Being bullied by boss for refusing to photograph for client

[sirhc55]

But you get a say in how much you get to charge for "that price" yes?

Not all of the time. The client may say this is the budget can you do it for that price. I can then say yay or nay.

And also the choice of time and equipment etc about how you will go about your job to end up with a professional result that You & the client will be happy with. Yes?

The simple answer is yes. But more often than not there are so many variables within a job that the client may not have told you about. That is why I always made it clear that there may be extra charges if there is more to be done over the original brief.

I understand your very vaild point, but you have to put yourself in the same situation as the original poster. What if your liberties/ professionalism and rights werent thought about? Would you be upset?

I was actually making a point in relation to the OP’s comment on usage terms

You also have to consider that the OP was not an outside photographer called in to do the job but an employee that was shafted by his own boss

[gstark]

But you get a say in how much you get to charge for "that price" yes?

Not all of the time. The client may say this is the budget can you do it for that price. I can then say yay or nay.

Either way, it's still your choice to yay or nay.

[jethro]

Ron Stick by your guns.
If the boss is that desperate to shoot the stuff no matter who is the client, he will pay if he is a mate or associate or even a client of the company. This seems a business decision. Stick by your guns, if you have a registered business name etc he will have to pay the given rate and don't sell yourself short.

These guys in the long run appreciate honesty and advice,which will be the winner in most cases.

Go with your gut feeling. This is usually the best.

jethro

[team piggy]

Either way, it's still your choice to yay or nay.

if you have a registered business name etc he will have to pay the given rate and don't sell yourself short.

GST?? if a business (and registered yada yada..)
(Oh god another angle to think about..) Dont forget as your $400 is over and above your wage. Bonus? that you "will" be taxed on that, making it even less of an income +++...

Go with your gut feeling. This is usually the best.
jethro

Not after a night at the local indian food shop, "Mrs Bumburnia's curries" though..

[gstark]

Dont forget as your $400 is over and above your wage. Bonus? that you "will" be taxed on that, making it even less of an income

Now there's a thought. One wonders if Ron's boss might be expecting Ron to do this job as a cash-in-hand job, and thereby encouraging/enticing Ron to break the law?

[chrisk]

whether or not you consider $400 reasonable or not or if there are/ arent usage fees...what i cant get my head around is that there are actually asshole bosses out there that not only tell you to do a job that isnt even PART of your job...but aslo set the rate you'll do it for ! if it wasnt so serious it'd be freakin hysterical. the nerve...lol unbelievable.

[sirhc55]

But you get a say in how much you get to charge for "that price" yes?

Not all of the time. The client may say this is the budget can you do it for that price. I can then say yay or nay.

Either way, it's still your choice to yay or nay.

Aye, but I’m an independant operator who is not having to respond to my employer as in Ron’s case. Ron had the choice but under stressfull circumstances if he said no, which he did. For any boss to pull this kind of trick would make me ponder the ethics of the entire company structure and seriously consider my future.

If you stand up for your rights it does pay in the long run. Back in the 70’s I worked for two men who are both well known in the electronics retail field. When I left one job, due to a difference of opinion (read ethics), I was told never to expect to do freelance work for the company in the future. Within one month I was working on a flyer for the owner (freelance) and later on produced a whole series of anti-smoking ads. Today Dick Smith is a friend and his wife Pip has used me for photographic work.

The second person was someone that rubbed me the wrong way from the moment we met. An ex-Dick Smith employee who started his own company and was the recipient, from me, of the most foul obscene word in the English language.

He approached me a few months after leaving DS to do some ads for him, because in his words, he could not find anyone else. I had the choice and actually said yes. Thirty three years on and after many years of work for him I can honestly say that we are friends and have mutual respect for each other. I can also say that I was part (albeit small) of making Gary Johnston and Jaycar Electronics one of the largest and most successful electronics retailers in Australia.

My point is, that no matter whether you are an employee or freelance you can always make your own choices.

