It was no prize-egg..

[beetleboy]

As a matter of public record I would just like to post that Birddog114 has refused to honour his prize donation for the Egg challenge.

It has been 2 months and 1 week since I won the comp and I'm yet to receive the prize. Now, before you think I'm being ungrateful, there's more to this than meets the eye.

Over the past 2 months I have requested updates from Birddog and have had obscure responses (if any). Now it turns out he has had the camera in his possession since approximately the 14th September (according to his claim in an email to me) but he had been "holding (my) prize in (his) stock couple weeks now" due to his issues with this forum.

I will refrain from posting some of the outrageous emails I have received from Birddog for the time being, but I thought people should know where this is at and how much grief this is causing me.

Winning a comp isn't supposed to be a punishment for something you have no control over.

This is not the first time I have had discrepancies with Birddog and I urge the members of this and any other forum to be careful in your dealings with him.

Thanks for your time. PS - I would like to thank Gary for his support thru this debacle.....

[gstark]

It truly saddens me, more than anyone can begin to imagine, to see Liam make this post.

As can be inferred, I've been aware of this situation for a few weeks now.

Indeed, I was not simply surprised, but shocked and disappointed to hear Liam tell me, in about mid September, that he had yet to see the camera that Thanh had promised to him - the winner of the Egg challenge - some five or six weeks earlier.

Please permit me to add a bit of background to this.

Liam has sent Thanh a number of emails asking for an update on the status of this. Liam's questions were simple, courteous, and straightforward.

Thanh's responses - when forthcoming - have often been less than helpful. I hope that Liam doesn't need to post those messages.

But then I had sincerely hoped that Thanh would meet his public commitment to Liam and arrange for the prompt delivery of the promised camera.

Please note carefully what I have said: Thanh's commitment was not to me, nor was it to DSLRusers. It was a clear, public commitment to the winner of the Egg challenge. That is Liam.

As an example of the sort of things that have been happening, almost two weeks ago Thanh made it clear that he was holding Liam's camera, and that, at that time, it had been in his possession for about two weeks. With that knowledge, Liam sent Thanh another email, suggesting that someone in Sydney collect the camera from Thanh, and then arrange for the delivery to Liam. This seemed to all (who knew of this situation) to be a good compromise, but Liam's email to Thanh remains, to my knowledge, unanswered.

While Liam thanks me for my support, I need to make it clear that others have also been acting on Liam's behalf, and they too need to be thanked for their efforts in trying to get this matter resolved in a satisfactory manner. Specifically, both Matt K, and John Carnell (whom most of you may know as Sir Tristram (the administrator/owner of digitalslr.com.au) have each spent a long time on the phone talking with Thanh about this matter, but, sadly, with no result.

Now a message for everybody - I appreciate that this is avery difficult topic for all to digest. Please keep all of your observations and comments civil, and please, keep all of your comments concise and on topic.

My only hope in all of this is that Thanh will see that members - of all forums - will be disappointed in this current situation, and that he will provide the promised camera.

That is my only wish.

[sirhc55]

This is a most unfortunate and regrettable state of affairs.

Whatever the reasons for Birddog’s disdain for this forum it should not be a reason for you not to receive your prize.

Birddog publically offered prizes in the egg challenge and to best of my knowledge all have received their prize with the exception of yourself.

This is not acceptable. To go back on ones word is not honourable and I hope that he comes to his senses and gives you your rightfull prize.

Liam I feel for you and I am very angry that this should have happened to a worthy winner.

[Willy wombat]

Liam - So sorry to hear this sad news. Sounds like you have been dealt a shitty hand here mate.

[blacknstormy]

Liam - as an active member on both forums, I find this latest news extremely disappointing to say the least. I can only hope that this issue is finally resolved in the way that it should be - with the delivery of your prize.

Rel

[christiand]

Liam,

I'm very sad to learn that you have had been frustrated by or have had a bad experience with birddog.
As suggested by Gary I will keep this civil; however I'd also like to make it publicly known that I have been very frustrated with Birddog recently.
I hope that your issue is being resolved soon.

Cheers,
CD

[Manta]

I feel for you Liam.

