Nikon D200 vs. Canon EOS 5D at digitalcamerainfo.com

[moz]

http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Nikon-D200-vs-Canon-EOS-5D-Head-to-Head-Review-.htm

Is this the right forum? (or is this even an appropriate link?)

The review itself is probably fairly balanced, since I thought it was biased against the Canon Summary is that above ISO 400 you want the Canon, but it's easier to actually use the Nikon.

Oddly they kept going on about the turn-on complexity of the Canon when I find that I rarely use the switch unless I'm putting the camera away for the day - the power-save mode works just fine.

[kipper]

Something I have envied after watching NSN for a long time now is how good high ISO seems to be on Canons. Along with that and the fact that they have IS on a lot of their lenses, especially the big primes is one of the reasons that I'll always be considering jumping ship.

[DionM]

Oddly they kept going on about the turn-on complexity of the Canon when I find that I rarely use the switch unless I'm putting the camera away for the day - the power-save mode works just fine.

Must say I am the same - I only turn it "off" when changing batteries.

[petal666]

- Includes pop-up flash

Are they being serious? Do they expect people at this level to be using onboard flash?

[stubbsy]

- Includes pop-up flash

Are they being serious? Do they expect people at this level to be using onboard flash?

Petal

Absolutely

I can't count the times I've used the pop up flash on my D70 and if I had a D200 I'd use it there too. It's especially useful for fill flash during the day and beats having to get out and connect my speedlite. Plus of course it is also used to control speedlites set up in slave mode. Of course it's no replacement for a speedlite and that's neede too. Just there are times when it's sufficient.

[Alpha_7]

Petal at what level ? (I use pop up flash).

[Glen]

Do you mean at the $2.5k pricepoint or the $5k pricepoint?

I think that is just the point, having an onboard flash allows you to use it as the commander for all your remote wireless flashes, without having to buy a flash just for triggering them. I naturally assumed the Canon system works the same way?

On a Nikon that is about a $500 saving.

[DionM]

Do you mean at the $2.5k pricepoint or the $5k pricepoint?

I think that is just the point, having an onboard flash allows you to use it as the commander for all your remote wireless flashes, without having to buy a flash just for triggering them. I naturally assumed the Canon system works the same way?

On a Nikon that is about a $500 saving.

Canon does not use the flash firing to trigger slaves - you need to buy an external speedlight or IR transmitter.

Inbuilt flash is useless to me. I'd rather go without than use it. For me, using it with my 17-40 results in a big shadow from the hood on the 17-40, and using it with my 70-200 is pointless as it reach is not powerful enough. So unless I am shooting with some tiny kit lens, its unusable.

I agree with Petal - get rid of the pop up flash altogether. If you want a portable flash, buy a compact external unit.

[Nnnnsic]

I disagree strongly.

I think it's useful for situations where you don't want to carry a larger pack with you and you just need a small amount of flash.

There's no reason to carry a flash pack with you if you only need what the in-built can give you.

[birddog114]

Do you mean at the $2.5k pricepoint or the $5k pricepoint?

I think that is just the point, having an onboard flash allows you to use it as the commander for all your remote wireless flashes, without having to buy a flash just for triggering them. I naturally assumed the Canon system works the same way?

On a Nikon that is about a $500 saving.

Canon does not use the flash firing to trigger slaves - you need to buy an external speedlight or IR transmitter.

Inbuilt flash is useless to me. I'd rather go without than use it. For me, using it with my 17-40 results in a big shadow from the hood on the 17-40, and using it with my 70-200 is pointless as it reach is not powerful enough. So unless I am shooting with some tiny kit lens, its unusable.

I agree with Petal - get rid of the pop up flash altogether. If you want a portable flash, buy a compact external unit.

The point here is the inbuilt flash on Nikon system is with capability of a flash commander to control the remote flashes and Canon does not have it.

[Alpha_7]

Canon does not use the flash firing to trigger slaves - you need to buy an external speedlight or IR transmitter.

With the D70 you don't need to buy anything, it's built in.

Inbuilt flash is useless to me.

Just because it's useless to you, doesn't mean others can't and do find a use for it. Sometimes the use of an external flash is unsuitable or prohibited, atleast with onboard flash you can shed some light on the subject.

