Our Standard of Appraisal ??

[lejazzcat]

I wonder,
In order to help us learn, may i suggest that we create a standard for assessing members pictures?
A common practice would be to rate the images "out of 10"...

Comments like "really nice" or "interesting" are just too emotional and subjective to be used as a critical scale.

I often think people are being too 'nice' in their opinions, and some copout by using a pleasant emotive to encourage the photographer, which is very friendly, but not really very helpful .

Just think back to school/uni and consider who you worked harder to impress, the pushover "mrniceguy", or the "only your best will do" hardass professor?
Ide say, this way we can express your opinion without hiding the lack we observe.

For example,

Technical x/10 (these days with AF and AE, less revent)

Creativity y/10

Composition z/10

Overall = x+z+y

And may i suggest that the photographers share some details of the image
For example,
ISO, S.Speed, Fstop, Lens, timeofday, aspect....
Theyre all important details that can be refined. PS. Any other criteria ?

[birddog114]

I wonder,
In order to help us learn, may i suggest that we create a standard for assessing members pictures?
A common practice would be to rate the images "out of 10"...

Comments like "really nice" or "interesting" are just too emotional and subjective to be used as a critical scale.

I often think people are being too 'nice' in their opinions, and some copout by using a pleasant emotive to encourage the photographer, which is very friendly, but not really very helpful .

Just think back to school/uni and consider who you worked harder to impress, the pushover "mrniceguy", or the "only your best will do" hardass professor?
Ide say, this way we can express your opinion without hiding the lack we observe.

For example,

Technical x/10 (these days with AF and AE, less revent)

Creativity y/10

Composition z/10

Overall = x+z+y

And may i suggest that the photographers share some details of the image
For example,
ISO, S.Speed, Fstop, Lens, timeofday, aspect....
Theyre all important details that can be refined. PS. Any other criteria ?

This ideas are all in of this sections, the purposes here are try to help people to achieve their photography skills, not the voting or giving point to each category of the photo. Rating or giving point to photos are in the challenge section. Whereas people posted their photos for competiton.

I didn't see it work that way but I can see in the past with more ideas of each member in showing to other, their thoughts and experiences of their comrades's photos same as some quick lessons how to improve your taken. Under difference views, they're many of ideas and recommendations, from there members may or may not gain their learning and it's always depend on.

Most of the posted pics or links all have their EXIF to tell the viewer all the the fine details of the pics but can be asked in more details if needed.

[Greg B]

lejazzcat, while what you say about the current practice of commenting on images, I think we need to keep in mind what this forum is about and what we are trying to achieve (or what I think we are trying to achive anyway - others may hold a different view).

We have a range of skills here, from real novices to extremely competent professional standard photographers.

One of the things which has set this forum apart from other forums, and which has contributed to its phenomonal growth, is the friendly and nurturing tone. Newcomers have been prepared to show their images, confident that they will receive encouragement and genuinely useful advice and suggestions.

I understand what you are getting at - and I think it has some merit. We all want real feedback, not platitudes. However, scores can be brutal, and the scorers may have less experience than the photogs.

I think that your idea may have some application - maybe if we have another category such a "Images - Please give me a score". But I also think that the current informal image review arrangements have been very successful in the context of something we do for fun, and have given lots of our members invaluable feedback they might have otherwise not been able to get.

cheers

[Mj]

Short and sweet cause I'm off to the mini-meet...

Let's keep the scoring for the competitions... this section should be about providing some helpful suggestions for improving a shot... and discuss what does and doesn't work both technically and emotionally in a composition. What I think we need to start doing more of is to disect and discuss a shot rather than just comments like 'well done' and 'nice pic', but we need to be mindful of the experience of the photag and not discourage people by being to harsh either... otherwise I might curl up in the corner and cry

Scoring a photograph will not add to that intent IMHO.

Michael.

[MHD]

I suppose if people want an image apraised they can email it to me and I can put it in an apraisal part of my Gallery (emailing will allow the full image or as large as you want it to be sent)

Let me know this and I will set it up

[lejazzcat]

[quote="Birddog114
Most of the posted pics or links all have their EXIF to tell the viewer all the the fine details of the pics but can be asked in more details if needed.[/quote]

Hi BD,
i had heard of this (i dont have the d70 yet), so is the EXIF imbedded into the image ?- then how does one see it without having a d70 or Capture ?

