another attack on street photography.

Have your say on issues related to using a DSLR camera.

Moderator: Moderators

Forum rules
Please ensure that you have a meaningful location included in your profile. Please refer to the FAQ for details of what "meaningful" is.

another attack on street photography.

Postby Dug on Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:49 pm

Another attack on street photography. It makes for interesting reading..




Quote:
The Theater of the Street, the Subject of the Photograph

By PHILIP GEFTER
Published: March 19, 2006
IN 1999 Philip-Lorca diCorcia set up his camera on a tripod in Times Square, attached strobe lights to scaffolding across the street and, in the time-honored tradition of street photography, took a random series of pictures of strangers passing under his lights. The project continued for two years, culminating in an exhibition of photographs called "Heads" at Pace/MacGill Gallery in Chelsea. "Mr. diCorcia's pictures remind us, among other things, that we are each our own little universe of secrets, and vulnerable," Michael Kimmelman wrote, reviewing the show in The New York Times. "Good art makes you see the world differently, at least for a while, and after seeing Mr. diCorcia's new 'Heads,' for the next few hours you won't pass another person on the street in the same absent way." But not everyone was impressed.

When Erno Nussenzweig, an Orthodox Jew and retired diamond merchant from Union City, N.J., saw his picture last year in the exhibition catalog, he called his lawyer. And then he sued Mr. diCorcia and Pace for exhibiting and publishing the portrait without permission and profiting from it financially. The suit sought an injunction to halt sales and publication of the photograph, as well as $500,000 in compensatory damages and $1.5 million in punitive damages.

The suit was dismissed last month by a New York State Supreme Court judge who said that the photographer's right to artistic expression trumped the subject's privacy rights. But to many artists, the fact that the case went so far is significant.

The practice of street photography has a long tradition in the United States, with documentary and artistic strains, in big cities and small towns. Photographers usually must obtain permission to photograph on private property — including restaurants and hotel lobbies — but the freedom to photograph in public has long been taken for granted. And it has had a profound impact on the history of the medium. Without it, Lee Friedlander would not have roamed the streets of New York photographing strangers, and Walker Evans would never have produced his series of subway portraits in the 1940's.

Remarkably, this was the first case to directly challenge that right. Had it succeeded, "Subway Passenger, New York City," 1941, along with a vast number of other famous images taken on the sly, might no longer be able to be published or sold.

In his lawsuit, Mr. Nussenzweig argued that use of the photograph interfered with his constitutional right to practice his religion, which prohibits the use of graven images.

New York state right-to-privacy laws prohibit the unauthorized use of a person's likeness for commercial purposes, that is, for advertising or purposes of trade. But they do not apply if the likeness is considered art. So Mr. diCorcia's lawyer, Lawrence Barth, of Munger, Tolles & Olson in Los Angeles, focused on the context in which the photograph appeared. "What was at issue in this case was a type of use that hadn't been tested against First Amendment principles before — exhibition in a gallery; sale of limited edition prints; and publication in an artist's monograph," he said in an e-mail message. "We tried to sensitize the court to the broad sweep of important and now famous expression that would be chilled over the past century under the rule urged by Nussenzweig." Among others, he mentioned Alfred Eisenstaedt's famous image of a sailor kissing a nurse in Times Square on V-J Day in 1945, when Allied forces announced the surrender of Japan.

Several previous cases were also cited in Mr. diCorcia's defense. In Hoepker v. Kruger (2002), a woman who had been photographed by Thomas Hoepker, a German photographer, sued Barbara Kruger for using the picture in a piece called "It's a Small World ... Unless You Have to Clean It." A New York federal court judge ruled in Ms. Kruger's favor, holding that, under state law and the First Amendment, the woman's image was not used for purposes of trade, but rather in a work of art.