[gstark]

An ex-Dick Smith employee who started his own company and was the recipient, from me, of the most foul obscene word in the English language.

Work?

My point is, that no matter whether you are an employee or freelance you can always make your own choices.

Exactly.

[Reschsmooth]

An ex-Dick Smith employee who started his own company and was the recipient, from me, of the most foul obscene word in the English language.

Work?

No, "responsibility".

[silli]

Dear Garry,

I am sorry for not responding to you earlier. My life doesn't revolve around this forum.

Though I don't think I need to justify myself if it makes you feel better here it goes.

I am 35 years old. I run my own marketing agency. I am the founder and managing director of it.

I employ staff and service customers both nationally and internationally.

I have been in the marketing industry for 12 years.

I have an economics degree. Economics looks at market forces and pricing. Pricing and determining ones value has always been an interest of mine especially as I run my own business as is managing my customers expectations.

I have held senior marketing roles for some well known brands. I have outsourced work to photographers and designers for the last 12 years.

I have dealt with clients seeking marketing assistance for 12 years.

I reckon I am in a pretty good position to have an opinion on such matters. Also entitled to.

Just because I have only made 4 posts does not make my opinion any less valid. It means that I am new to this forum and I don't write alot of posts.

In no why did I make any personal attack on Ron or you, but merely gave another opinion based on my experience and understanding of client's and the industry.

I don't appreciate the assumptions you have made about me and think that as a site moderator you should not make assumptions on members character just because you disagree with a post.

Speaking of being bullied. I now feel I have been bullied by you to respond to your assumptions of me and to defend myself publicly.

Maybe the moderators need to have a closer look at the comments you have made against me and the tone in which they have been written.

I have stated my view. I don't think I need to answer your questions as I have nothing more to say on the matter and don't have time to sit and write a long winded reply to satisfy you.

Though I would not air my professional issues nor seek business advice in a public forum I wish Ron all the best with his dilemma and hope it works out well for him.

Thanks for making me feel so welcome on this forum Garry.

I remind you that as a site admin it is your responsibility to keep private my information that you are privileged to view and to not hint at my personal information in a post.

By all means, engage in vigorous debate, but in so doing, keep your arguments in focus.

This is one of the forum rules you created. Making personal assumptions about me is a bit out of focus I would say just because you didn't agree with my opinion.

Andrew

[gstark]

Dear Garry,

Please pay attention. One Arrr.

I am sorry for not responding to you earlier. My life doesn't revolve around this forum.

Yet you returned and selectively responded to a post, ignoring my questions. How quaint.

Though I don't think I need to justify myself if it makes you feel better here it goes.

I really don't care at all. You made certain statements, and I asked you to elaborate. You may choose to answer my questions, or you may not. I merely noted that you had returned and in so doing, had selectively ignored my questions. No big deal.

I am 35 years old. I run my own marketing agency. I am the founder and managing director of it.

Excellent. I was slightly out in terms of your age, but 100% on target in terms of the nature of your work.

I reckon I am in a pretty good position to have an opinion on such matters. Also entitled to.

And I am in no position to disagree with that.

Just because I have only made 4 posts does not make my opinion any less valid. It means that I am new to this forum and I don't write alot of posts.

Well, not quite as new as you might like us to believe: joined in May, it's now five months hence, and you have (now) ten posts to your name. I guess that's marketing-speak? Would you suggest that an average of two posts monthly (roughly speaking) makes you an active member here?

Regardless, that is not the point. What is the point is that the content of your post, in suggesting that a particular post was not appropriate here, was in and of itself quite inappropriate - that is for the mods here to determine. If you feel there is any issue with a post, then it would be entirely appropriate for you to flag the post for mods' attention by selection of the "Report this post" icon, which appears within every post made.

In no why did I make any personal attack on Ron or you,

And I do not believe that anyone has suggested that you have.

I don't appreciate the assumptions you have made about me and think that as a site moderator you should not make assumptions on members character just because you disagree with a post.

