Cheap kit lens upgrades

[Hyena]

Hi guys, this is my first post here so go easy on me

I've had a search around here and a number of other sites (FM etc) and found lots of useful info but just wanted to verify what I've read before going ahead with my first DSLR purchase.

I've decided on the 350D but I need advice on the cheapest way to go about getting it and the best kit for the least money (budget is everything unfortunately)
The cheapest I've seen around is $1300 with the twin lens kit ($1200 after cashback) or ~ $1150 with just the single kit lens (but no Australian warranty which I want) . I figure the deal for $1300 with the 2 lenses is the way to go because I should be able to atleast get $50 for the new EF 55-200mm f/4.5-5.6 II kit B lens if I sell it.

BUT, is it worth flogging this lens and paying a bit extra and getting a tamron (such as THIS ONE ) or sigma equilavent for $200-300 or will it not make a worthwhile difference ? I've read a few posts defending the kit lenses but most recomend quickly upgrading.

Photography (and video) has always been a bit of a hobby but I'll never spend more than a few hundred on a lens so the usual advice to learn on the kit lens and save for L glass doesn't apply here


What ever I do I'll most probably get a Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II prime, it's just a matter of what else I get.

Is selling both kit lenses for something like this Sigma 28-70mm & 70-300mm set worthwhile ?
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Sigma-28-70mm-70 ... rdZ1QQcmdZ

I probably only need up to 200mm zoom, from what I've read the cheaper ones (ie in my price range) are a little nasty beyond that so it's probably not worth going to a 300mm if the picture is going to be el-shito (correct me if I'm wrong)


Another option is a Canon EF 28-105mm f/3.5-4.5 II USM as a walk around, general all purpose lens and do away with having a higher zoom. It seems to come fairly highly recommended and would probably suit me for most shots.


Any suggestions, comments and advice is welcome!

Thanks
Jay

[Justin]

If you're not completely stuck on Canon, how about picking up a second hand D70 (ok, I fess up I have one for sale right now in For Sale for about $1k) with kit lens (18-70) which from many accounts is a great kit lens, then the difference in cost will get you the nikon 70-300G (about $200)

Excuse my humble flogging of my equipment!

[Murray1006]

It's always a hard decision to pick from the many lenses available. If I was in your position I'd get the 350D with the twin lens kit and play with it for a while. Both lenses have their limitations but are still capable of some very decent results. Matched with the 50mm f/1.8 you would have a pretty decent kit. The 50mm is outstanding for the price. It's a very sharp lens and gives you a good low light option. The kit lenses together give you the range of 18-200mm which should meet your needs.

The 28-105mm gets the slightly better reviews but you loose quite a lot at the wide end and you also loose on the long end. Your decision will depend on what you shoot and whether this loss of range is acceptable to you. The other budget lenses you mention also have limitations and I don't think you would see any significant differences between them and the Canon offerings in this price range

So get the kit, have a play and judge from the results if you need to purchase a different lens. I think you'll find the results aren't as bad as most people report.

[Steffen]

Hyena,
not being a Canon user I cannot comment on your specific choice of gear and your lens questions, but I can give you some advice I wish someone had given me all those years ago:

I don't know your photography background, but if this is your first venture into (digital) SLR systems, buy some nice used kit. It will teach you everything you need to know and look out for before slamming down some serious bucks. It is easy to fall for marketing blurb (which is *always* ill-informed and misses the important bits). Much better to get some hands-on feel for what you really need (or want - a blurry line if there ever was one ). Used gear helps limiting the loss you *will* suffer from bad decisions.

And no, I don't have anything for sale right now

Hope this helps
Steffen.

[gstark]

Jay,

Welcome.

A couple of questions, as well as a couple of suggestions.

Why the 350 over the D70? Just curious to understand the thoughts behind the decision - they're both very capable cameras, but as you'll shortly learn, the real problem with taking good photos is the lack of skill of the person doing the taking.

Have you had a chance to handle the camera as yet? That should form a most important part of your buying process, as the camera will be living in your hands, and you need to be comfy with its size, feel, and handling characteristics.

When considering third party lenses (Tamron, Sigma, etc) consider more than just the aparent cheap cost. Often the build quality is not up to the same standard as the name brands - especially in the higher end glass.

There are often firmware issues encountered too, rendering the lens the lens little more than a paperweight and requiring it to be returned to a service point for an upgrade, should you update to a newer body.

Third party lenses also don't hold their value as well as the name glass, so you'll be losing more of what you have spent should you decide to upgrade in the future.

