Crusty Demons Dilema!!

[BBJ]

Hi All, well i have put in to do some shots here on April 1st for Crusty Demons as this being the first time here and should attract a good crowd even with there $55 entry fee. Only i got an email as follows:
Qoute:
Hi John,

We would like to have you on board as official photographer for the Mt Gambier Crusty’s show. For that to happen I would require all images you shoot burnt to a cd and free of charge. We would be only using these images for our own promotional purposes and they will not be on sold.

Let me know if this is of interest to you.

Thanks

Nathan

Now this is the bit i am not sure of, as well i wouldn't mind handing over something like 10 or 20 high res images, to cover cost for entry but to supply all would be like giving it all away for there use. Now they say not to be sold but what is stopping them using them in magazines etc... What are your thought's?
Thanks for advice.
John

[Grev]

Promotion can be of anything really, but they said it won't be sold... Not sure if it's wise to believe them or not...

Or maybe they give them to someone to sell them?

It just seems fishy...

[cyanide]

Quick question: what are you imagining the photos taken by the official photographer will be used for?

Surely "using them in magazines" comes under promotional, no? I would guess that is what they are thinking.

I would imagine "won't onsell" means they won't explicitly print one of the images and SELL it as a standalone product.... apart from that, printing in magazines, putting on covers of their DVDs etc, surely that is promotion for their core business - which is selling the actual Crusty Demons DVDs.

Just 2c worth of my initial thoughts....

Cheers PS: above aside... could be an interesting way in to a slightly different niche??

[Matt. K]

They actually had the nerve to demand your images for free! Stuff them!

[cordy]

I would only give them 10-20 shots and see what happens from there. With any luck you might get more work out of them. Don't burn your bridges as they say

Chris

[Oneputt]

I'm with Matt - no way. They could have asked to see the images and then negotiate with you but to demand them...?

[sirhc55]

For free The Crusty Farts

[TonyH]

Hi John,

they're trying to take advantage of you. I wouldn't be surprised if they had sent the letter to a few local photographers.

I'd be asking what they can do for me if I do give them the shots for free. Will I get photographic credit on their promotional materials? Would that help me to make more money down the track with a higher profile for my photography? If the answer is no, then consider sending them an email back offering to supply them with all images taken on the night and you charge $250 per hour to be paid in advance. Post production available at whatever hourly rate you think fair.

Don't forget they do not allow punters to see the show for free. As a result they are getting paid for what they enjoy doing, why should you and your skills be any different.

Good Luck.

Tony

[BBJ]

Thanks all for your coments, i too am thinking that this was a bit rough to supply all images, 10 or so high res for enty cover cost is ok but not all, so thanks for all your input i will work on something to reply back and see what happens.
Cheers
John

[redline]

hi John,
dvds, posters, magazines ad, stickers, the whole lot.
by giving free "promotional" images your bound to lose thousands of dollars reveune in lost income. Why not offer them "free" images with a 500$ hourly rate. by the way, is this going to be indoors/night? you might have to get some heavy duty lighting with some lib insurance

R

[Big V]

Just to throw a different perspective on this. They are letting you in for "free", they do not have to do that, it is their show, their rules. If you want to go to the clipsal to take photos, you have to pay and it says on the ticket that you can not sell the photos and that all images are property of them etc etc. Now if you are asked to provide for them your pics but you are still allowed to sell them, go for it. They have not said that you can not do this, only that they do not want to pay you. John, you need to decide if you want to see your images displayed to a huge audience and make some on the side or if you expect to be paid for them by crusty, you will not be able to sell them afterwards.

They do not know you from a bar of soap and I think we need to remind ourselves that we do not have a right to take pictures at these events. If we are allowed to, all well and good but after all you pay to watch the show, not record it or photograph it. Personally, I would give them a disc with some good photos on it, making sure that my name was clearly positioned so they could not crop it out. You do a good job and next time they visit they should call. You will get the added advantage of improving your portfolio for future work.

Me, I would take the free entry and the ability to take the photos, you may even be able to get a better position than the spectators..but it is only what I would do..

[redline]

free access for photos is just wrong.its taking away income from other photgraphers who would have to earn a living doing this stuff. if you do free gigs,and then decide to charge ppl who going to pay for something they are alreadly getting for free?

[Jonas]

Let us know how it pans out BBJ, whatever course you decide to take. I'd be interested to know just what they meant by "promotional" and how they justified not paying you a cent.

For my two cents: if they are putting on a show that is worth $55 a ticket, they would have a half decent advertising and promotional budget. They should be able to afford to pay an official photographer to capture the event.

At the very least, they will use this year's shots to promote next year's event. Could you handle seeing your photos splashed on posters and flyers all over town? Great for the portfolio but I think they're taking advantage of your love of photography.

[kipper]

It really depends on if you want to get more exposure. Covering an event like this would be good for you wouldn't it? I'd definately speak to a lawyer and come up with some sort of contract. While I wouldn't mind giving over the cd of the images, if they weren't making any money off of it (eg. dvd covers etc). You'd also want to ensure that you're credited for the shot where ever it is used.

[BBJ]

Thanks Jonas and Tony, i get the points but ok if they were going to stop people from taking pictures inwhich they have said nothing about on there posters i have seen today from the sponsors of this event so i dont think that is a problems. I have replied and saying i will give them 10 or so images to cover cost so we will see what happens.

