Studio Flash Setup

[!~DeViNe~DaRkNeSs~!]

Hi all!
I'm kinda new to all this, i have been offered to work along-side my Mrs's friend who is a make-up artist. He wishes me to take sum snaps for his portfolio and in turn i can use them for mine
Plain and simple i will need a new flash, on-board will just not cut it!
so my options stand as getting a cheap sigma flash - $335 or go Canon - $385+ or i am currently looking at this setup from u guessed it..Ebay! http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=290069651897&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=019
What i want to know is will this be the better option? i intend on doing more studio shoots in the future so this is how i justify buying this. Also how do i fire these flashes? i know they operate as slave to the on-board flash but is there a way i can sync them direct to the camera? he wants 95% of the shoot to be done with a plain background (i will make a stand from PVC pipes) and maybe a few bikini shots at the beach where i know these flashes are useless.
Another thing, my on-board flash restricts the shutter speed to a max of 1/200, i'm guessing with a flash setup like this 1/200 may be too slow, is there any way to by-pass this 1/200 restriction?
Thanks sooo much for helping (in advance)

[wendellt]

hi

it's great you have an opportunity to work with a makeup artist youll have lots of fun and learn heaps

i suggest you just buy a standard speedlight for the canon like the 580-ex
the light is very similar to what you get with a cheap studio strobe
you just need to know how to use it effectively

once you get more practice with the speedlight you can invest in a studio light kit

in regards to the sync issue most cheap strobes can only sync to 1/250
same as the speedlight but i think on the canon you can set the camera to ignore flash sync at 1/250 and go higher

1/250 is fast enough for action shots and for static poses woudl be more than enough

you can also use the speedlight on location
make sure you experiment with speedlight lighting and give yourself full freedom with the flash on a remote cord

more expensive strobe lights can sync up to much higher speeds

[!~DeViNe~DaRkNeSs~!]

So Wendellt u recommend i scrap the 2 strobes and go with a speedlite? i just thought it may be better to have a full setup with the 2 strobes and then get a speedlight (later on) for future off-site shoots? hmmm interesting. i just feel that i need to have no shadows on the subjects face and with one flash on or off camera will cast shadows. hehe uve got me really lost now i was thinking the studio was gunna be the best bet.... help?
maybe if i bought the studio set-up and on this ocassion hire a speedlight as well? the $$ of the 580EX scares me alillte

[wendellt]

you can buy two speedlights if you want to get that balanced lighting look

but with the cost of two flashes you can easily buy those cheaper studio lighting kit

so it's a question of your budget

but i can tell you having two flashes will be more versatile than 2 really cheap studio lights
since you would need at least 1 flash for general work the cost of the 2nd is the added investment

[!~DeViNe~DaRkNeSs~!]

that is very true!
well i know portrait work (indoors) will be a common thing that i will be required to do in the future. this shoot we are planning will be around mid - late Feb which gives me a bit but not much time
would a canon 430ex do the job? i just find $500+ for the 580EX is rather large this i spose explains my budget too....very little lol!
part of y 2 lights for $300 seems great

[wendellt]

hi

yes it's kind of analagous to the nikon sb600 and sb800
the sb800 has lots of features that you wouldn't normally use
all you really need is a simple flash so the cheaper canon flash can work as a satellite flash in conjunction with the 580ex which i think is worth buying

or you can buy 2 of those cheaper flashes

I don't really know your budget or your exact intentions to scope out a proper recommendation

I can just tell you i started out with 1 flash unit learned the basics of it and applied the knowledge in many different occassions and found out you can do a hell of alot with 1 lightsource

and the need for studio strobes isn't really necassary for good results

now if you just want to forget about those speedlights the ebay option is good to it's cheap and it offers a complete solution but i don't know if its a scalable solution, i think whn your done with them you woudl discard them and re-invest in better equipment
so if you start out with speedlights you can learn heaps get some practical use out of it then invest in a proper studio setup when your crash hot with your flash acrobatics

[!~DeViNe~DaRkNeSs~!]

i did a bad bad thing
I bought the studio setup, i also plan to buy a 430ex before the shoot, that way i have total control of the setup....even tho it will cost me a bit extra
the thing im concerned about now, how can i sync the flashes to my camera? the flash units have a sync lead, i am unsure where exactly i am meant to plug this into my 400D i already know they can be fired photoelectrially with the onboad/430ex but isnt this fairly unreliable?