[DaveB]

I've used the inbuilt flash only a couple of times, and only because I didn't have an external flash with me. Unfortunately as Dion mentioned the popup flash is obscured by most of my lenses, but if I'm using it for fill I can sometimes get away with just removing the lens hood. Once I ended up using the camera upside down (I had a portrait grip on it so it wasn't very awkward) so that the shadow at the "bottom" of the frame was actually in the sky...

For someone shooting with the cheaper lenses with 58mm-ish filter threads it might be useful, but all of mine are 72mm or 77mm (plus hood). Certainly it's got better with the 350D/20D/30D over the older bodies, but still it's an issue if I wanted to use the pop-up.

So really I wouldn't miss not having a pop-up flash. The only reason for me to be interested in it was if Canon *did* implement wireless master control in the camera body (I was hoping this was going to come with the 30D, but no ). Otherwise it's a non-issue!

[petal666]

I also think that due to the 5D have a full frame mirror, adding an in-built flash would make a very big bump on top of the camera. Same as why the 1D series cameras don't have it.

I guess I find it a non issue is because I take my speedlite every where and it is pretty much always on my camera.

[Antsl]

Canon are quite capable of building a flash into the head of the 5D if they were to chose to do so; they have proven the point numerous times before with all the consumer film SLR cameras that they have built in recent years. The Canon 5D though is one of the most conservative cameras that Canon have made in a long time and my comments in reviews to that effect actually got me in the bad books with Canon in Australia. The 5D has a great sensor on it however if you are going to get the best out of it you need to drive it manually ever step of the way. It is a little like owning an old Rolls Royce without power steering.

By comparison the D200 is out there on its own, it rocks. Although I initially found it a little awkard owning a prosumer camera with a built in flash (my F100s don't have one) the built-in flash is in fact useful on the odd occasions that I need to use it. I have used it as a commander ona few occasions when I have not been using my location lights and it has proved very useful and effective. The functionallity of the camera is fantastic and it can be relied on to produce good results in most situations. My only advice on the D200 is buy an extra battery for yourself and take control of the image settings, particularly the contrat control. If I was not entrenched in Nikon I would consider buying the 5D if it suited my needs, I am happy with the D200 for the moment though. I just hope they start arriving in the country soon for the sake of everyone who is hanging out for one!

[birddog114]

I am happy with the D200 for the moment though. I just hope they start arriving in the country soon for the sake of everyone who is hanging out for one!

I hope it'll be in the Easter Show bag.

[gstark]

I also think that due to the 5D have a full frame mirror,

I would doubt that the mirror size has anything to do with it. More likely it's a featureset/proce compromise.

All they need to do for a flash is decide upon the angle of view they want it to cover, along with an appropriate guide number, and then engineer that into the body.

Mirror/sensor size is largely irrelevant.

[DionM]

Just because it's useless to you, doesn't mean others can't and do find a use for it. Sometimes the use of an external flash is unsuitable or prohibited, atleast with onboard flash you can shed some light on the subject.

That's why I qualified my statement with descriptions of my lenses Pop-up flash is useless with big diameter lenses (as DaveB mentioned).

If I think I'm going to need my flash, I take my 580EX. If I don't think I will need it, I don't take it. If I get caught out, well (a) its my own stupid fault (b) pop up flash doesn't have very nice look about it anyway and (c) I'll just bump the ISO to compensate

[Glen]

Personally, if I could have pop up flash for an extra $50 on either the D2X or 5D I would. Handy when you need, can control remotes on some brands and it's not as if there is any downside to it like increased weight, etc

[mR_CaESaR]

Just because it's useless to you, doesn't mean others can't and do find a use for it. Sometimes the use of an external flash is unsuitable or prohibited, atleast with onboard flash you can shed some light on the subject.

That's why I qualified my statement with descriptions of my lenses Pop-up flash is useless with big diameter lenses (as DaveB mentioned).

If I think I'm going to need my flash, I take my 580EX. If I don't think I will need it, I don't take it. If I get caught out, well (a) its my own stupid fault (b) pop up flash doesn't have very nice look about it anyway and (c) I'll just bump the ISO to compensate

agreed, 90% of the time i shoot with a larger lens that will cause shadowing with the internal flash, i also prefer to bounce my flash as a result i barely use the pop up flash. The strobing of the pop is also annoying, i blind my subjects when that happens, so now, its just 580EX or nothing at all, if i want to use natural light, i'll just pop the 50mm on and away i go

[Alpha_7]

Just because it's useless to you, doesn't mean others can't and do find a use for it. Sometimes the use of an external flash is unsuitable or prohibited, atleast with onboard flash you can shed some light on the subject.