And I have made absolutely no assumptions because I disagree with a post. However, I did make some assumptions based upon the way certain things were put, and my assumptions were, by and large, pretty well on the mark. Do you have a problem my guessing - correctly - that you're in marketing? I not sure that I see where the problem is.

Speaking of being bullied. I now feel I have been bullied by you to respond to your assumptions of me and to defend myself publicly.

With respect, I would suggest that's a different issue altogether coming into play; one over which only you have input to. Again, I merely pointed out that you had not answered my earlier questions. It was your choice to answer them, or not, and I really don't care one way or the other. It's simply that you made certain statements, but you had failed to back them up, and I merely made that observation. In some ways, that is still the case, but again I refer you to my earlier statements: I don't care; it's entirely up to you to justify, or not, your position.

Maybe the moderators need to have a closer look at the comments you have made against me and the tone in which they have been written.

Perhaps they should. They know that they can discuss these issues freely with me; it's happened in the past, and I'm sure it will happen in the future. That is up to them, and it always remains open, to you, to report any post that you feel is inappropriate.

I have stated my view. I don't think I need to answer your questions as I have nothing more to say on the matter and don't have time to sit and write a long winded reply to satisfy you.

But yet that is precisely what you have done. Again, how quaint.

Though I would not air my professional issues nor seek business advice in a public forum

And that is your choice, and any choice that you choose to make is greatly respected.

Many others feel very confident in asking such questions here, and they seem to be mostly satisfied with the responses they receive. This is especially the case given that there are areas provided within this forum for exactly those sorts of questions to be asked, and hopefully answered. And perhaps, had you taken a few moments to skim the various sections available here, that particular fact might have made itself evident to you.

By all means, engage in vigorous debate, but in so doing, keep your arguments in focus.

This is one of the forum rules you created. Making personal assumptions about me is a bit out of focus I would say just because you didn't agree with my opinion.

[/quote]

And again, I made assumptions based upon factors other than my agreement, or otherwise, with your post. Your assumption that my statements were made because I did not agree with your statements are simply wrong.

[silli]

Seriously Gary,

Back off!!!

I am not an active member. So what!!! I can still participate when I want to.

I don't need to answer your questions coz I can't be stuffed. I don't want to. I don't see the point. You have a different opinion to me. Deal with it. I can't change your opinion.

Others can say what they like. I said my bit and don't want to say anymore as I have nothing else to say.

Leave me alone!!! PS. I find your post inapproprite. Tell the moderator.

[gstark]

Seriously Gary,

Back off!!!

Andrew, seriously, you need to calm down.

This is just a photography forum. Nobody is twisting you arm to come here and make posts ...

But you choose to do so.

Please restrain your outbursts, and please take this as your sole warning in this regard.

I am not an active member like you as I don't want to be. I don't get my kicks posting stuff on forums.

And to my knowledge nobody has twisted your arm to come here and make any posts.

You have a different opinion to me. Deal with it.

Actually, you seem to be the one having trouble dealing with different opinions, given the anger that is apparent in this outburst of yours.

said my bit and don't want to say anymore as I have nothing else to say.

But you continue to say things. You don't find hat a trifle contradictory?

I don't want to waste my time answering your questions.

Yet you just have. If you have nothing to say, then I would respectfully suggest that you say precisely that.

And if you feel you cannot be bothered to respond to a post, then simply do not respond. It really isn't that hard.

Take care.

[silli]

Bye!!!!

[who]

Wheres the waving emoticon?

silli - this ain't a democracy. But gary is a mostly benevolent dictator He and I have had discussions and I note he has now come round to my way of thinking

But I'm not going to dwell on this.

Back to the original Q - pricing et al. I personally don't take well to being told my price in my professional career, nor limitations on my scope. If I am putting my name to something, I want free reign to do what is needed...... if you want a $200 job find someone else. Even when I do a job myself under my ABN, it rarely is that cheap, and I can cut about 35% off the bill as I don't have huge business overheads (rent, office costs, wages, etc).