I received my printer (2nd prize) very promptly.

That Challenge, it's winners and their subsequent prizes should have at all times been held separate to the politics of the two forums.

A sad situation that should be resolved as gentlemen resolve things.

[Geoff]

Sad and sorry news Liam - I hope this can be resolved finally, effectively and as peacefully as possible.

[Reschsmooth]

This is a message primarily for Gary, and I just want to say, as a relatively new member (only about 2.5 months), I have seen Gary, as the quasi-paternal figure of this 'community', operate this forum in such a professional way, as illustrated by his post above, that, in some way, should be applauded.

I don't have a point to this post, and it can be deleted if appropriate (this is a post cricket/beer post), but, Liam, I hope your issue is resolved to a satisfactory conclusion soon.

P

[beetleboy]

Thank you everyone for the overwhelming support. This is the kind of thing that makes a forum a community.

Sorry I forgot to thank Matt K, and John Carnell personally..thank you so much guys - I really do appreciate all the effort you've put in.

You know I could have waited 6 months for the prize, as long as I had a clear idea of what was going on but as outlined previously, this thing has been going round and round in cryptic circles.

I really do hope this gets resolved but Thanh has pretty much pulled the plug on it....twice! Did I say cryptic?!

[gstark]

Patrick,

Thank you for the kind words. I make no pretence about being an expert in any sort of matter; I simply try to do my best. Some people appreciate that, and that is fine.

Others do not. That is beyond my control, however, and thus, while I may not like how they react, it too is fine.

I really do hope this gets resolved but Thanh has pretty much pulled the plug on it....twice! Did I say cryptic?!

"Cryptic" is way too kind a description, IMHO.

I must honestly say that I'm in awe of Liam's patience and the manner with which he has handled himself in dealing with this issue.

[the foto fanatic]

Well, this is frustrating and disappointing.

While no-one can deny that Birddog has been extremely generous in the past by donating many prizes to this forum, it is sad that Liam's prize is effectively being withheld because of some dispute (perceived or real) with other people. Liam has had no control over that.

That being said, the fact that so many people entered the competition in the expectation that a prize was going to be awarded to the winner leaves every one of us the loser.

I would be proud to make a donation towards the replacement of Liam's rightful prize.

[MHD]

As competition organsier I would like to offer my apologies for what has transpired...

Much carefull analysis has occured from what has happened and I can conidently say that the chances of this happening again in the future have been greatly reduced...

[sirhc55]

I fully support Trevor’s generous offer to make a donation towards making Liam’s prize a realisation. So count me in for a donation.

[Alex]

I fully support Trevor’s generous offer to make a donation towards making Liam’s prize a realisation. So count me in for a donation.

me 3.

Alex

[blacknstormy]

Donation from me too - but would be very sad if it came to that - I'm hoping that common sense and honour will prevail.... but if not, count me in.

[Geoff]

I'm more than willing to chip in and offer a donation..

[fozzie]

Please add me to the list for a donation.

Liam - should you need a D70, I am willing to loan you mine until this situation is recitified one way or another. It will be available from Saturday 21st October, 2006. Please send me a PM. BTW: the camera has had the 'BGLOD' repaired under warranty by Maxwell's.

fozzie

[thaddeus]

As a matter of public record I would just like to post that Birddog114 has refused to honour his prize donation for the Egg challenge.
...
Now it turns out he has had the camera in his possession since approximately the 14th September (according to his claim in an email to me) but he had been "holding (my) prize in (his) stock couple weeks now" due to his issues with this forum.

I had a look at the emails and did not see anything that supported what you are saying. It could be that there are other emails that I haven't seen, so if there is anything that supports what you are saying, I'd be happy to receive it via PM.

What I did see was birdy asking for more time to get it to you and asking for you to hold on until the end of the week, by which he meant Sunday which is when he would be back home. However, you interepreted it as Friday (when he was interstate) and thought that some kind of deadline had been broken.

It's a pity that someone has donated something for the competition and receives public complaints that they aren't giving stuff away quickly enough! Talk about biting the hand that feeds you - future donors will think twice about donating a prize if threads like this are posted.