That's why I qualified my statement with descriptions of my lenses Pop-up flash is useless with big diameter lenses (as DaveB mentioned).

Well the beauty of a SLR camera is you can change lenses, so while it doesn't work for your larger diameter lenses, it works quite fine with Joe and Mary's kit lens, or 50mm 1.4
I have some big diameter lens so I can relate to the issues you and Dave mention, but me and certainly a number of other camera users wouldn't have big lenses, or the extra $500 bucks for an external lenses, for them the pop flash it quite adequate.

[Glen]

Craig you are right, the pop up manages to peer over my 45P OK

[Paul]

Craig you are right, the pop up manages to peer over my 45P OK

What wouldn't!

[DionM]

Well the beauty of a SLR camera is you can change lenses, so while it doesn't work for your larger diameter lenses, it works quite fine with Joe and Mary's kit lens, or 50mm 1.4

It should be illegal to use a camera the calibre of a 5D with a kit lens

I have some big diameter lens so I can relate to the issues you and Dave mention, but me and certainly a number of other camera users wouldn't have big lenses, or the extra $500 bucks for an external lenses, for them the pop flash it quite adequate.

Again, it should be illegal to use a 5D without good glass

[DaveB]

The strobing of the pop is also annoying, i blind my subjects when that happens

You do know you can turn that AF-assist off through a custom function don't you? Set it to only use AF-assist from an external flash and it will use the red LEDs when available and never strobe the popup.

[moz]

Pop-up flash is useless with big diameter lenses

I wish I had lenses that big

Although with a crop camera the hoods on the 17-40 and 17-35 lenses are largely decorative, IMO you're better off making one that works with the crop more accurately. Does the one off the 28-70/2.8 fit, by any chance? Even if you had to trim it a little (27mm effective vs 28mm) IMO better than the dinner plate. The full frame hood is just intimidating.

[DionM]

Pop-up flash is useless with big diameter lenses

I wish I had lenses that big

Although with a crop camera the hoods on the 17-40 and 17-35 lenses are largely decorative, IMO you're better off making one that works with the crop more accurately. Does the one off the 28-70/2.8 fit, by any chance? Even if you had to trim it a little (27mm effective vs 28mm) IMO better than the dinner plate. The full frame hood is just intimidating.

Even without the hood it is still quite a large lens - esp for shooting at wide angle.

Besides, we are talking about flash on a full-frame camera, remember

[moz]

Besides, we are talking about flash on a full-frame camera, remember

I remember that, but it hurts so I try not to talk about it. Tell you what, you lend me the full frame camera and I'll be happy to talk about how much the missing flash sucks

Given the way i get shadows from my Sigma 18-50 using the onboard flash, I can't really see what you'd gain from having a flash in the 5D - it'd be useful as a focus assist and for flashlights in eyes, and that'd be about it. Buying one of those cheap and nasty 2AA cell jobs to keep in your pocket would probably me as useful, and those things are about the size of a couple of 77mm filters so it's not as though it'd kill your camera bag.

[johndec]

I hope it'll be in the Easter Show bag.

Translation: Another 2 week delay. That's about 10 delays.. Thanks Nikon

"How much is that 5D in the window" (To the tune of "how much is that doggie in the window")

[DaveB]

Moz, maybe you want to check out this article about alternate hoods.

[birddog114]

I hope it'll be in the Easter Show bag.

Translation: Another 2 week delay. That's about 10 delays.. Thanks Nikon

"How much is that 5D in the window" (To the tune of "how much is that doggie in the window")

You'll perhaps receive extra stuff as bunny eggs and Easter buns in the bag as compensation! are those enough?

[johndec]

You'll perhaps receive extra stuff as bunny eggs and Easter buns in the bag as compensation! are those enough?

Sounds good except Nikon eggs and buns are only DX size and Canon is offering full size ones..