I see that i am at odds here with my suggestion. I expected as much but thought the idea had merit ...

[sirhc55]

If anyone wishes to vote on a pic that has been placed on Pixspot or any of the other picture hosting sites then they may.

I have noticed on my other pic site, fotopics, that people have voted and I have no idea who they would be.

Chris

[lejazzcat]

Short and sweet cause I'm off to the mini-meet...

What I think we need to start doing more of is to disect and discuss a shot rather than just comments like 'well done' and 'nice pic', but we need to be mindful of the experience of the photag and not discourage people by being to harsh either... otherwise I might curl up in the corner and cry

Scoring a photograph will not add to that intent IMHO.

Michael.

Years ago i worked as a teacher, so I know scoring does work.
By all means, if one makes a critical observation, then they are responsible for supplying its solution, as well as further encouragement.
Most students were total beginners, and had paid thousand$ to get that experience and information .

IMO,

If you say "nice shot", then you avoid responsiblity for offering a solution. It just weakens both photogs.

Leaving scoring to the comps leaves amateurs unaware of the types of rigours required of their craft . After having had their egos stroked by their friends, they are crushed when they get nothing from the judges.

Sure, scoring can create some strong differences of opinion, but this usually creates the type of debate that instills a deeper level of learning.

May i suggest a poll be taken to determine the percentage of members who ;
use the camera just for a bit of fun,
those wanting to improve ,
are serious amatuers,
are working professionals ?

As for the reasons people join and continue with this forum, 'having your ego stroked regularily' seems pretty insecure to me .

The size,skill and hunger for information of membership will quickly outgrow that (IMHO).

I know what you guys are saying, but these cameras arent toys.
There are standards to create and maintain if you want a strong forum of technical and creative virtue. The comradery will benefit from the professionalism, not suffer from mediocrity.

Hmmm.. i shouldn't have had that third coffee .
Have a nice day.

[Greg B]

lejazz, you can do a poll - give it a go and see what transpires. It is always interesting to get that kind of input

cheers

[sirhc55]

lejazzcat

As a teacher scoring does help a student to appraise their position within a select group. As a pyschologist scoring can tear away the persona of someone who is not as strong as the group.

I have no objection to someone tearing my efforts appart in appraisal nor do I have an objection with someone saying nice or great shot. On one level you are dealing with the technical (teaching) and on the other you are dealing with the emotive (pyschology).

I am sure that some people post their pics for a genuine appraisal of their technique and wish to learn if they have done it right or wrong.

There are others who just want to show a picture that they are proud of.

To be perfectly honest when I go to an art gallery I go to look at the paintings and enjoy, or otherwise, what I see.

I am not interested in someone telling me that an artist who has been dead for 200 hundred years applied the paint in a particular way and fashion, but my partner may!

But to get back to the subject at hand I believe that you will find here a mix of replies to posted pics - technical and emotive - and that is what is so nice about this forum. If someone wants their pic critiqued they normally say so, so we reply.



Chris

[lejazzcat]

I suppose if people want an image apraised they can email it to me and I can put it in an apraisal part of my Gallery (emailing will allow the full image or as large as you want it to be sent)

Let me know this and I will set it up

Very helpful MHD, thank you !

[lejazzcat]

lejazz, you can do a poll - give it a go and see what transpires. It is always interesting to get that kind of input

cheers

My thoughts are that this type information is something the moderators might like to poll the forum about .
That way its more likely to get a genuine response.
I realise im 'new' here and as such may be seen to be too presumptuous...

Anyhow , i hope im not treading on toes here. I genuinely enjoy the vibe of this forum .
Perhaps ive misunderstood the meaning of review and critique.
If people just want share their work, maybe there should be a "Gallery and Exhibition" topic separate to "Image reviews and critiques"?

How about a D70users exhibition?
Real prints, mounted and such, where guests are invited and the works are for sale?
Might be that big break some are looking for ...?

[lejazzcat]

lejazzcat

To be perfectly honest when I go to an art gallery I go to look at the paintings and enjoy, or otherwise, what I see.

I am not interested in someone telling me that an artist who has been dead for 200 hundred years applied the paint in a particular way and fashion, but my partner may!