I understand your frustration, but please understand that Birdy has a full-time job, a family and recently a lot of business travel and a family tragedy. He has donated (and delivered!) many, many prizes out of goodwill, so I think it would be nice to offer him some goodwill in return.

[gstark]

As a matter of public record I would just like to post that Birddog114 has refused to honour his prize donation for the Egg challenge.
...
Now it turns out he has had the camera in his possession since approximately the 14th September (according to his claim in an email to me) but he had been "holding (my) prize in (his) stock couple weeks now" due to his issues with this forum.

I had a look at the emails and did not see anything that supported what you are saying. It could be that there are other emails that I haven't seen, so if there is anything that supports what you are saying, I'd be happy to receive it via PM.

That would certainly seem to be the case, Thaddeus.

Clearly, you've not seen Thanh's email message to Liam dated 28/09/2006, at 10:26 AM, in which he said "I’m holding your prize in my stock couple weeks now".

On the previous day, in a phone call with Matt K, Thanh apparantly told Matt that he already had the camera for Liam. This is Matt's post on that issue - September 27, 2:29 pm:

"Thahn rang me a short while ago and we discussed the matter of Liams prize. Thahn said he has always intended to honour this but was pissed off about Gary being involved. He said he has the camera at this moment and is awaiting contact from Liam. So please pass that on to Liam and hopefully this particular incident will be settled."

Liam took this up with Thanh, and even offerred a suggestion to Thanh that he arrange somebody local to collect the camera from Thanh. That suggestion was ignored.

For a whole week.

Note Matt's comment that Thanh was "was pissed off about Gary being involved" Be that as it may, this was already seven weeks after the Challenge had finished, but so what? Thanh being pissed off with me has nothing at all to do with the delivery, to Liam, of Liam's prize.

It's irrellevant.

A personal note here: Thanh may be pissed off with me, but please be aware that I hold no malice towards Thanh, nor anyone else. I am sorry that some people seem to hold anger, for whatever reason. Life is too short for that sort of thing: people need to move on.

What I did see was birdy asking for more time to get it to you and asking for you to hold on until the end of the week, by which he meant Sunday which is when he would be back home.

The problem with this approach is that Thanh, by his own admission, had been holding the camera for two weeks. That was back on September 27.

If he had been holding the camera since, say, September 14 or thereabouts, why did he simply not send it to Liam? What possible reason could there be be for such a delay?

And today is October 15. One must presume that if he had the camera on September 27, then he still has it now.

How much time does it take to pack and arrange for the shipment of this? My thoughts are that four plus weeks, given the timings that Thanh has offerred to us, would surely be plenty.

But there's more: we're overlooking the fact that Thanh comfirmed his promise of the camera to the prizewinner back in early August. I only became aware of this problem on September 8, a month after Thanh had reaffirmed his commitment to this prize.

That said, it was not until September 25 that an initial email was sent to Thanh, asking about when his offer of a prize to Liam might be honoured.

Please note that at this time, and extrapolating from Thanh's email sent just three days later, he'd already been in possession of Liam's camera for about ten or so days.

So, when asked about the delay in delivering Liam's camera, Thanh, rather than offering the fact that the camera was in his possession, and arranging for its immediate delivery, expressed dissatisfaction that Liam had sought some support on trying to secure his prize.

From Thanh's email to me ... Sept 25, 9:55 am

2/ Prize for Challenge #10:

Did I say NO to him? I can only do what I could and I do with what I said, tell Liam talk to me.

If he wishes to talk to you rather than me, then it’s his choice.

I immediately passed Thanh's suggestion - That Liam again make direct contact with Thanh to arrange delivery of the prize - back to Liam, and Liam then again attempted to have Thanh address the issue, with a very simple request: an ETA for the camera.

Thanh's response was ... amazing. I will leave it to Liam to post that message if he sees fit, but I was astounded at the content. The message was sent by Thanh on September 26, 9:46 am, and to say that it contained absolutely nothing of substance regarding delivery of Liam's prize would be a significant case of understatement.

Again, bear in mind that Thanh stated, on September 27, that he had had the camera for about two weeks.

If Thanh already had the camera, in his possession, why did he not see fit to make arrangements for its delivery within that email on September 26?