[DaveB]

Firing studio flashes with the onboard flash won't work too well: it's fixed in E-TTL metering, where it does metering with a pre-flash. The studio flashes will trigger on that but still be recharging when the main flash goes off.
You can trigger optical slaves with the 430EX if you set it to manual (instead of E-TTL) but then you're still stuck with a flash right over the camera.

To hook up the sync lead from the studio flashes to the 400D you will have to get a hot-shoe connector for it (a generic item available at many camera stores for $10-15). Stick that into the hot-shoe, connect the sync lead to it, add some strain-relief so the lead doesn't pop out of the socket while you're using it, and you're away!
Cameras like the 30D etc have a sync socket on the side, but the 300D/350D/400D don't.

[wendellt]

i've never used those lights mentioned on ebay so i dont know what sort of lead connector it has it may have this huge headphone jack thing or a smaller walkman type jack
but im sure it will come with a sync cord that will attach to the flash head and to flash sync terminal of your camera

otherwise you can buy this IR trigger
http://cgi.ebay.com/IR-Sender-Studio-Flash-Trigger-Wireless-New_W0QQitemZ180074719136QQihZ008QQcategoryZ30086QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

the cord is more reliable and not that annoying to use than the ir thing, outdoors it may be almost useless unless it has line of sight to the strobe

as for the speedlight triggering the strobes, it will and it's pretty reliable

[!~DeViNe~DaRkNeSs~!]

hmm well as i have found i can manually fire a pre-flash on my 400D, so would it work to preflash for focus, then wait for recharge then fire...all while holding the original focus...
thats alot of effing around huh! hahaha
ahh so under $20 huh...finally sumthing cheap!

You can trigger optical slaves with the 430EX if you set it to manual (instead of E-TTL) but then you're still stuck with a flash right over the camera.

what if i got the off camera extension cord, this would solve this problem yes? but n e way it may be benificial to have a direct flash as well to keep frontal shadows down?
This is quite an experiment huh, i thought it'd be so straight forward, boy was i wrong!

[wendellt]

yeah i would just forget the speedlight for trigering unless you use it off the camera hotshoe

but really those two studio strobes and a cord is all you need

[!~DeViNe~DaRkNeSs~!]

thanks heaps guys uve got me on the right track again
i shall re-kindle this thread when the strobes arrive, hopefully on thursday

[!~DeViNe~DaRkNeSs~!]

YAY! they arrived today i am quite impressed! they work well, the model lamp also makes a nice soft glow to the image too, i have both white and silver umbrellas, havent tried the silver one yet..
I think the sync with the onboard flash isnt too bad but u can tell it is tiny tiny bit slow. I'm VERY nervous about this model shhot i have coming up! i must find a way to be calm and confident on the day!
I havent had much of a play with the lights yet as i have no willing subjects the mrs gets home tonight but fat chance she'll get stand in front!
im still planning on getting the 430ex within the next too weeks so im looking for the cheapest source for it as well
the highest shutter speed i can get the camera too with the flash up is still only 1/200 so i think ill be stuck with that for a bit
Thanks for all the help guys! all i need now is the 430ex, a background! and sum skill!
Here's the lights

[Yi-P]

Great stuff, I'm looking forward for some sample pictures for it as well


RE: slow sync with onboard flash, did you disable pre-flashes? If you have preflashes firing, you will get a slow syn on the light which is not really what you're after using these lights.

[!~DeViNe~DaRkNeSs~!]

the camera seems to only pre flash if it cannot focus properly like taking a pic in the dark, when it has enough light it seems to only flash when taking pic

[!~DeViNe~DaRkNeSs~!]

ok ive had a quick play, im finding it very difficult because of space restrictions and lack of subjects!! in this i had a soft toy
i played with the position of the strobes to cut all shadows from the image.
there is about 60cms between subject and the backwall! and around 1.5m from the camera.
Dont know if u can see in this size but there is quite alot of dust and crap on my lens! its really showing up on the plain background with a smaller apature.
I have found i can make the image MUCH softer if i set at around 1/0.3-.5
up around the 1/100+ i get a really cold crap image....Please throw stuff at me!
our shoot is next sunday-28th!! 5 models (female) and maybe 1 guy will be subjects.....i really am panicing about the background and space confides!

OK this is what i started with:

And the final best shot of about 15 taken:

BIIIG difference huh!
the background is just the wall, a very light green tint.
at least with the 2nd image i am happy i blocked pretty much all the shadows.