Chris

Chris, im sure most people go to galleries for that reason.

They also know that these works of art have been assessed by professional peers, and have thus passed the grade (A grade, so to speak) in order to be exhibited as "works of art"- unless its for charity....

know what i mean? I guess thats what im trying to suggest we do with our "gallery".

[MCWB]

Let's keep the scoring for the competitions... this section should be about providing some helpful suggestions for improving a shot... and discuss what does and doesn't work both technically and emotionally in a composition.

Spot on. Giving a picture a score, overall or in parts isn't that much more useful than 'nice shot' IMO. People discussing what works and doesn't work in terms of composition, technical aspects and "vibe" (thank you Dennis Denuto) would be much more helpful for amateurs and pros alike I'd think. If people discuss this sort of thing then giving it a score is nearly redundant.

lejazzcat: unless it's stipped out, EXIF data is embedded in the photo. You can find out which lens was used, exposure data, and a heap of other things (almost any setting that affects the image). You can view this in Windows by right-clicking the file, selecting properties, summary, Advanced. You can also see it in Nikon View, irfanview etc etc, and I believe there are also plugins for Firefox.  BTW you might be on to something with a 'Gallery and Exhibition' section, but there's significant overlap...

[JordanP]

While ego's may be getting stroked (I'd call it encouragement) I also don't find any lack in helpful tips, suggestions for improvement as well as honest opinions.

What I find hard to presume is what the photographer was trying to achieve when they took the shot. Not knowing that leaves me underqualified to give an indepth critique. I guess that is why competitions can go to that depth as there is a theme to shoot to - thus we know at least some of the reason behind the photo.

In terms of scoring being a useful tool in teaching - due to the vast difference in experience, reasons and objectives in this community - wouldn't it be like scoring young students trough to teenagers with the same measurement tool?

I agree totally that useful feedback is invalueable in the learning and growing experience. But there is nothing preveting anyone from doing that with the current set up. So I'm not sure that trying to structure or formalise such a thing is the best way to draw out more honest critiquing.

just my 2c
Cheers,

[PlatinumWeaver]

I posted a message regarding the state of the review section where I very briefly touched upon this issue here.

I think we really need to split the section in two and have one section that sticks to the description of this current forum, that being...

Got a thin skin? Then look elsewhere. Post a link to an image that you've made, and invite others to offer their critiques. Honesty is encouraged, but please be positive in your constructive criticism. Flaming and just plain nastiness will not be tolerated.

I think that far too often this section is being used to just dump images without any desire for feedback. Of the top 5 threads at the moment ( including this one ) only one thread looks to be asking for advice, presenting a considered and refined image for review...

Also - there are an increasing amount of threads posted here with no image attached, questions on everyone's favourite photographer, while an interesting read, are really quite out of place...

I believe we should split the thread into two sections..

1) Image Reviews & Critiques; Got a thin skin? Then look elsewhere. Post a link to an image that you've made, and invite others to offer their critiques. Honestly is paramount here, helpful advice will be given if the image is lacking, but no-one is going to blow sunshine up your.....

2)Odd Shots; Post your shots here to share them with the community, we know they're not perfect but the subject is what you want to share not the image as a whole. Perfect place for happysnaps, quirky shots or just for those looking for re-assurance, not reviewing.

We're seeing a very chaotic time at the moment, with hackers and ever increasing membership, and although it's mostly an improvement, the removal of the sidebar on the forum means it's a lot harder to keep track of threads and forums, splitting this forum into those two sections and keeping them seperate will do a lot to alleviate that...


p.s. I don't like ratings
p.p.s. I do think honestly is important here, we should be able to post our opinions like this little rant and not ruffle feathers... I hope...

[gstark]

My thoughts are that this type information is something the moderators might like to poll the forum about .

Just for the record, I can tell you with a great deal of authority that at least one of the mods here doesn't like polls too much. That's not to suggest that he would prevent others from running them, but he sees very little real merit in the sorts of polls that are run on systems such as this one.

That said ...

I realise im 'new' here and as such may be seen to be too presumptuous...

Not in the slightest. I think it's an excellent suggestion, and a great starting point for discussion. I've been avidly reading this discussion thus far with a great deal of inteest in learning what everyone else's views on this are.

