the face

rim light is cool but it's so subtle it does not contribute to this portrait

[Geoff]

That last shot Craig is (to me) on the money. A nice well composed and lit portrait for this type of scenario - works well. I'm sure they'd be happy with this one.

[Glen]

Craig, I think the last is a big step up

[greencardigan]

Craig, this last one is excellent. Significantly better than the others.

[Alpha_7]

rim light is cool but it's so subtle it does not contribute to this portrait

Really ? I personally photo that the rim lighting made all the difference in this shot, it provides seperation from the background, hence giving the shot more depth. The shots taken without it appear flat and 1 dimensional.

[owen]

I agree Craig. I think the last one in terms of lighting is a lot better than the rest.

[PiroStitch]

The lighting in the last one is better than the rest.

Can you tone down the colours a bit so that he doesn't look that pink. Also I think he's turning to the side far too much. If you can reshoot, or maybe for next time, have a bit more of the person's far shoulder as well so you don't get them hunching like this guy is.