Also cited was a 1982 ruling in which the New York Court of Appeals sided with The New York Times in a suit brought by Clarence Arrington, whose photograph, taken without his knowledge while he was walking in the Wall Street area, appeared on the cover of The New York Times Magazine in 1978 to illustrate an article titled "The Black Middle Class: Making It." Mr. Arrington said the picture was published without his consent to represent a story he didn't agree with. The New York Court of Appeals held that The Times's First Amendment rights trumped Mr. Arrington's privacy rights.

In an affidavit submitted to the court on Mr. diCorcia's behalf, Peter Galassi, chief curator of photography at the Museum of Modern Art, said Mr. diCorcia's "Heads" fit into a tradition of street photography well defined by artists ranging from Alfred Stieglitz and Henri Cartier-Bresson to Robert Frank and Garry Winogrand. "If the law were to forbid artists to exhibit and sell photographs made in public places without the consent of all who might appear in those photographs," Mr. Galassi wrote, "then artistic expression in the field of photography would suffer drastically. If such a ban were projected retroactively, it would rob the public of one of the most valuable traditions of our cultural inheritance."

Neale M. Albert, of Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison, who represented Pace/MacGill, said the case surprised him: "I have always believed that the so-called street photographers do not need releases for art purposes. In over 30 years of representing photographers, this is the first time a person has raised a complaint against one of my clients by reason of such a photograph."

State Supreme Court Justice Judith J. Gische rejected Mr. Nussenzweig's claim that his privacy had been violated, ruling on First Amendment grounds that the possibility of such a photograph is simply the price every person must be prepared to pay for a society in which information and opinion freely flow. And she wrote in her decision that the photograph was indeed a work of art. "Defendant diCorcia has demonstrated his general reputation as a photographic artist in the international artistic community," she wrote.

But she indirectly suggested that other cases might be more challenging. "Even while recognizing art as exempted from the reach of New York's privacy laws, the problem of sorting out what may or may not legally be art remains a difficult one," she wrote. As for the religious claims, she said: "Clearly, plaintiff finds the use of the photograph bearing his likeness deeply and spiritually offensive. While sensitive to plaintiff's distress, it is not redressable in the courts of civil law."

Mr. diCorcia, whose book of photographs "Storybook Life" was published in 2004, said that in setting up his camera in Times Square in 1999: "I never really questioned the legality of what I was doing. I had been told by numerous editors I had worked for that it was legal. There is no way the images could have been made with the knowledge and cooperation of the subjects. The mutual exclusivity that conflict or tension, is part of what gives the work whatever quality it has."

Mr. Nussenzweig is appealing. Last month his lawyer Jay Goldberg told The New York Law Journal that his client "has lost control over his own image."

"It's a terrible invasion to me," Mr. Goldberg said. "The last thing a person has is his own dignity."

Photography professionals are watching — and claiming equally high moral stakes. Should the case proceed, said Howard Greenberg, of Howard Greenberg Gallery in New York, "it would be a terrible thing, a travesty to those of us who have been educated and illuminated by great street photography of the past and, hopefully, the future, too."
User avatar
Dug
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1082
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:58 pm
Location: maroochydore Q

Postby Nnnnsic on Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:03 pm

I heard about this several months ago.
Producer & Editor @ GadgetGuy.com.au
Contributor for fine magazines such as PC Authority and Popular Science.
User avatar
Nnnnsic
I'm a jazz singer... so I know what I'm doing
 
Posts: 7770
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2004 12:29 am
Location: Cubicle No. 42... somewhere in Bondi, NSW

Postby Dug on Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:13 pm

sorry if I have posted something that is old news
User avatar
Dug
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1082
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:58 pm
Location: maroochydore Q

Postby Alpha_7 on Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:03 am

Was news to me Dug, so thanks for bring it to my attention.
User avatar
Alpha_7
Senior Member
 
Posts: 7259
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:19 pm
Location: Mortdale - Sydney - Nikon D700, x-D200, Leica, G9

Postby Grev on Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:12 am

I think "common sense" prevailed this time.
Blog: http://grevgrev.blogspot.com
Deviantart: http://grebbin.deviantart.com

Nikon: D700 / D70 / AiS 28mm f2 / AiS 35mm f1.4 / AiS 50mm f1.2 / AiS 180mm f2.8 ED / AFD 85mm f1.4 / Sigma 50mm f1.4 / Sigma 24-70 f2.8 macro / Mamiya 80mm f1.9 x2 /Mamiya 120mm f4 macro
User avatar
Grev
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1025
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: 4109, Brisbane.