Perhaps ive misunderstood the meaning of review and critique.
If people just want share their work, maybe there should be a "Gallery and Exhibition" topic separate to "Image reviews and critiques"?

Let me state my views here.

First off, there's not been anything to prevent someone awarding a score to any image. If someone feels a need to award 7/10 to an image for its technical merit, why shouldn't they?

But what actually defines technical ... competence?

Who says that a particular image is worthy of x/10 for its asthetic qualities? What you like, I might not. Conversely, something that I think is 10/10 might make you want to throw up.

So in reality, were we to introduce some sort of scoring system, at the end of the day I'm not convinced that it would provide any outcome that is much different from what we're already seeing.

It might be in a different format, but I suspect that it will always be subjective.

Not that there's anything wrong with it being subjective; I just think that we might be promoting something whose value is less than it might appear.

How about a D70users exhibition?
Real prints, mounted and such, where guests are invited and the works are for sale?
Might be that big break some are looking for ...?

I'm thinking that this is something that we're already doing within the challenges. Not quite to the degree that you're suggesting - well, not yet - but it's not too different to me.

Please keep this discussion flowing; I am interested in all your ideas.

[PlatinumWeaver]

must've posted within seconds of each other.. startled me when I hit post and yours came up as the last one..

[Matt. K]

lejazzcat
"There are standards to create and maintain if you want a strong forum of technical and creative virtue."

What are the standards?

As for scoring an image with percentage marks....I think that is not helpful. Comments like "nice pic...I love the use of colour but the white blob on the left is distracting" are for more useful...and personel.
But you have got the forum members thinking and maybe there is a better way.

Just my opinion.

[Mj]

mmm... gotta say this has certainly stirred some interesting debate...

Having now read all the views so far I still believe that a scoring system will not help me improve my skills... if I were to receive a 3/10 for composition that does nothing for me...

If Gary were to suggest that having my left pinky accidently showing in the left corner of the photo presents badly and perhaps I should be more careful where I place my damn hands, might be of more value to help understand what to improve.

Also I believe that if we introduce scoring into this section we will see a severe reduction in the number of posts (which are not all that high to begin with) beginners and those with thin skins will almost certainly not post for fear of a poor score.

Having said all that, if and when I post a pic I really do want constructive comment and learn useful ways to improve. The last pic I posted (and I'll check again in a minute) has only received 'well done' and 'nice shot' comments which are also (whilst praise is always nice) not going to help me improve.

Lets please keep the scoring for the competitions... those who like the scoring concept should make them a priority and I am sure if we can increase the number of entries per comp we would then be able to hold many more.

Michael.

[leigh999]

I can appreciate where lejazzcat is coming from - and think that PlatinumWeaver is on the right track. Whether you score or not (which I would agree with other posts doesn't necessarily add much) I think it is more about whether there are members who are seeking more rigorous discussion and critical assessment of the merits of posted photographs. I think this is a difficult thing to acheive as evidenced by the many varied photographic/art forums out there whose members simply trade well meaning encouragement such as 'nice shot' or 'like the colours'. Yes this is encouraging to newbies but does it really extend or challenge anyone as a photographer?

Establishing a particular section or procedure (such as adding 'I appreciate critical comments' to your post) should ensure that no innocents are caught in the cross fire. From there it is up to the forum members to take up the challenge.

1) As a photographer can you accept opinions from other photographers who may be less technically 'skilled' or have a different artisitc 'taste'? Can you take the feedback in good spirit, knowing that whether you agree or not at least this person has given time to look at you picture and has given you a different perspective to consider which you may or may not adopt?

2) As a viewer can you take the time to consider an image in more detail and genuinely reflect on how you might have dealt with similar subject matter? And can you offer your comments in good spirit knowing that the photographer may not agree with you and may not wish to change anything about their image?

They kinda sound like wedding vows don't they? I think that trust and respect is required to make it work otherwise it would disintegrate into grudges and flaming. The forum does have a great friendly vibe which is why people are attracted to join - but IMHO if there is no opportunity for more rigorous assessment then it is pretty much like showing your pics to your family and getting a lot of "very nice dear".

Hoping I haven't offended anyone...

