D 70 Modes...let's look deeply

[Matt. K]

Something Gary said to me got me thinking about the different shooting modes on the D70. I now suspect that the P mode/S mode and A mode are if fact all the same mode. The only thing that changes is which dial you spin. Or am I missing something here?

[mudder]

G'day,
I just tried with mine...
A mode I can only adjust aperture (front dial)
S mode I can only adjust shutter (back dial)
P mode I can adjust either

I think... It's late...

Cheers,
Mudder

[Onyx]

In P mode, it seems I have to spin the main command dial the other way compared to A mode to have the change in aperture.


In other news, portrait mode not only favours wider apertures, but reduces contrast, sharpening, and tunes in negative hue (not sure of actual amount). I'm beginning to think I should start experimenting with the idiot modes, since I paid for them already...

[atencati]

Onyx, I have used th idiot modes several times of late. Not for actual shooting , but for info. When I have a tough shot, I will spin through the dial and see what the camera suggests for its various "Idiot"  modes. It has helped me resolve several thinking errors. Kind of like having an online help. Still can't resolve myself to giving over control to the camera however.

Andy

[gstark]

Onyx,

In P mode, it seems I have to spin the main command dial the other way compared to A mode to have the change in aperture.


In other news, portrait mode not only favours wider apertures, but reduces contrast, sharpening, and tunes in negative hue (not sure of actual amount). I'm beginning to think I should start experimenting with the idiot modes, since I paid for them already...

Portrait mode?

Are you referring to P mode, or one of the PHD modes?

P mode defaults to fast shutter speeds (and therefore wider apertures) in order to maintain hand holdability of the camera.

[Matt. K]

I am refering to the Program mode. I have just given it a test and it selected 1/500 at F/9. I put the camera into S mode and spun the dial until 1/500 came up and the camera chose f/9 as the fstop. I put it into A mode and spun the dial unti f/9 came up and the camera had chosen 1/500 as the sutter speed.
So why use A or S mode at all?

I suspect all 3 are the same mode, just reached in a different way.

[atencati]

I am refering to the Program mode. I have just given it a test and it selected 1/500 at F/9. I put the camera into S mode and spun the dial until 1/500 came up and the camera chose f/9 as the fstop. I put it into A mode and spun the dial unti f/9 came up and the camera had chosen 1/500 as the sutter speed.
So why use A or S mode at all?

I suspect all 3 are the same mode, just reached in a different way.

AHhhh, now I understand the question. For every aperture(A) there is a corresponding shutter(S) speed relevant to the ISO setting. Each stop faster (wider) will decrease shutter speed and vise-versa. If you change the iso setting the A/S setting will change. Additionally, if you change lighting, the A vs S will also change. IE, you go from dark scene to light scene in A mode, S will get faster ie: 1/250 vs 1/500. In S mode, you set the shutter speed and the A will correspond according to the amount of light. Again, from dark to light at same S speed, A will get faster F5.6 to 2.8.

I hink your confusion comes from metering the same scene instead of differently lighted scenes. If you change the light you will see different settings. This is how DOF is controlled.

Or maybe I'm way off........


Andy

[gstark]

Andy,

I suspect all 3 are the same mode, just reached in a different way.

You've got it, and as Andy suggests, Matt, I'm wondering how it would work were you to be metering some different scenes?

We need to remember though that the exposure selected by the camera is only ever a suggested exposure (which we usually might accept) but we are always free to overrride with either compensation settings, or by switching to manual.

And Matt, yes, I understood that you were referring to the proram mode; Onyx however mentioned a "Portrait" mode, and I was wondering whether he was also referring to the "P" mode, or else perhaps to one of the preset PHD modes on the camera.

[Matt. K]

I don't think I have put my question very well. I understand that those figures change if the lighting changes..(I really do). My point is...essentially the P mode, A mode and S mode all do exactly the same thing...therefore why have 3 modes? I think the camera uses the same mode for P/A/and S ???

[pippin88]

I don't think I have put my question very well. I understand that those figures change if the lighting changes..(I really do). My point is...essentially the P mode, A mode and S mode all do exactly the same thing...therefore why have 3 modes? I think the camera uses the same mode for P/A/and S ???