And always try to get the best glass you can. While you may have experience with SLRs and silver based imaging, people tend to look much more closely, and far more critically, at their digital images than they ever did before. This means that a lens that might have been of an acceptable standard for snapshot style prints suddenly has become a massive paperweight because it simply doesn't resolve all that well when you look at it, at 100%, on your monitor,.

Finally, please take a few moments to read our FAQ, and to update your profile to include a more meaningful profile. "The Shire" is not acceptable - which one is it? - and this is simply not a point that is open for negotiation. Thank you for your cooperation in this aspect, and again, welcome, and enjoy yourself here.

[Hyena]

Excuse my humble flogging of my equipment!

haha, there's always one!
I'm fairly set on the 350D, although seeing as I don't really need the camera right this minute I'm tempted to hang out a few months and see what replacement canon are going to release.

I admit I didn't look too closely at the D70. I played with the D50 (more in the price range of the 350D) but prefered the feel, size and weight of the canon.

There seems to be a flood of D70's for sale at the moment, every second post in the for sale forum is somone flogging a D70!

[Hyena]

Used gear helps limiting the loss you *will* suffer from bad decisions

Thanks for the advice Steffen. At the moment I'd rather steer away from second hand gear for the sake of a few hundred bucks. I'd be happy to get 2nd hand lenses but I'd rather buy a new body. I'll have this camera for many years and probably won't bother upgrading it until we're taking photos and projecting holograms with quartz crystals

update your profile to include a more meaningful profile. "The Shire" is not acceptable - which one is it?

THE Shire, there's only one
Sutherland Shire, Cronulla - I thought everyone knew that but I'll update my profile

Thanks for the advice on the lenses and alternatives Gary. I'll go back and have a play with a D70 before I totally rule it out. Originally it was out of my budget but if I do go 2nd hand then it's certainly worth considering.

[gstark]

There seems to be a flood of D70's for sale at the moment, every second post in the for sale forum is somone flogging a D70!

And I think that in every case you'll see that it's because they're upgrading to a D200.

[Justin]

There are some good deals on a 'body only' D70 in For Sale as well - this would free up more of your cash for decent lenses and you can get a wealth of valuable advice on the right lenses here.

lenses make a bigger difference to your pictures than the body, although bith are important. A good 2nd hand d70 (rated for 50000+ shutter activations), IMHO is a better buy than a new, cheaper model.

Why? If you do get more interested in photography, the D50 or 350d do not have a lot of the more professional functions of the d70 (or the canon equivalent). Such as DOF preview, more control over various functions of the camera. The advantage for a beginner is still that the d70 (d70s) is the highest model in the nikon range to still have fully automatic picture mode. So in 1 or 2 years you may find yourself frustrated by the cheaper model if bitten hard by the bug!

I'm going to a D200 because of it's extra control, and focus, I don't need auto exposure any more (after 18 months!) and it likes older manual lenses better.

What we need here is a considered opinion from someone who has used both the 350d / d50 and the d70 / equivalent canon

[makario]

Hi Jay,

I was in a simillar position 10 months ago, the advice I was given

1) invest money in good glass that will outlast the camera body.
2) Think small (cheaper camera body) so that you can get the hang of a DSLR and after some experience you will know what you want or "if" you want anything else.
3) Invest in good books and mags to learn techniques
4) There's a saying "its the person behind the camera who takes the image not the camera itself" having a decent camera helps!
5) its perfectly ok to lust for new and better equipment once you buy your camera... god knows we all do!!
6) MOST IMPORTANT ... Keep practising (which I dont do as much as I would have liked to be honest)

For what its worth when I made the switch from Point and Shoot to DSLR I went in for Canon 350D based on review from dpreview.com 17-85 IS USM lens (which has mixed reviews) and a 90-300 USM lens, knowing what I know, would I have bought something different 10 months down the track ... for sure.... but I have learnt loads with this camera.

Hope this helps

Mak

[Hyena]

Hey Mak,
So do you feel you've outgrown the 350D now ?
If so what do you feel it lacks and/or in what way is inadequate for you ?

At the moment I have a Canon A75 which I've been fairly happy with as a smallish point and shoot (with manual control over the aperture, shutter speed etc) but it's time to step up. As I said initially though I won't be upgrading this camera for a very long time and I won't ever have a budget for "good" glass. So given it seems that spending a few hundred on lenses isn't really worthwhile (unless I happen to snag a bargain) this will pretty much be a one off purchase.

[Alpha_7]

There seems to be a flood of D70's for sale at the moment, every second post in the for sale forum is somone flogging a D70!