Rebecca

[dooda]

I refrain from opening such pic review posts unless I have the time and energy to really go over the picture. For me saying "nice pic" is a waste of time. Sure I don't mind when someone does it to me. When someone says wow, or a noncliche then I'm really flattered (hint hint everyone for my next pic post). I'm quite proud of some of the advice that I've given people, and word it as carefully as I can.

I can see where you're coming from though, it would be nice to see where the pictures stand, but different people voting on different pictures all of the time, it wouldn't lead me to much.

That being said I do find the scoring of the contest a tad frustrating. The scores we offer are subjective phrases that could mean about anything (for me "nice" and "needs some work" can mean almost the same thing. One person on my Nature BW photo gave it the absolute worst score-which is fine- except that for the life of me I'd love to know why they scored it that way, and obviously way below many others that it stood against. There were pictures that scored above mine that I thought were frankly quite average and boring. I was really hoping for a discussion after the comp that went more in depth as to why people judged one above another. I suppose I could have tried to initiate a discussion...

Scoring works for a contest because the piece exists within a concrete framework where it is judged. To score pics being randomnly uploaded in the image critique area won't have the same benefit and impact. When I post pictures here I've been quite happy with the critique. I value it more than anything else on this forum (and that's saying something). I read and scroll over anything that doesn't help, and love it when someone tells me, this is a great picture, thankyou for making my day a little better(hint hint).

I've also noticed that when someone critiques a picture with "boring" or "flat" though it is being decisive won't help the photog any IMHO. The greatest question in photography is "why?" Why am I taking this photo, why is it a bad score, why good score, why boring etc. This post is too long.

[Manta]

One of the things which has set this forum apart from other forums, and which has contributed to its phenomonal growth, is the friendly and nurturing tone. Newcomers have been prepared to show their images, confident that they will receive encouragement and genuinely useful advice and suggestions.

This is certainly what drew me to the forum although I will always appreciate honest feedback on my photos whether it's positive or negative.

As others have suggested, I believe any scoring system should be either a separate category or only after a request from the photographer.

[sirhc55]

In my own mind I assume that when someone posts a response to a photo and that response is nice pic or I like, they are basically saying ”there is nothing wrong with this pic IMO”!

I have posted one pic on this forum that raised a lot of praise - the only real comment of a technical nature was someone saying it looked as if it was a posed shot! Which it was not. In fact I nearly threw the shot away!!!

There will be pics posted that we can critique and there will be pics posted that will not receive critique at all because everyone that views it likes it.

My $1 worth

Chris

[bwhinnen]

One thing I'll add, I am a complete amatuer, this is my first SLR of any sort and it is also my first attempt at using a camera properly (regardless of type). So in saying that someone like myself will not be able to give technical scores that will be to any set standard. I personally know what I like, know how I'd do it differently (or realistically go "wow, that is how I should have done it"). But, no BUT, being able to score on composition and technical merit is a little beyond me, and yet I think that my "vibe" feeling may be of some assistance to some.

Some of the photos on this site just blow me away and I like to thank the photog that has taken them and also try and explain why I like it so much. I am endeavoring to learn about technically correct photography, but that takes time and I don't think that I for one would be appropriate to award a score to someone elses photo.

Sorry for rambling a little, but the constructive comments on here help me so much, whether they are to my own work, or to someone elses. As has been stated a simple score of 4/10, 5/10 and 3.5/10 or 8/10, 7.5/10 and 9/10 don't really help me to learn where I may be making mistakes or where I can really improve as a photog.

Cheers
Brett

[BBJ]

My 2 bobs worth, which is bugger all but i know i am 1 of those who does say nice pic and so on, but if i do is because i think everyones pics are good except fot the crap ones i posted this morning of some planes but they were posted as my first digital pics on how digital cameras have come a long way over the past few years.

Some people look at pictures in different ways depending on there taste, and well you might think a pic is fantatstic, yet i might not like it as may not be my scene but i try to take pics of things that i would not normally take because well we have to learn somewhere and i dont belive in judging other people or what pics they share but is nice to know if you go wrong or how to improve the shot.