[wendellt]

you seem to have the shadows under control in the 2nd shot

1. watch yoru white balance don't know what camera you have but you may have to learn how to do a preset white balance, you can of course fix white balance in photoshop but its touchy, get it right in the camera

2. i see you have space restrictions, so the lights must be quite close to the subject which is fine you'll get a softer light which is what you want for beauty shots

3. looking at the example youve shown it seems like you have the strobes on either side, thats good, you may however want to place a large piece of cardboard(or soem kind of reflector) just under your subjects chin to kick some light in there, depending on your initial results you may get soem shadows under there

and judging from the available room you have without knowing what power setting your strobes are set on

1/125 f5 ISO100 should be fine if your getting a crap image with 1/100+
yoru strobes ain't bright enough turn up to 1/2 power then 1/4 incriments till you get the desired look, there is trial and error involved but once you try like 50 times you'll nail it

remember dont shoot with a lens less than 25mm even in yoru confined space or you may get some distortion stay around 50mm for close portraits

[Oz_Beachside]

that dust could be on your sensor, which may blow off with a rocket air.

Do you have a meter? If not, as wendell said, lots of trial and error, is a great way to learn, that way you see the effect of each time you move the light, or change its power.

5 models on Sunday? Depending on your scope, I may be available to give you a hand, I know I always like to have another pair of hands, and eyes, reflector holders, kit etc.

One thing I like to do, is take a picture of the setup, that way, if I like the results when processing them, I can make reference to the setup images, and add to my notes.

[!~DeViNe~DaRkNeSs~!]

1. watch yoru white balance don't know what camera you have but you may have to learn how to do a preset white balance, you can of course fix white balance in photoshop but its touchy, get it right in the camera

3. looking at the example youve shown it seems like you have the strobes on either side, thats good, you may however want to place a large piece of cardboard(or soem kind of reflector) just under your subjects chin to kick some light in there, depending on your initial results you may get soem shadows under there

1/125 f5 ISO100 should be fine if your getting a crap image with 1/100+
yoru strobes ain't bright enough turn up to 1/2 power then 1/4 incriments till you get the desired look, there is trial and error involved but once you try like 50 times you'll nail it

remember dont shoot with a lens less than 25mm even in yoru confined space or you may get some distortion stay around 50mm for close portraits

Thanks guys ur really helping me out
my WB on my cam seems to be just presets, i will have a read about the custom settings tonight i do seem to end up with redish, orange or blue shots
i've found the slower the shutter speed the warmer the image turns out, but then of course i get vibrations if im not careful

The lens i was using is the kit 18-55mm lens my other lens is 70-300 so im kind of missing that 45 odd mm i need with the 70-300 i joked with Paul (the make-up artist) that maybe the girls can pose in the lounge and ill go out on the street and use it through the window

that dust could be on your sensor, which may blow off with a rocket air.

5 models on Sunday? Depending on your scope, I may be available to give you a hand, I know I always like to have another pair of hands, and eyes, reflector holders, kit etc.

One thing I like to do, is take a picture of the setup, that way, if I like the results when processing them, I can make reference to the setup images, and add to my notes.

It was dust!! i forked out and bought a blower/brush and a lens cloth, i carefully cleaned the lenses and then found on the CCD there was a TINY white particle, i carefull blew it away and then tested and mi gawd its a perfect image again!! whoot!

hehe thanks for the offer of ur help, i'll be ok, besides my mrs wil be WATCHING the whole event, this is all making me shit myself! i'm not myself around her so i think im going to find it hard to relax and work + get along with the models, doesnt help that Paul is as gay as they come either!!
while i was at "michaels" getting the lens kleaner i had to look at the 2nd hand lens/flash and cams out the back didnt i "drool"!! they have the older model flashes cheep ...next pay day

i have no reflectors but i do have 2 spare silver umbrellas i can prolly use to get a bit of reflection going
so far im very impressed with the stobes to say the least! they have 1/8-full pwr settings
thanks for all this help guys! its gold! so i need to work on, WB+shutter speed+light intensity!
i will have a play, unfortunatly it prolly wont be tonight as my MRS's sister had her 2nd baby yesterday so apparently we are going there tonight for a bit dammit! i have tuesday off so maybe i should call another "girl " i know as she is a model and loves getting shots taken.....just shhhhhhhh

[Oz_Beachside]

The lens i was using is the kit 18-55mm lens my other lens is 70-300 so im kind of missing that 45 odd mm i need with the 70-300 i joked with Paul (the make-up artist) that maybe the girls can pose in the lounge and ill go out on the street and use it through the window

This is not unusual. I oftne use 70-200mm for studio work, and often, I am out on my balcony, shooting through the door. It feels strange, and the model may find it hard to hear, but you get good compression, and is more flattering generally, focal length over 70-85mm.