Postby Oneputt on Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:17 am

What concerns me about this story is the "art" part of the argument and the photographers standing.

If it were a unknown photographer, would the outcome have been different?
"The good thing about meditation is that it makes doing nothing respectable"

D3 - http://www.oneputtphotographics.com
User avatar
Oneputt
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3174
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:58 pm
Location: Stuck in traffic Maroochydore.

Postby Frankenstein on Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:33 am

Oneputt wrote:What concerns me about this story is the "art" part of the argument and the photographers standing.

If it were a unknown photographer, would the outcome have been different?


Good point - and that argument would come only after going to court, with all the costs associated with that. Sometimes I really do worry about the future of amateur photography - will we all be destined to only be allowed to take shots of flowers in our own back gardens? :(

Frank
My photo gallery: http://www.frankalvaro.net
>>>> Nikon D300...Nikon 18-200 VR...Sigma 10-20...Tamron 90mm macro <<<<
"I've got an idea--an idea so smart that my head would explode if I even began to know what I'm talking about. " Peter Griffin
User avatar
Frankenstein
Senior Member
 
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:23 pm
Location: Ruse (Sydney)

Postby Dug on Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:04 am

Frankenstein wrote:
Oneputt wrote:What concerns me about this story is the "art" part of the argument and the photographers standing.

If it were a unknown photographer, would the outcome have been different?


Good point - and that argument would come only after going to court, with all the costs associated with that. Sometimes I really do worry about the future of amateur photography - will we all be destined to only be allowed to take shots of flowers in our own back gardens? :(

Frank



you pervert Frank Photographing flowers in their beds!!!

you should be locked up with all the other photographers :shock: :D :shock: :D :shock: :D
User avatar
Dug
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1082
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:58 pm
Location: maroochydore Q

Postby whiz on Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:13 am

I don't think that this is an attack on photography, per se, but it's a lesson on getting model releases.
The photo of the jewish guy is around on the web somewhere. I read about it a few months ago.
People put way too much rubbish in signature blocks.


Image
whiz
Member
 
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:28 pm
Location: Richardson, Canberra

Postby Big Red on Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:15 am

it really opens up a can of worms ...
if a womans dress blows up in the wind while you are taking a "general area" pic ...
is there a coloured person in the pic ...
is there kids in the pic ...
is there retarded people in the pic ...
are you a professional photographer ...
are you an artist ...


etc etc etc.

I vote for "if its in a public place you should expect to be seen or photographed "

is there really much difference to being seen picking your nose or getting photographed picking your nose in a public place?

i guess a lot comes down to the photographer being nice and not publishing things which may cause embarrassment.
User avatar
Big Red
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2520
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:40 pm
Location: Jacobs Well Qld ... mossie capital of the world

Postby whiz on Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:59 am

Big Red wrote:I vote for "if its in a public place you should expect to be seen or photographed "


You don't have to vote.
In Australia, it's the interpretation of the law that you have no rights NOT to be photographed if you're in public.
People put way too much rubbish in signature blocks.


Image
whiz
Member
 
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:28 pm
Location: Richardson, Canberra

Postby Killakoala on Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:11 pm

I reckon the bloke was just trying to get some money off the photographer. Not really a 'moral' issue here, but one of greed. I'm sure the judge saw it that way too.

1.5 million for punitive damages. What a crock of shit.
Steve.
|D700| D2H | F5 | 70-200VR | 85 1.4 | 50 1.4 | 28-70 | 10.5 | 12-24 | SB800 |
Website-> http://www.stevekilburn.com
Leeds United for promotion in 2014 - Hurrah!!!
User avatar
Killakoala
Senior Member
 
Posts: 5398
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:31 pm
Location: Southland NZ

Postby gstark on Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:43 pm

Killakoala wrote:I reckon the bloke was just trying to get some money off the photographer. Not really a 'moral' issue here, but one of greed. I'm sure the judge saw it that way too.