Competition, well thats different maybe then you can have a voting systems, but if i i say nice pic means i really like it and wouldn't change it.
I dont think i am qualified to give critique as such and well i think the forums are just great the way they are and if you want a voting system of some sorts maybe some one should setup like we have on the Fujimugs challenge comps they have every month.
I might be off the beaten track but why change a good thing.
Cheers
John
BBJ

[phillipb]

I guess I may as well join in this debate.
My view is this, by it's very nature, a scoring system is anonymous, at the end of the day if one of my photos gets 10 votes of varying scores, I would really like to know who gave what and why.
When you hang around here for a while you get to know the people and you may regard the opinion of some above the opinion of others. Not to demean anyone, but in a voting system, my son's votes (if he was a member) who knows nothing about photography would have the same weight as Gary's who's been into it for over 30 years.

[glamy]

I also feel that scoring would not be as helpful a comments for example about contrast, lighting or boring. Not everybody feels qualified to score, but we know what we like. But in any case it's nice to share pictures.
Cheers,
Gerard

[BBJ]

Me again, just a quick one but i know in another forum i am in they have a newbies area and a more advanced area for posting pics, But it's comments like this that makes me feel good and better than any scoring system.From sirhc55

sirhc55-BBJ - without sounding condescending your pics have improved out of sight since you joined this forum (I think there is a pun in there somewhere).

You are obviously getting to know your D70 and lens and posting great pics like this one (2) - keep it up mate

[Killakoala]

I've had a little time to think about this issue and i see it as such;

1. Scoring System -
Has it's merits. It's simple and straight to the point. Each individual's score will be based on their own interpretations of what constitutes a good photo, however different individuals will score a photo quite differently as we all perceive things differently. The problem would be in determining what a particualr score actually constitues. What is the criteria for a 3 or a 5 or a 7? This would need to be predetermined to enable it to be scored accurately rather than by each critic's own personal preference, otherwise we would end up with exactly the same system we have now but with numbers.

2. Current System. -
Also has it's merits. It allows a person to decide if they like the picture or not and add extra critique if they feel up to it. (Although both systems would allow this as it is a forum). I think this allows both 'noobs' and more experienced people to add what they think of the photo. A simple 'I like it', constitutes a score above 5 and 'I don't like it', would constitue a score below 5.

Frankly i like the way we do things now and i reckon it works. i have seen my own photo skills improve since i 'arrived' at this forum and have also seen other members photos improve too.

IMHO, 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it.'

[Killakoala]

I've had a little time to think about this issue and i see it as such;

1. Scoring System -
Has it's merits. It's simple and straight to the point. Each individual's score will be based on their own interpretations of what constitutes a good photo, however different individuals will score a photo quite differently as we all perceive things differently. The problem would be in determining what a particualr score actually constitues. What is the criteria for a 3 or a 5 or a 7? This would need to be predetermined to enable it to be scored accurately rather than by each critic's own personal preference, otherwise we would end up with exactly the same system we have now but with numbers.

2. Current System. -
Also has it's merits. It allows a person to decide if they like the picture or not and add extra critique if they feel up to it. (Although both systems would allow this as it is a forum). I think this allows both 'noobs' and more experienced people to add what they think of the photo. A simple 'I like it', constitutes a score above 5 and 'I don't like it', would constitue a score below 5.

Frankly i like the way we do things now and i reckon it works. i have seen my own photo skills improve since i 'arrived' at this forum and have also seen other members photos improve too.

IMHO, 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it.'

[johndec]

OK, my take on this debate:

I think that my mother said it best when she said "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".. After all this sub-forum isn't the competition forum and judging by the VERY limited responses to my first picture posts (which BTW I thought were pretty good ) it appears a lot of your mothers said the same thing

In a nutshell, I rarely respond to posts in this forum, because I feel I'm not qualified to "deem" what is good and what isn't. Of course, there are some outstanding pics here that demand a positive response, but I'm happy to praise the photo, but I'm not interested in giving it a rating out of 10.

How many examples have we seen of posted pics that have been vastly improved by PP suggestions, which is much more constructive than "your pic sucks 3/10".

I would much prefer this forum to continue to suggest and encourage.

[lejazzcat]

I think that far too often this section is being used to just dump images without any desire for feedback. Of the top 5 threads at the moment ( including this one ) only one thread looks to be asking for advice, presenting a considered and refined image for review...

Also - there are an increasing amount of threads posted here with no image attached, questions on everyone's favourite photographer, while an interesting read, are really quite out of place...