It just defies all logic.

It's a pity that someone has donated something for the competition and receives public complaints that they aren't giving stuff away quickly enough!

Actually, while Thanh has been most generous in the past, he has failed to honour his commitment to Liam - not to me, and not to DSLRUSers, but to Liam - for this prize.

It's not a matter of "quickly enough"; This has been going on for well over two months, and the problem was not raised with Thanh as an issue until (a) after ablout seven weeks, and (b) almost two weeks after he says he tookl delvery of the camera.

Perhaps you need to ask Thanh to show you all of the emails that he has sent to Liam. He has repeatedly and consistently avoided the question of when he will make the camera available, despite telling Liam that he has the camera in his possession, and despite telling Matt K that he has the camera in his possession.

FWIW, Matt K, Glen, John Carnell (Sir Tristram), Steve Arvey (avlomp), and Manta have been fully briefed on this matter. Perhaps a query with any of them might yield confirmation of the dates, times and content of the messages I'm referring to.

Again, the question is a very simple one: if Thanh has had the camera since about September 14, why has he not made arrangements for its prompt delivery? Indeed, when offered the choice for having someone local (Sydney or Newcastle) collect the camera from him he ignored that request.

Rather than making those arrangements, he's been .... well, I don't know, but I do know that other people have been recieving their gear from him, so it's not exactly the case that he's not been arranging for other deliveries in the interim.

If he's been arranging for other deliveries, and if he has the camera ... where's the problem? Why the delay?

It defies all logic.

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you - future donors will think twice about donating a prize if threads like this are posted.

Maybe, but I see no shortage of donors here.

I think it's also fair to say that prizewinners have a reasonable expectation to actually see their prize within a reasonable timeframe.

[beetleboy]

Firstly, I was wondering how on earth I was going to compile everything that has transpired over the past 2+months but Gary has just done that for me! Thanks again Gary!

Secondly (but just as importantly) thank you so much to everyone offering donations, that really is incredibly generous and not at all expected.

I feel guilty as I was hoping the D70s would be a great backup to my D200 (I sold my D70 when I won the comp, expecting a nice new backup body) but fozzie I may take you up on the offer if I get a job that requires 2 bodies, as does occassionally happen.

Thaddeus, I feel Gary has answered your questions very well and I don't feel it's necessary and or logical for me to PM the emails to you. If any emails are to be shared they will be shared openly as I prefer for this to be completely transparent.

The underlying problem here is that Thanh clearly has a non-mutual issue with Gary which he has chosen to take out on me.

[thaddeus]

Gary, thank you for your lengthy reply, however there is nothing there that supports beetleboy's key assertions, ie nowhere does it show that birdy has refused to honour the prize or is holding it due to issues with this forum.

[beetleboy]

On the previous day, in a phone call with Matt K, Thanh apparantly told Matt that he already had the camera for Liam. This is Matt's post on that issue - September 27, 2:29 pm:

"Thahn rang me a short while ago and we discussed the matter of Liams prize. Thahn said he has always intended to honour this but was pissed off about Gary being involved. He said he has the camera at this moment and is awaiting contact from Liam. So please pass that on to Liam and hopefully this particular incident will be settled."

Thaddeus, I think you need to reread Gary's reply.

As to refusing to honour the prize, this is from his latest email to me:

"Good luck!!!!!!!
Hope the Starks and other will solve the issue for you, that's the way you have choosen.
If you don't want the prize to be delivered to you in the coming week after my returning to Sydney, then do it, and you've already done!
Thankyou!!!!!!!!"

I will add here that at no point prior to this had he told me he'd be sending the prize next week. The previous email simply said he'd contact me on Monday/Tuesday and I asked:

"What are going to tell me on Monday or Tuesday that you couldn't tell me in your response today?"

He's yet to answer that question.

[Justin]

Sorry to hear about this situation.

It seems straightforward if you remove emotion / words:

(a) here's your prize, delays, unavoidable, but here you go and enjoy!
(b) sorry, circumstances have changed, can't do it, apologies.

Closure of some kind rather than eternal hope / doubt.

[gstark]

If any emails are to be shared they will be shared openly as I prefer for this to be completely transparent.