It's very simply really.

For some shots, depth of field control is desired, therefore the use of A mode.
For other shots, shutter speed control is desired (waterfall shots etc), therefore the use of S mode.

Though I havent actually used P mode.

When Onyx says portrait mode, he refers to the preprogrammed mode, indicated by the woman (setting after Auto mode). Surely before you guys can be disdainfull of the "dummy" modes, you need to know that they actually exist and what they do.

[gstark]

Matt,

have a look at page 76 of the Good Book, and in particular the comments regarding auto ISO with P and A modes. Might setting Auto-ISO on change some of the values you see, especially in low-light situations?

[MCWB]

For some shots, depth of field control is desired, therefore the use of A mode.
For other shots, shutter speed control is desired (waterfall shots etc), therefore the use of S mode.

Though I havent actually used P mode.

What Matt's getting at though is that you get the same exposure with P, A and S, so what does it matter which you use? I think you're correct Matt, with one slight caveat. In terms of shooting identical scenes, if you had 3 bodies (with your extra 2 hehe ) in P, A and S modes, I'm sure they would give you identical exposures, i.e. there's no difference in metering or in-camera processing between the three. You're correct in saying that if P mode returns 1/500 at f/8, so will A and S when you choose f/8 and 1/500s respectively.

Your postulate is then that you can do everything in P mode, so why have A and S? For exposures within the normal limits of the camera without specific limitations then I agree, but when you start pushing the limits of A) handheld (or desired) shutter speed and B) maximum/minimum aperture (i.e. getting into exposure compensation and/or changing ISO) then A and S become more useful.

The thing S and A is that your shutter speed/aperture is constant unless you change it, whereas P changes each time you meter a different scene. Say you're photographing fast-moving cars and you want to take all your pictures at 1/1000s or greater, if P mode constantly suggests 1/250 f/5.6 then you'll have to adjust the command dial each time you meter, whereas if you had it fixed at 1/1000 in S you wouldn't have to adjust it. You would still have to adjust exposure compensation and/or shoot in RAW and post-process later for the S case, but in this case a sharp, underexposed pic at 1/1000 might be a keeper after post-processing, whereas the blurry 1/250 pic will never be a keeper, so you'll have to adjust the command dial if you're shooting in P, but not in S.

[gstark]

When Onyx says portrait mode, he refers to the preprogrammed mode, indicated by the woman (setting after Auto mode).

That was my question. I don't see a "woman" on my selection dial though. None of the icons, at least, look anything a "woman" to me.

Surely before you guys can be disdainfull of the "dummy" modes, you need to know that they actually exist and what they do.

Not at all. We can be arrogant and ignorant at the same time, can't we?
Where's the fun in talking about what we know, when we actually know what we're talking about?

[pippin88]

When Onyx says portrait mode, he refers to the preprogrammed mode, indicated by the woman (setting after Auto mode).

That was my question. I don't see a "woman" on my selection dial though. None of the icons, at least, look anything a "woman" to me.

Surely before you guys can be disdainfull of the "dummy" modes, you need to know that they actually exist and what they do.

Not at all. We can be arrogant and ignorant at the same time, can't we?
Where's the fun in talking about what we know, when we actually know what we're talking about?

There is an icon of a head with a hat on it. You can tell it's a woman by the type of hat (it's a stereotypical portrait pose / style)

MCWB: I'm aware that exposure would be the same, but I was getting at what you explained. The different modes allow you to control / fix the thing you want for a series of shots, while getting an appropriate exposure. P will get you the same exposure, but you may either have to settle for a less than desirable shot (ie your shutter speed example) or dial in for every shot.

[MCWB]

That was my question. I don't see a "woman" on my selection dial though. None of the icons, at least, look anything a "woman" to me.

The one next to auto (not P) looks like a person with a hat on, I presumed female. It's a bit like those psychoanalysis pictures isn't it, 'what do you see in this picture'.

[Matt. K]

Bravo MCWB!!!!
You have nailed it exactly on the head! In P mode my combination would change if the lighting was altered...and I would have to spin the dial to get back to my prefered shutter speed or F/stop! In A or S my prefered priority, (be it shutter or F/stop) would remain constant.