I apologise for the "everyones favourite photog? " thread in this forum , i posted the in the hope of opening discussion and analysis of pro's work to inspire more analysis of members images contextually.
I also wanted to know more about the members tastes as well...better the devil you know....
If i can, i'll reposition the post into another forum.

[lejazzcat]

Thank you all for your responses! Very interesting .

Ide also like to clear up a misunderstanding though. It was never my suggestion to replace the constructive advice with a x/10 rating.
The point of a score, was that it added to the comment, the further context of possible scope to work to.

A overall score of say 20/30 ("nice pic") may be combined
8/10 Tech.
8/10 Comp.
4/10 Creative

or

6/10 T
6/10 Co
8/10 Cr

And that would be a very different picture! The composition and technical can readily be improved with forethought, creativity would be much harder.

Technical merit is relatively easy to assess. (and with MATRIX AE easy to get right enough)
Focus, exposure, shake, iso(noise/grain in filmspeak),lighting (shadows etc) finger in the shot, hot spot reflections...

Composition is more difficult to explain, but still possible.
Camera angle,aspect ratio, cropping, rule of thirds (golden mean), centre position, horizon line etc, lighting again,....

Creativity ( the x factor )- the hardest but im many ways the most important!
Color, subject, ??????....
Here is where people have to take their minds off MATRIX AE and take some chances- and make lots of mistakes.
As some people expressed - the "why" they took the image.

Whats the point of submitting a safe image that you know you got right for critical assesment? You dont learn anything.

When i studied photography, my teacher wanted to see the contact sheets, to see all of the things i got 'wrong' on the roll, not the ones i got right!
I learned to make less and less mistakes that way, rather than getting praise for the images i possibly 'flooked', i learned to improve my shooting ratio. Very important.

Still , i also understand that there is no need to do this as if by mandate. It wasnt my idea that it be taken that way. Ide hate that too!
Email can so easily be misconstrued and i guess thats why alot of people are hesitant to post a hard comment , of fear that they will be disliked for their comment...

I, also agree that there is a system that already works, for the better part, and enjoying the 'vibe' is just as important to the improvement of our skills, as are the rigours of competition.

So thanks to you all for your input , i hope it adds some spice to the next posts in this forum.

Submit with impunity, but lets 'keep it real' too.
(Im a little worried about submitting mine now lol)

[JordanP]

An assumption I think we should be careful of:

'Nice Shot', 'I like it', 'Well done' Praise doesn't help develop your skills

Not that I think anyone here is a baby - but as a parent I find it interesting how a child learns to walk so well without being critiqued.

One of your biggest developing factors will be your reason to get better.

Also, lets not forget that this forum (as wonderful as it is) is not the only source we should be looking to if we wish to challenge and develop our skills as photographers. You can read books, pour through other work you aspire to. If you see serious gaps between the images you take and those you aspire to, why not jump on the forum and ask a direct question..... like "how do you get the image to jump out at you? I look at all suchnsushes work and the subject is so striking. My images in comparison are kind of flat and busy. Any idea what I could try?"

For those that want to be encouraged and get a few tips along the way I see value in 'Nice shot!'. Something more specific would be better, but I still think encouragement like this inspires people to go out and take more pics (another technique to improving your skills). If you want more then ask. Members here will oblige. Specific questions like the hypothetical above will go a long way to developing your skills. If rigorus critiquing is what you are after and you don't feel you get it even after asking for it then try here:

http://www.the28thfloor.com
or
http://www.photosig.com

If someone doesn't want full on critique and is happy with feel good 'praise' then that's fine too. They might say something like "be gentle". They may not be as hungry (or confident) to develop there skills at a fast rate - nothing wrong with that

cheers,

[mudder]

G'day,
Been following some of the comments in the thread and find the different views really interesting.

I'm probably one of the ones that more often than not provides the more subjective stuff as I'm certainly not skilled or experienced enough to critique the shots from photographers that are obviously a lot more skilled and creative than I am. I"m still a newbie in comparison to the quality of posts I see here, so I'm always a little apprehensive to critique.

Maybe instead of splitting into two threads, a standard "tag" or "flag" could be used on the threads posting images primarily for critique, perhaps something that can be applied to the thread by the poster when posting, that could be listed as a tag in the "thread list"? Just a thought... That might require input from the Moderators as to how that could work. That way there might be less distinction about the "sharing" type posts that may make the poster feel as though they are contributing less by seperating them?