A couple of points need to be made here.

First of all, Thanh has already been advised that the contents of his communications with Liam may be made public, and it is up to Liam should he choose to take that action.

Second, for those who remain doubtful about this - and I believe and understand that there could be quite a few - might I suggest that they review Manta's posts within this thread, or perhaps ask Sir Tristram or avkomp. Please remember that they have been fully briefed on the underlying facts, and they may offer a valuable perspective, based upon full knowledge of the facts, that others can only speculate about.

Third, a reminder - and thus far the discussion has been great and kept to the point of Liam's absent prize. Let's maintain that focus, please.

Finally, I fully support the concept of some form of collection to help take up where the ball seems to have been dropped. I hope it doesn't come to that, but I'm prepared to fully support that idea if the need arises.

[beetleboy]

Exactly Justin..

Instead I've been held to ransom in some kind of game.

[gstark]

Thaddeus

The previous email simply said he'd contact me on Monday/Tuesday and I asked:

"What are going to tell me on Monday or Tuesday that you couldn't tell me in your response today?"

Or the previous week?

Or the week prior to that?

Again, remember that Thanh stated, on Spetember 27, to two different individuals, that he was already in possession of Liam's camera?

What would there be that Thanh could say other than "What's your address?", and why did he not ask that question on ... September 27?

[the foto fanatic]

Gary, thank you for your lengthy reply, however there is nothing there that supports beetleboy's key assertions, ie nowhere does it show that birdy has refused to honour the prize or is holding it due to issues with this forum.

I think there is enough evidence to the contrary.

It's natural for you to want to stand by your friend thaddeus, no-one has a problem with that.

Perhaps you could use your endeavors to have the prize delivered and have this matter finalised.

[obzelite]

i dont know if this helps, but there always seems to be a misunderstanding in communications via email with Birddog.

I received an email from him saying I could take my business elsewhere after I somehow got mentioned in someone else's email to him. I'm still unsure how I got involved and it was later explained to him that my mention in the email was incorrect, but I still haven’t received a reply from him regarding an enquiry for a lowepro bag.

i really think someone needs to pick up the phone to sort it out rather than keep posting here.

[Manta]

I'm in for any donation.

I concur 100% with Gary's summation of events and am fully aware of the efforts that have been made to resolve this matter.

I have my own opinion on the events that have occured and I echo what I have already stated in the initial posts on this thread - the Challenge should have never been linked to the politics and the personal relationships involved.

The forum split occured shortly after the Challenge had been run and won. At that time, Thanh was in somewhat of a quandary as to whether he should proceed with the provision of the promised prizes, concerned that it may be seen as supporting Gary, the mods and the dslru forum. At that point I was not fully across all the issues relating to Thanh's departure from here but I told him that, regardless, as the man of integrity I believed, and would like to still believe, him to be, he was bound to honour his commitment to the prizewinners. His contract was with them, not with Gary or anyone else so his support would not be percieved as giving in or placating those with whom he now had problems. He agreed with my sentiments and I thought that would be the end of it.

I know Thanh has had his share of issues recently. He has, however, been polite, respectful and courteous to many of his clients over that time and has overseen the delivery of many orders. Sure, there have been some hiccups but, in the main, things appear to be improving. That being said, I still cannot understand why he has not sorted this matter out with Liam. I'm not going to tell him how to feel or put words in his mouth - he has been a friend to me across both forums to this point and I truly hope that will continue. However, friends should be able to tell friends when they have it wrong. I am guilty of not raising the issue with Thanh since he first discussed it with me just after the Challenge. I felt if I did he would see me as linked with Gary and perhaps sever any further contact. I wanted to maintain the good relationship we had until I was in possession of the whole story. That only occurred within the last week or so.

I expect Thanh is aware of this thread but he and everyone else reading it must know that it was a last ditch effort to try to engage some affirmative action. Many will make their own minds up about what has transpired here but very few are actually in possession of all the salient facts.

The rift between Gary and Thanh should probably never have occurred, but it did and that's sad. The time to discuss that in public has long passed and it should just be left to them to sort out. However, to use that as an excuse to hold back on a promise to a third party is, I believe, very difficult to justify. I really hope Thanh reconsiders his position and acts like the old Thanh would have, honouring his commitments.