And I think that in every case you'll see that it's because they're upgrading to a D200.

With the exception of those upgrading to a D2X

[makario]

Hi Jay,

No, I have not outgrown the Canon 350D yet as I feel that it takes good pics for what I want and I am on a budget as well, the only thing I think I miss is the 9 focus points in the 20D as compared to the 7 in the 350D, the question is would I have used them.... well lets see I have manually set the center point to focus... so in hindsight not much use, the only issue may be that its a bit small and i find my pinky curling below the camera.... hold the 350D and you will understand what I mean.

Moving from a P&S to a DSLR the images you get straight out of the DSLR camera will not be as "saturated" as you would be used to, this is normal as you will need to post process it

What I would have really done differently is the lens purchase

rather than shelling out for the 17-85 IS USM I would have gone with the kit lens (18-55 )yes its got mixed review, but would have then bought a 50mm F1.8 (fast lens for low light photography/indoor and portraits taking into account the 1.6 fov).

Now the lens choice depends on the type of photgraphy you are looking at doing... ie potraits/ landscape/sports/ animal or birding/ macro etc etc

for me I like portraits and landscape and the odd party candid so here's what I got

1) 17-85 IS USM - a great walk about lens - for landscapes and the odd portrait
2) 90-300 USM - for portraits outdoors, nice in zoo where you can blurr out the cages
3) 430EX flash - when I take photos indoors.
4) CF cards
5) 2 UV filters and 1 CP filter for the telezoom
6) extra batteries for sterlintek
7) giotto rocket blower

What I want to buy
1) 50mm f1.8 or 50mm f1.4 - fast lens - 1.8 is way cheaper but 1.4 has a better build and creamy bokesh and better . the 1.8 is known to have front/back focusing issues and hence you would need to be sure that the lens you get does not have this prob (there are test sheets available to solve test this)

2) 70-200 f2.8 L USM - a true beaut as per reviews, had a play with one and its huge. Looking at using it primarly for portraits and for a bit of landscape. can also be used to sports stuff which may come in useful when I start a fly hehehe

3) 100mm f2.8 macro - for macro photography a bit of portraits (overlaps with the 70-200 from a portrait point of view

What I will buy if I win the lottery
1) 24-70 L
2) 17-40 L
3) 70-200 f2.8 L IS USM
4) 85mm

You may ask why only canon lens and not others... honestly I like to stay with the oem I bought the camera from. doesnt mean other lens are bad, infact some are great for their price points.

final parting advice Dont throw away the boxes for the lens/equipment you buy no matter how much your partner hassles you, you get a little better resale value if you have the original packaging.

Most of all enjoy the process finally a couple of test portraits of the portrait workshop instructors with my 90-300 glass, may not be technically perfect but I like the outcome.




Oh boy, its official this is my longest non work related email ever!!! I hope I was able to give you an insight of what I would have done and some of my learning during my camera purchase process.

Chees
Mak

[Amfibius]

I would recommend the EF-S 17-85IS USM.

I have done a comparison between the 17-85IS USM and the 17-40 F/4L. One is an L lens, the other a consumer zoom. You would expect the L to win, right?

Well, I did a blind comparison of the two lenses. I posted a poll on OCAU and FM, inviting people to vote on which set of images was taken with the L lens. Only 2/3 got it right (in both forums), or just more than blind guessing. Many people commented that it was very hard to tell the difference. IMO this shows how close the 17-85IS USM comes to L glass. It offers twice the reach (85mm vs. 40mm) AND you get IS.

[Hyena]

rather than shelling out for the 17-85 IS USM I would have gone with the kit lens (18-55 )yes its got mixed review, but would have then bought a 50mm F1.8

Yeah the 50mm f1.8 is on my list of definites - how could I not for the price!
The 1.4 is out for the price and I think the 1.8 would do me anyway (because I too haven't found that winning lottery ticket yet )

the 1.8 is known to have front/back focusing issues and hence you would need to be sure that the lens you get does not have this prob (there are test sheets available to solve test this)

AH, I didn't know that! I've seen these front/back issues mentioned in reviews and threads here and there but wasn't sure what it was - sounds like something else I need to read up on!

Is this something you should test in-store before buying such a lens or is it something you don't pick up untli later and then have to try and return/swap it ?
Sounds like one I best not buy cheaply online if having to returning it is on the cards...

would recommend the EF-S 17-85IS USM.

As I said I've only got a few hundred bucks to spend on glass so that pretty much rules out anything IS!