Now how simple was that?

Of course....if I was working in a studio or in fairly constant lighting, then it would make no difference whatsoever.

[Onyx]

To clarify, my orig post P meant Program mode. That's why there was a paragraph break and a "in other news" headlining it when I referred to the totally different portrait mode (part of the idiot modes™ collection).

I still don't grasp why MattK says A, S and P are all the same. Rotate the dial in Program mode and rotate the dial in Aperture mode, to change aperture. One requires completely opposite rotation of the other to achieve the same function. How different can you get?

The similarity of aperture and shutter speeds automatically calculated in the three modes merely reflects the same metered readings (as it should). Things start to get interesting however when one dials in exposure compensation. In Aperture priority mode, the camera obviously holds aperture constant as the user selected and varies shutter speed. In shutter priority mode, the camera holds shutter speed constant and the aperture varies. In Program mode... which parameter would you expect the camera to alter first?

That's right - a combination of both! But biased towards changing aperture. Thus, I conclude that A, S and P modes are not the same.

[goodrich62]

I think they are very different. I mostly use S or A. S for critters and distance where DOF is not critical but getting the speed is important, A for macro or close work where DOF is important.
I agree they may come up with the same settings either way but do you want the settings based on speed or DOF.
It mat be digital but it is still based on the rules you can't say I want the ISO to be 200 the Apature 32 and Speed 1000 and by the way the light stinks and I have cheap glass:shock:
The S and A Modes are "Priorities" if you want to force the issue you have to go the dreaded "M" mode I'm not ready for that yet

[timbo]

While the P mode may seem to do the same job as A or S in many ways, Thom Hogan in his 'Complete Guide to the D70' points out something very interesting (and for those of us using or lusting for fast lenses, it's a shocker) on p302:
"One thing that catches a number of D70 users unaware is that the Program exposure mode (and all the special Scene exposure modes) limits apertures that can be used with flash based upon ISO value. And given the relatively high ISO values of the D70 and fast apertures of most pro lenses, you're quite likely to bump up against this limitation at some point..."
[table follows showing aperture limitations which I can't legally distribute without his permission. It increases across the full ISO range from f/2.8 (internal flash) & f/5.6 (external) @ ISO 200 to f/4.8 (int) & f/9.5 (Ext) @ ISO 1600]
"Yes, that table means what you think it does: if you set Program exposure mode using flash, those fancy wide apertures of your expensive lenses won't ever be used."

Food for thought indeed, Onyx!

[Matt. K]

Hi Onyx
If you and I are standing in a field shooting a football match...and you are in S mode and have chosen, say 1/1000 and the camera has chosen f/4....and I am in P mode and spin the dial until my shutter speed indicates 1/1000 then the f/stop indicated will be f/4! So how different is that? (presumes same ISO set on both cameras).
I will concede James Bond's post that if the light level change then I will have to respin the dial...but...hey...big deal!

Now...if you dial in -0.7 exposure compensation and I do the same....well...I spin the dial until I'm back at 1/1000 sec and we are both still shooting at the same EV value. How different is that?

Nikon would have served us better by having the P mode only, but giving us the option of locking the shutter speed or the F/stop. The other 2 modes would then not be required.
Simplify.

[pippin88]

That would actually be more complex Matt. Having to fiddle around with multiple button presses to lock to one factor, rather than just a twiddle of the mode wheel.

[Onyx]

Hi Onyx
....Now...if you dial in -0.7 exposure compensation and I do the same....well...I spin the dial until I'm back at 1/1000 sec and we are both still shooting at the same EV value. How different is that?

I still think you're basing your similarities of the modes based on the fact that they give the same metered readings. They should. In every mode the camera should give the same exposure values.

The hypothetical is more interesting: if you and I were shooting 1/1000th at f/4. Dialing in -0.7EV in S mode means 1/1000th and f/5. In P mode, it defaults to 1/1250th and f/4.5 by default. The fact that you have to click one notch of the command dial to the left to get back 1/1000th is evidence that P is not the same as S, is not the same as A...