[gstark]

i really think someone needs to pick up the phone to sort it out rather than keep posting here.

Simon,

That too has been tried, by several people, and on more than one occasion.

Thaddeus,

While I cannot speak on behalf of Liam, I'm sure he would welcome any positive input that you might care to offer in this regard.

And also, Thaddeus, regarding your statement "there is nothing there that supports beetleboy's key assertion": you say you've seen some emails, but it would seem that you haven't been shown, by your sources, the ones that I have specifically referred to by day and date. Have you referred back to your sources to locate and view those specific messages?

[gstark]

I'm in for any donation.

I concur 100% with Gary's summation of events and am fully aware of the efforts that have been made to resolve this matter.

Simon,

Thank you for your support, and your words of wisdom and commonsense.

I think you know well enough my feelings, and that my only concern in supporting Liam here is the same as your's: to see his prize delivered.

[stubbsy]

i dont know if this helps, but there always seems to be a misunderstanding in communications via email with Birddog.<snip>
i really think someone needs to pick up the phone to sort it out rather than keep posting here.

Simon. My understanding is there has been a fair amount of emails between Liam and Thanh and some calls and face to face contact between Thanh and others trying to resolve this. I think Liam's frustration led to his posting here. Remember this is about delivery of a prize "donated" in early August.

which brings me to this:

It's a pity that someone has donated something for the competition and receives public complaints that they aren't giving stuff away quickly enough

I'd say public complaints 8 weeks after something promised for delivery hasn't eventuated would be reasonable be they prizes or purchases.

I'm not privvy to the circumstances alluded to by ChristianD at the start of this thread, but it would seem that Liam's problems may not be the only difficulties with Thanh.

I've spent considerable time in the past with Thanh and his family and always considered him to be a generous and honorable man. I've been aware of Liam's problem for a short while now and puzzled by some of the out of character actions/inaction by Thanh since they were in conflict with that observation. My hope has been that this would be resolved, but as time passes this seems less and less likely.

Liam - I'm more than willing to kick in for a prize for you should it come to that.

[leek]

My word!!! Everyone seems to be sticking their oar in, so I might as well too... I haven't made any posts here since the last flurry of unreasonable threads about Thanh, but feel compelled to now...

Many people in this thread seem very keen to judge and make rash statements. Some others seem more than keen to twist the knife in old wounds...

I haven't been privy to the e-mails in question nor any of the other communications that have happened on this subject, but I do know the following:
- written communication with Thanh can be interpreted any which way you want and probably not the way he intended... Personally I always seek clarification on what he actually meant... One misunderstanding can lead to another and things quickly degrade from there...
- Thanh's family's activities have been heavily restricted during September & October by a 50-day period of mourning that Vietnamese tradition demands following the death of a close family member...
- Over the last couple of weeks, Thanh has been very busy at work, and has been working at a location that did not allow full internet access...
For those who haven't seen it, Thanh posted the following apology on October 10th on the other forum:

All,
Due to my heavy commitment at works + my time away from Sydney a lot during the last couple weeks + No internet allowed or be accessed at the contract work places, so I haven't been on the forum lately but I replied all your emails thru all my email's accounts, not instantly as before but I only do when or where I could.

There's a back log of orders, I'll fullfill them no later than the end of next week once my Sony busy period is over, out of the restriction of freedom to surf the NET and business will back to normal.

To compensate those delayed orders (over $500.00), I'll have some surprises in the box for whom placed orders with me in the last few weeks.

Pls. accept my sincere apologizes for the inconvenience caused

Furthermore, I'd suggest that any further veiled accusations or negative comments about Thanh in this thread or speculation about his intentions will only make it less likely that Liam might receive his prize...

[EOM]

[beetleboy]

To put this all out in the open (and this is not intended in anyway to be a slam against Thanh, it's a simple statement of the facts):

From: Liam West
Sent: Tuesday, 26 September 2006 10:10 AM
To: Thanh Ho
Subject: D70s..

Hi Thanh..