1.5 million for punitive damages. What a crock of shit.


Exactly.
g.
Gary Stark
Nikon, Canon, Bronica .... stuff
The people who want English to be the official language of the United States are uncomfortable with their leaders being fluent in it - US Pres. Bartlet
User avatar
gstark
Site Admin
 
Posts: 22918
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:41 pm
Location: Bondi, NSW

Postby Grev on Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:35 am

So do you guys think his claim about his religion being the case is valid?
Blog: http://grevgrev.blogspot.com
Deviantart: http://grebbin.deviantart.com

Nikon: D700 / D70 / AiS 28mm f2 / AiS 35mm f1.4 / AiS 50mm f1.2 / AiS 180mm f2.8 ED / AFD 85mm f1.4 / Sigma 50mm f1.4 / Sigma 24-70 f2.8 macro / Mamiya 80mm f1.9 x2 /Mamiya 120mm f4 macro
User avatar
Grev
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1025
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: 4109, Brisbane.

Postby gstark on Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:26 am

Grev wrote:So do you guys think his claim about his religion being the case is valid?


About as valid as WMD.
g.
Gary Stark
Nikon, Canon, Bronica .... stuff
The people who want English to be the official language of the United States are uncomfortable with their leaders being fluent in it - US Pres. Bartlet
User avatar
gstark
Site Admin
 
Posts: 22918
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:41 pm
Location: Bondi, NSW

Postby thaddeus on Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:45 am

I can't see what the issue is
(a) It's in the USA
(b) The case was rejected
(c) The article is not sourced, so it's not clear whether the source is reliable
User avatar
thaddeus
Member
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:04 pm
Location: Sydney

Postby Oneputt on Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:58 am

thaddeus - as we seem to follow the lead of the USA in many things, it is of interest. Note I said interest, not concern.
"The good thing about meditation is that it makes doing nothing respectable"

D3 - http://www.oneputtphotographics.com
User avatar
Oneputt
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3174
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:58 pm
Location: Stuck in traffic Maroochydore.

Postby Matt. K on Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:35 am

Oneputt
The law does not state you have to be a famous artist! If you decide to make art then it is art. It's that simple.
Regards

Matt. K
User avatar
Matt. K
Former Outstanding Member Of The Year and KM
 
Posts: 9981
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 7:12 pm
Location: North Nowra

Postby Oneputt on Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:40 am

Matt I was merely wondering what the outcome would have been if it had been an unknown standing before the judge trying to explain that he was an artist and not a voyeur :wink:
"The good thing about meditation is that it makes doing nothing respectable"

D3 - http://www.oneputtphotographics.com
User avatar
Oneputt
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3174
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:58 pm
Location: Stuck in traffic Maroochydore.

Postby cameraguy21773 on Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:49 am

gstark wrote:
Killakoala wrote:I reckon the bloke was just trying to get some money off the photographer. Not really a 'moral' issue here, but one of greed. I'm sure the judge saw it that way too.

1.5 million for punitive damages. What a crock of shit.


Exactly.


It really bothers me that we (the US) have become such a litigious society. I have been chased away from public/government locations occasionaly because my equipment "looks professional and I might profit from taking pictures there".
regards
Mike Parker
Frederick, MD

Take Only Pictures, Leave Only Footprints
User avatar
cameraguy21773
Member
 
Posts: 214
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:16 am
Location: Frederick, Maryland USA - D2H, D1x (2), D70

Postby Greg B on Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:00 am

This is more about litigation and money than anything else, as posters above have noted in different ways.

Fortunately, the Judge apparently determined that the cause was without foundation, but the leap to litigate is one more thing that I sincerely hope Australia doesn't embrace as has been the case in the USA.