Cheers,
Mudder

[bago100]

May I say that when someone says "nice picture" to me, this comment indicates that the viewer has acknowledged the pleasure they received when they viewed the picture and has also given positive encouragement to the poster.

"Nice picture" does not teach the photographer anything but it may teach the viewer something about their own photography.

Personally, I learn a lot from seeing forum members photographs. Sometimes when a photograph is reviewed critically, I can't see what the reviewer is getting at, and therefore cannot agree.

IMO, D70 forum members should be able to post whatever photographs they want and request a critical review if that is what they want.

As for me, I'm going to continue to post positive encouragement comments when I see a picture that I like, and I will refrain from any subjective negative comment unless the picture poster asks for critical appraisal.

This is a great big friendly forum and we need to keep it that way.

That's my 10 cents worth, now my wife is about to give me a full throttle 90 cents worth if I don't hop to it and do the chores that have to be done!

Cheers

Graham

[leigh999]

Hey JordanP

I had not previously seen photo critique sites like the ones you posted -

Thanks for posting them!

Rebecca

[Greg B]

I spent some time on photoSIG a while back. They have a scoring system that is effectively -3 to +3 (actually 1,2 or 3 thumbs down and 1,2, or 3 thumbs up).

When I started visiting, there were a group of people, maybe 40 or 50, who whenever anybody in the group posted a photo, they gave it 3 TU. One bloke had accumulated a gazillion points, and there were fearsome debates in the forums about the whole thing. Fearsome and sometimes very nasty.

So much so, that the whole site had to be evolved into v2, and they introduced complying critiques - if the critique didn't comply, the points didn't count. To comply, your critique needed some substance - nice shot wouldn't cut it. (I gather they have some sort of software filtering system). A bunch of other restrictions (mostly positive IMO) were introduced to prevent a recurrence of previous problems. And amazingly, it was all just about egos, there weren't any prizes or any such thing.

It was an amzing time at this site with thousands and thousands of members - I'm sure a lot of you would have been there at different times.

The fellow with the points was also at usefilm.com on a similar quest.

(I am not relating this to lejazzcat's suggestion in any way, it is a different kettle of fish. Just thought it was of moderate interest in the context of the discussion, and Jordan mentioned the site)

[stubbsy]

Wow. This thread got away from me and I've just read through it.

I'm not keen on points either. A scoring system is subjective unless there are very rigorous "rules since my idea of technical quality (or whatever) can easily be different to yours given we all bring different skills and insghts to the table.

Additionally if someone says "I love your shot but it could have worked better for me if you did X" is better feedback on improving my (admittedly limited) skills than a score of 6/10 or 2/10 since I know WHY the assessment was made rather than just having a number. I could ramble on more, but much of what I'd say has already been said...

[Mj]

Clearly this issue is one of significant interest I had some discussion with people last Saturday on photo review and critic. One of my suggestions was to have everyone who posts a pic for review include a more detailed set of info... this would include the basic info like shutter speed, aperture, lens used, etc etc but I think for at least some pics maybe should include some details on what you were trying to achieve so the evaluation might be able to be more contextual. I know that in theory you can look at the exif... but that does not always give all the details, depending on the PP done and I think many (including myself) don't have the time to download and extract the exif for each pic.
We could set this up to enforce this as a standard, but I have suggested that at this point just to make it a voluntary, manual thing...

What do you think???

[lejazzcat]

Clearly this issue is one of significant interest I had some discussion with people last Saturday on photo review and critic. One of my suggestions was to have everyone who posts a pic for review include a more detailed set of info... this would include the basic info like shutter speed, aperture, lens used, etc etc but I think for at least some pics maybe should include some details on what you were trying to achieve so the evaluation might be able to be more contextual. I know that in theory you can look at the exif... but that does not always give all the details, depending on the PP done and I think many (including myself) don't have the time to download and extract the exif for each pic.
We could set this up to enforce this as a standard, but I have suggested that at this point just to make it a voluntary, manual thing...

What do you think???

I most definately agree and second the motion.

File Format
Metering
Shutter
Aperture
EXP-+
Focal length
EXP mode

should at least tell us what the camera was doing at the time .