Just wondering if you have an ETA on the D70s? My old man is heading off to
New Zealand very soon and he'd like to take my D70 with him and it'd be good
to have the D70s to take it's place as my backup.

Cheers!

On 26/09/2006, at 9:46 AM, Thanh Ho wrote:


I thought you are already deal directly with the Stark and he said that I
never reply to your email therefore you deal with him directly from now on.
I'm sick of this, I do what I could, but you want him to stick his nose on
my business, that's your choice.
I don't care about what did you talk or write to him and it's your business.
I know what I can do or what I can get, no one can force me anything or
looking over my business.

From: Liam West
Sent: Tuesday, 26 September 2006 10:26 AM
To: Thanh Ho
Subject: Re: D70s..

Sorry Thanh,

People were asking me how I was enjoying my new "toy", that's all - I obviously had to tell them I didn't have it yet.

I am dealing directly with Gary because he is concerned for me and wants to help me.

I didn't imply anything in my email and simply requested an answer to my question - that's all I ask. Please.

Liam West

From: "Thanh Ho"
Date: 26 September 2006 10:03:56 AM
To: "'Liam West'"
Subject: RE: D70s..

Liam,

Once you deal directly with the Stark, pls. don’t come and ask me anymore, coz you know he can help you out but I’m not.



So there you go, Sorry I have no obligation or commitment with him or his forum same as his wishes as you learned and known.



I got clearly on his email that you said, I never or didn’t reply your email, so pls. let him look after you.

From: Liam West
Sent: Wednesday, 27 September 2006 8:23 PM
To: Thanh Ho
Subject: Re: D70s..

Hi Thanh..

Sorry if there seems to have been some kind of miscommunication. I'm not representing anyone but myself - anything said by anyone else about anything is their doing. I'm only interested in one thing and that's the prize that I earned. I understand that you don't feel any obligation or commitment to DSLRusers but it's not very fair that you take it out on me. I've been looking forward to the prize for a long time and I'm now upset that you seem to have decided not to follow thru with it.

I beg you to please reconsider. What more can I do? Also, my accountant keeps asking for my D200 invoice; would you be able to email it thru to me please?

Thank you Thanh.

Liam West

On 28/09/2006, at 10:26 AM, Thanh Ho wrote:

Liam,



1/ I don’t think there’s a miscommunication in between anyone of this game which the Starks had begun while ago and it’s the pure intentions from them.



2/ Fortunately, I’ve read few threads & discussions of their high-ups in their closed door section lately and surprised me they want to drag these sagas longer than I expected; all they want to do is dragging me down to the bottom and they hope it’ll create better solutions for their businesses. I don’t care about it anymore.



3/ They promoted people and backstabbing them later or talking behind few people and promoted them in later date. They still keep talking behind many people which they parted or got banned on their forum same as other site.



4/ They thought: I’m still under their control and supervision and I have to do what they want or ask, they still want to order me to follow their directions, and believe me or not: It’s not going to happen. This is my business, do or don’t is my decision or how I do or run my business is also my choice, if I’m bad, then I loose my customers, that’s simple. If anyone has problems in dealing with me, then talk to me direct or seeking advice or option from Fair Trading Office.



5/ As I mentioned and said many times to many members on both forums: I’ll never cut & run same as I never ever had my thoughts of bringing suffering or hard time to anyone in my life, I respected what did you earned same as we used to have a very good friendship and relationship in trading in the past, no way that I hurt you or not doing the right thing to you, but according to yours and Gary’s email, it indicated the way which you wanted and wished Gary come into your party and sort it out for you, I also learned: he’s proposing to do something for you instead of, correct me if I’m wrong.



It’s his choice to stick his nose in my business and my way, as same as at the beginning of what was happened in June + July this year. Sorry, it’s not working that way



Liam, I never took it out on you and never think that way, but wishing to see what the next game they are going to play. I’m holding your prize in my stock couple weeks now since I learned that they are going to have some funs on me.



Regards,

Thanh Ho

From: Liam West
Sent: Thursday, 28 September 2006 2:58 PM
To: Thanh Ho
Subject: Re: D70s..