In cases like the other events Tony mentioned that is fair enough and i respect that decision and if this was the case would be fine but i wanted some for the local paper for the motorsport section etc.. thats all as it is outdoors and i guess into the nite which i hate shooting so anyhow will see how it pans out, and well i suppose someone has to keep the money coming in for there drug and drinking binges and motel damge they leave behind.

[TonyH]

John,

maybe ask them for a letter after the event (or even beforehand incase they forget) to use as a reference..... you know the old " Thanks John, when it comes to the Crusties performing in South Australia there's only one photographer.... Thanks for your efforts"

Believe it or not this is how most businesses get their references, by asking for them.

At least then you could use their name on your web site etc. If it has sway with the kids and certain folk then it's not a wasted exercise doing the shots.

Have a great event!


Tony

[BBJ]

Tony, i sent them a reply expessing my thoughts and this is the email i got back.

I am disappointed to read that you are not jumping out of your skin after my original offer. To clarify things further, The East Coast Carnage Tour is a streamline version of the Capital City Tours we have conducted over the last 3 years. One of the costs that got cut out of the revised budget was photography. Last year on the Regional Outback Assault Tour we had photographers in 6 of the 7 (Mildura photographer didn’t show up) who volunteered their services and their images, free of charge.



We see this offer as much more than the cost of a ticket. The overall experience can be best summed up by our photographer in Dubbo, Terry Wilcher. Feel free to contact him at info@terrywilcher.com and he will testify how good his experience was, which included getting the shots he took at the Friday rehearsals signed by the guys on the Saturday and was “great practice”. I am not asking you to fully process your images once taken, we can do that here. We just require a disc of all your shots and we will decide which ones are best.



Mt Gambier is already buzzing with “Crusty Demons mania” and we do not want to miss out on getting images from the day. Hopefully we can come to an agreement.

Cheers

[TonyH]

Pure Arrogance on their part...... They've obviously discovered that talented part timers will give their time away for free to them so they have taken it out of the budget.

Geez I'd be happy to spend $10,000 on equipment and 30 years to gain skills so I could get a signed 8x10 (which I'd taken).

Mate if it's a worthwhile event pay the $50 and don't have the hassle.


Tony

[BBJ]

Yes Tony, i agree with you there and well i will see what happens and i will not be so eager to give my images away as they want me to. Well who can go get photos done and sighned etc.. My mate from 1 of the bikes shops here is a Kawasaki dealer and he said he seen them and they were ignorant when doing photo signatures, didnt even say hello to people just sighned thats it.
Anyhow i will stick to my guns for now and well maybe offer a good will getsure of 30 images.LOL

[Glen]

BBJ, I agree with TonyH, they are really taking advantage of talented amateurs.

I would make the decision on the basis if you get to sell any the images you take, that you believe are a saleable commodity for you making you enough to pay for your time, at the same time as they are using them, then I would consider it.

If feel the images are worth bugger all, and you just get to call yourself another Crusty Demon "volunteer" photog, I wouldn't bother.



ps If you do take them up, make sure you say that no PP is included (as per their email) and all pp work is at $100 ph. Then send them a disc full of NEFs

[Dug]

Draw up a contract

They have use of the images for personal use only, you retain copyright and all moral rights to the images.

If the images are to be used for commercial purposes then you are to be paid a negotiated amount for them depending on the usage.

If they are legit they will have no problem with this

If they are shonky they will run a mile.

[thaddeus]

You can only succeed at a negotiation if you have a BATNA: Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement. ie you need to be prepared to walk away. If you aren't, they have you by the camera-strap!

He hasn't made a counter-offer, so making a goodwill gesture is just like bidding against yourself at an auction. If I saw someone making that gesture, I'd know that I have the power because they want to do the deal more than I do.

Personally, I'd just reply "Yes, I also hope we can come to an agreement. I have offered you a compromise of 10 great promotional shots at zero cost to you. I look forward to your revised offer."

[darb]

an interesting read bbj ;

http://wheelsandwax.com/educate/articles/index.html

in particular in the "donts" column ; take from it what you will.

Don'ts

1. Give your work away for free - You are a business. Your photos are your product. When you go to pick up your favourite magazine, do they give it to you free? No. That's stupid. So why is it ok that you give your images away to magazines and gear companies? Do snowboard companies ever give you a board just to "get their foot in the door"? Has a goggle maker ever given you a pair of goggles in exchange that you are wearing their logo? If you don't get paid you are:

A) Making it impossible to make a living for yourself
B) Making it impossible for others in the industry to make a living
C) Destroying your fledgling reputation as a professional and damaging any chance of being respected for your work.

This includes trading images for lift passes, equipment or the infamous "photo credit" which does sweet fuck all for you.

[BBJ]

Thanks Guys, well i hope you all enjoy this read as i think it good to see just what some of these clowns try to swindle out of people. This was like an insult really as all i wanted was a few photos for my website and for the paper, ok it's all fun but also all work and to give it away is just nuts, anyhow will keep you posted on the saga and and good experiance in finding out what some rippoffs will try.

[shaunus]

bbj, your a lucky bugger to get a pass for that, but giving them a cd not sure on that.

i am heading up to waikerie this weekend for some local stuff stadium and have been asked for a cd of shots as well, from my point of view i'm happy to say give them 30 or so for their website just as long as i get credit for it, but i am not going to say heres a disc of 500 odd photos.

sometimes it might just be better to go general admission.

enjoy it i am very jealous