However, if I need full length shots, I need to be down to about 45mm based on my work area (so for that I have a 28-70mm).

[wendellt]

for this sort of thing i dont think you need depth of field

using your 18-55 would be fine

youll probably shoot f5 to f8 or something for maximum depth of field


re the WB for longer exposures it woudl look more red if the camera is picking up ambient lights like from your household lightbulbs

you'll be shooting at 1/125 -1/250 for studio stuff that's not a long exposure, 1 second+ is

i have a d70 as a second camera it doesnt have great white balance controls but you cam preset white balance by lettign the camera take a reading of a white source, consult your canon manual

good luck with it and have fun!

[gstark]

It was dust!! i forked out and bought a blower/brush and a lens cloth, i carefully cleaned the lenses and then found on the CCD there was a TINY white particle, i carefull blew it away and then tested and mi gawd its a perfect image again!! whoot!

Ok ... a word of caution here.

Most blower brushes are a waste of money. In terms of blowere ability, they barely puff. Look to get something like a Giotto Rocket, which gives you a good blast of clean air.

Note my use of the term "clean" air ... when it comes to your sensor, you need to be careful: many brushes shed hair, and/also moght have various oils within the hair.

The last things your want to deal with are the odd hair on your sensor, or perhaps oil on it.

So ... never use the brush section of a blower brush - or any other brush - on your sensor. Also, never used canned air on your sensor either. There may be propellants in the can, and you don't want them all over your sensor either.

[Reschsmooth]

Wise words, Gary. Something we often don't think about (well, at least I don't).

P

[!~DeViNe~DaRkNeSs~!]

thanks gary, i was aware and didnt brush the sensor just blew it alittle and that did the job fine, although yes the blower does lack somewhat on tough bits of dust it takes a few goes. the brush seems soft and fine enough to lightly brush the lens tho but i have the cloth for that n e way its made such a difference to the pics tho! so clear!

[!~DeViNe~DaRkNeSs~!]

oops forgot to answer wendall!
i looked at the manuel last night, mi gawd is it complicated! i can use either presets which are pretty avg in my opnion, or i can focus on a white or grey background with same lighting as my subject then set that level as custom....
Next comes the hard way, there is a 4 axis graph with RGB etc on each axis, u can manually select the points of WB that u want, i think this would be excellent if u can get it right but a PITA if u have to keep fiddling! i shall play alittle more yes i had room bulbs on for the shots didnt help huh!

[wendellt]

hey devine

yes do that

'focus on a white or grey background with same lighting as my subject then set that level as custom....'

even without the strobe on you should get a better white balance result

[Mj]

Out of interest... are you able to get enough power out of those strobes.
I noticed that they are quite an attractive price but only 110Kw.

I'm sure many would be interested in what you find as you use them.

[!~DeViNe~DaRkNeSs~!]

yes they are only 110w, the umbrellas do a great job at reflecting.
So far i would safely say for portraits of say 3 ppl or less they are excellent, im thinking coupled with speedlite they would be the shizz nizz for a small group....any more than 3 ppl and i think ud struggle.
They are excellent lights from what i have learnt so far, and perfect for what i am doing and intend on doing after this model shoot

[Mj]

I'll be very very interested to see how you go with some live subjects and a better backdrop. I know that Chris already has this setup and I'd bet they'll be a number of us interested if it's all up to the job (within reason)

[gstark]

Mick,

I've been very impressed with what these little kits let you do. Yes, power sounds to be a little on the low side, but I think that many of the bigger units are perhaps aimed at a different market, and thus overdone for a home studio setup.

I've never done a comparion, but what, in terms of wattage, would the output be of, say, an SB800? While many seem happy to put all manner of faith in a pair of of 800s, I daresay that there wouldn't be too much difference if you compared the light sources on a similar basis.

And, if you consider that these kits come with brollies plus lightstands, and ordinarily these items, on their own, wouldn't cost much less than the cost of these light kits, you might wish to then consider that the lights actually cost very little indeed.