I think you need to understand that the only person suffering out of this me. Regardless of any doings of anyone else, it's my camera that you're holding onto and I'm the only one dealing with that situation.

I don't understand why you've been holding onto it for a couple of weeks. I just don't understand Thanh. If you hadn't been holding onto it then people wouldn't have been asking me why I don't have it? I don't get it.

Thanks for sending my D200 invoice.

Liam West

I received no response so continued with another option for Thanh, to make it easier for him to sort this thing out once and for all:

From: Liam West
Sent: Friday, 29 September 2006 10:09 AM
To: Thanh Ho
Subject: Re: D70s..

Ok..how does this sound to you?

I can arrange for someone to pick up the camera from your base either today or over the weekend and they can arrange to get it to me..that way you and I can wash our hands of this! There may be a possibility of pickup from Newcastle if that's more convenient for you?

What do you think?

Liam West

As you can see, according to Thanh's last response to me in this series, he had the camera in his possession before my initial and very innocent question to him. Which means he was already planning on holding onto it when I first asked what the ETA was.

Then there was the offer of a local pickup - to which I never received a reply.

It should have been a simple process but somewhere along the line a short-circuit occured....I'll let you decide where that was.

[beetleboy]

Leek..I understand that people have a life outside of the internet, truly I do!

However, if you read thru the emails I've just posted you will see that there is no mention of ""being busy" etc. At no point does Thanh ask me to please be patient because things are hectic..I could have understood that and would have respected that. Instead I was accused of "going behind his back" and pretty much siding with Gary (God forbid!).

[stubbsy]

Thanh's family's activities have been heavily restricted during September & October by a 50-day period of mourning that Vietnamese tradition demands following the death of a close family member...

I must confess I know nothing about this tradition since I'm not Vietnamese (I do however know how painful it is to lose someone who is close to you). So this may be a dumb assumption on my part but I'd doubt that means that you close down your business and personal dealings with those outside close family for that period.

[sheepie]

Given this very clear and full listing of communication between Thanh and Liam, can I suggest everyone just take a few days to let this settle before continuing with this debate on whether the facts are true or not. I'd hate to see this thread going the same way as a few others a couple of months ago.

Let's focus on the positives of this forum and move on.

Let's also give Thanh another chance to honour his committment made at the beginning of the challenge concerned, and re-stated here shortly after the winners were announced.

If that committment is not met, then let's deal with it as a community - I am encouraged by the offers of donations, and would think that there will be enough to cover the cost of a body - IF THAT IS REQUIRED. I hope it's not required.

I personally would like to see this thread locked for now - at least for the next couple of days. The problem is out there, people now know about it, let's see what happens.

[stubbsy]

FWIW my view is that Liam won't be getting his prize. I think it's time to draw a line under this whole sorry affair and move on. The best way I see to do that is to set up the Egg Challenge prize fund to get Liam his camera. I'm happy to donate. How do we go about organising this?

[gstark]

Thanh's family's activities have been heavily restricted during September & October by a 50-day period of mourning that Vietnamese tradition demands following the death of a close family member...

I must confess I know nothing about this tradition since I'm not Vietnamese (I do however know how painful it is to lose someone who is close to you). So this may be a dumb assumption on my part but I'd doubt that means that you close down your business and personal dealings with those outside close family for that period.

Being Jewish, we have a similar tradition in our culture, and thus being aware of the possibility of something like this, I actually made some enquires as to whether there was something similar within Thanh's culture that I needed to be aware of and senstitive to.

My enquiries suggested there was nothing I needed to consider in this regard, and while those enquiries may not have given me the correct outcome, Thanh's activities, such as holding meets at his base, seemed to confirm that he was back to undertaking business as usual.

That said,

Let's also give Thanh another chance to honour his committment made at the beginning of the challenge concerned, and re-stated here shortly after the winners were announced.

...

I personally would like to see this thread locked for now - at least for the next couple of days.

Which I happen to think is an exceptionally good idea.

Stubbsy, can we put a hold on that for a day or so?

If others feel an urgent neet to pass a comment, please send a PM to any of the mods, who will be happy to discuss the matter.

Thaddeus, Leek, Beetleboy, if you have anything further to offer, please ask one of the mods.