[moz]

Besides, we are talking about flash on a full-frame camera

As I was wandering around after work I thought of you, so I tried a shot with and without the flash. just to see if it's ever really useful I think the bear with the flash is a more usable shot:




Bigger versions for the very curious, plus a demonstration of the use for perspective correction - I shot the very sloping sign for the bears, then turned it into a pretty rectangle for the screen that you can see if you click it (it's 1100 wide 145kB and now I can OCR it): http://moz.net.nz/photo/2006/03/29-camera-tests/[/url]

(Dave: thanks for that link about hoods, it's exactly what I wanted to know)

[Alpha_7]

I checked the 5Ds stats, 12mp RAW files....the downside is I can only take half as many photos

[moz]

I checked the 5Ds stats, 12mp RAW files....the downside is I can only take half as many photos

Or you can buy twice as much memory. The choice is obvious really

[Alpha_7]

I checked the 5Ds stats, 12mp RAW files....the downside is I can only take half as many photos

Or you can buy twice as much memory. The choice is obvious really

I know, and on the upside I can crop the crap out of my shots and still have plenty of pixels to play with... At least memory is getting cheaper and cheaper

[nito]

interesting review. Esp took note of the dynamic range comments.

I was just thinking, what is stopping me from bracketing my shots between 1 and -1 EV and PS it together. Would I get the same dynamic range result?

[moz]

I was just thinking, what is stopping me from bracketing my shots between 1 and -1 EV and PS it together. Would I get the same dynamic range result?

Definitely - this is a standard trick for landscapes, there's a fair number of photoshop tutorials and even some actions out there to do this. Very hard to impossible without a tripod, even at 5 or 8 frames a second.

The other thing is that it's not easy to show 10 stops of dynamic range. In theory a 1000:1 contrast monitor can display it, but even high quality paper can't match that, and IMO the high contrast monitors tend to be a bit hard on the eyes if set to use it all. Lots of range is good in that it lets you PP a lot more, you can use curves to really bring out the shadow detail.

[Steffen]

Definitely - this is a standard trick for landscapes, there's a fair number of photoshop tutorials and even some actions out there to do this. Very hard to impossible without a tripod, even at 5 or 8 frames a second.

I've read about this numerous times, but haven't actually tried it myself (instead I've been wasting my time trying to find a good deal on Cokin grads).

Being the PP idiot I am I'd like to ask which PP technique is used to combine the two images. I suppose it is some layer merging operation, but which one? Could you describe it in generic terms, I'm not using PS but GIMP.

Also, will -1, +1 be enough for, say, beach sunsets? Those kind of scenes tend to have a much larger EV range...

Cheers
Steffen.

[moz]

Being the PP idiot I am I'd like to ask which PP technique is used to combine the two images.

Luminous Landscape tutorial with more keywords to seach on:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/blended_exposures.shtml
Buy the software that does it for you:
http://www.hdrsoft.com/

Basically you load the two exposures into one image, set opacity/transparency to about 50% on both, move one layer so the pixels all line up, then lock the positions. Now mask out the badly exposed bits of each image, feather the joins and merge... easy

[Steffen]

Thanks moz, I'll give it a try.

Cheers
Steffen.

[seeto.centric]

but using the onboard flash also eats up your camera's battery- using a speedlight will use up the speedlight batteries instead. you should get the same kinda battery life out of the camera's battery as if you were shooting with no flash, right?

i used the SB800 for AF assist last night at a concert. apparently the ppl didnt like the D70s' AF lamp heh heh

Julz

[sejanus]

I don't agree with that. If anything the 5D does more for me than the nikons I used to use, although a d200 is not one of those cameras.

With the nikons I often had to use exp compensation, prob 60-70% of the time, with the canon I just stay within my flash sync limit of 1/200, use ettl evaluative and let it do it's stuff. works well and it's very rare for my exposures to be off. Maybe I'm just lucky, but 2 5D's and 2 580ex's all act the same.

The D200 would certainlly be better ergonomically though, canon certainly have some odd ideas regarding changing values. but like most things you get used to it.

The 5D has a great sensor on it however if you are going to get the best out of it you need to drive it manually ever step of the way. It is a little like owning an old Rolls Royce without power steering.

[Glen]

but using the onboard flash also eats up your camera's battery- using a speedlight will use up the speedlight batteries instead. you should get the same kinda battery life out of the camera's battery as if you were shooting with no flash, right?

i used the SB800 for AF assist last night at a concert. apparently the ppl didnt like the D70s' AF lamp heh heh

Julz

Julz, pretty sure you are right that it consumes no more power. The IR AF assist is good on the SB800, even good to use in low light when not using the flash output. PS Welcome to the forum.



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