(One of my favourites was the woman who sued McDonalds because the hot coffee was hot, so that the plastic lid on many take away coffees now has a warning notice to the effect that the contents are hot. Holy crap.)
Greg - - - - D200 etc

Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
User avatar
Greg B
Moderator
 
Posts: 5938
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:14 pm
Location: Surrey Hills, Melbourne

Postby moz on Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:02 am

cameraguy21773 wrote:I have been chased away from public/government locations occasionaly because my equipment "looks professional and I might profit from taking pictures there".


Those stories bother me, I have to admit. Although I do think (sarcastically) "and heaven forbid anyone in the US make a profit from publicly owned property". But the idea that the camera is a threat all by itself is just really annoying, especially if you do a bit of street photography.
http://www.moz.net.nz
have bicycle, will go to Critical Mass
User avatar
moz
Senior Member
 
Posts: 937
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:50 pm
Location: Coburg, Melbun.

Postby RICPIC on Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:04 am

Grev wrote:So do you guys think his claim about his religion being the case is valid?


if he's so concerned about being photographed, he shouldn't go onto the street. the pictures are a record of a public scene, does he feel violated if people look or stare at him?
D200, 12-24DX, 28-70/2.8, 80-200/2.8, 105M/2.8, SB800, Rollei 2.8F
User avatar
RICPIC
Newbie
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:54 am
Location: randwick, sydney

Postby Mitchell on Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:42 pm

The issue here seems to be someone profiting from someone elses image. This guy presumably hasn't brought actions against all the companies that have his image on closed circuit television...

What concerns me about this story is the "art" part of the argument and the photographers standing.

If it were a unknown photographer, would the outcome have been different?


The privacy laws are only a problem if you are profiting from the images - an unknown photographer would more than likely not be profiting from these images, therefore would be protected. If they were profiting then they probably are also displaying their work- both good arguments that it is art and again would be safe from damages.
I think this is a good result and is unlikely to herald further problems for amateurs wandering the streets.

One of my favourites was the woman who sued McDonalds because the hot coffee was hot


This case was a bit of a meeja beat up. The woman was awarded millions in compensation - not because of her injuries, but because of punitive action toward Maccas.
The restaurant had about 5 previous cases where people had serious burns from the coffee, and on multiple occasions were told by a court to decrease the temperature of the coffee. They didn't, and finally the court gave a punishment the profit on coffee alone over a set time period. This was millions of $ and the lady who brought the case just happened to get lucky, and cleaned up...
User avatar
Mitchell
Member
 
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:16 am
Location: Île Saint Louis, Paris

Postby ozczecho on Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:25 pm

Mitchell wrote:This case was a bit of a meeja beat up. The woman was awarded millions in compensation - not because of her injuries, but because of punitive action toward Maccas.
The restaurant had about 5 previous cases where people had serious burns from the coffee, and on multiple occasions were told by a court to decrease the temperature of the coffee. They didn't, and finally the court gave a punishment the profit on coffee alone over a set time period. This was millions of $ and the lady who brought the case just happened to get lucky, and cleaned up...


Well I like my coffee hot. So if Maccas give me a cold coffee I'll be cranky as hell.

I am glad that in this case sanity provailed, but I reckon (and fear) that sooner rather than later a case will be lost and futher rights of photogs will be eroded.
User avatar
ozczecho
Senior Member
 
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:41 pm
Location: Beecroft, Sydney

Postby Matt. K on Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:11 am

Oneputt
There is no difference between an artist and a voyeur! We just made it respectable! :D :D
Regards

Matt. K
User avatar
Matt. K
Former Outstanding Member Of The Year and KM
 
Posts: 9981
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 7:12 pm
Location: North Nowra

Postby nito on Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:17 am

gstark wrote:
Grev wrote:So do you guys think his claim about his religion being the case is valid?


About as valid as WMD.


More like photograph of mass destruction (PMD).
i,e, you cheating on your partner and a street photographer captures the moment.
nito
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1109
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 11:24 am
Location: Gladesville, NSW


Return to General Discussion

cron