And on photography - I wouldn't do a job cheap - as that isn't fair money, nor an expensive job - as I don't think I could deliver the quality for the $ - but that is just me as an occasional hobbyist.

[zafra52]

This discussion thread has become a fascinating read. The reality is that all that have participated in this debate want a satisfactory outcome for Devilla and to remember we all benefit from various points of view and diversity of opinions, regardless of where our own values lie.

[chrisk]

lol gotta love the internet.
silli, gary is a stirrer. while he's typing those posts i can almost see the evil grin and hear the maniacal cackle. he is also the reason this forum exists allowing us to share ideas and learn from our peers. at his own cost and time. he never imposes himself as a dictator or censor. i've had, as have many others, heated debates with gary but he never ever hinted that it was out of line to do so. robust discussion is always encouraged here. dont take things so personally man. have a beer and chill a little, its a great country, beautiful day...good time to be alive, (unless your a stock broker).

[zafra52]

I've just received this and I have to share it with you all in view of the latest post:

The recent stock market dive means that, unless we want to be working a squeegee at a busy intersection in our golden years, we do not overlook any investment strategy. As such, I feek OBLIGED to share the following with you:

If you had purchased $1,000.00 of Delta Air Lines stock one year ago, you would have $49.00 left.

With Enron, you would have had $16.50 left of the original $1,000.00.

With WorldCom, you would have had less than $5.00 left.

But, if you had purchased $1,000.00 worth of beer one year ago, drank all of the beer, then turned in the cans for the aluminum recycling REFUND, you would have $214.00 cash!

Based on the above, the best current investment advice is to drink heavily and recycle. It's called the "401-Keg Plan."

[gstark]

silli, gary is a stirrer.

Me ???????????

i've had, as have many others, heated debates with gary but he never ever hinted that it was out of line to do so.

Correct. I take the view that robust discussion is good for us all, but if and where I see what I perceive to be a weakness in somebody's arguments, or perhaps a poor attitude, then I won't be backwards in attacking those flaws. At the same time I do try to take care to ensure that I am focusing on the points at hand, and not the individual.

And I know that others here do the same with me: it's all good fun, it's how we can all become better at our photography, and pretty much anything else that we discuss here. That is why we apply a very liberal approach to the way discussions here are managed, and why we don't immediately jump on people when threads drift off topic. The side threads do, I think, develop a life of their own, and often provide a high level of entertainment.

Hence we have the statement in the FAQ asking that you come here with your sense of humour intact, and it's especially important that you check your ego at the login screen, before entering. That is true, also of a bad attitude, I might add.

dont take things so personally man.

Precisely: I get annoyed when I see people adopting a defensive posture, and that's not just here, but in life, generally, too. People tend to do that way too often, and often it's done when they're not under attack. Ego ... paranoia ... not sure what to call it, but it's not good, and it's certainly not welcome here.

Based on the above, the best current investment advice is to drink heavily and recycle. It's called the "401-Keg Plan."

I'll drink to that!

[muzz]

WOW!! I'm seriously drained! I've just read this thread after finding it while searching the forum for tips on product lighting!

It certainly is an exceptionally fascinating read, and I've got to say I am enthralled. For a start, what a fantastic resource this forum can be in so many respects and how much advice has been freely given? It's almost contradictory in some ways as knowledge is the basis of many people's income and yet so much has been given here for no cost - there are many things that feel OK to do for free but not for cheap.

I really have absolutely no idea what a "reasonable" fee would be as I am in no way connected to the industry of photography. I wonder if one approach would be to get a plan of the job and get quotes from 3 professional photographers who would specialise in that work, and then perhaps discuss renegotiating the fee around those. This would help to give your boss a reality check (perhaps) and also establish your own worth within a more structured framework - remember I know nothing about the cost of photography and you have probably already come to that understanding if you are involved in the industry. Your boss probably knows the "real" value already too so it may help to clarify the feeling of being monetarily undervalued and allow this to be considered separately to the other issues relating to the way in which you have been treated by your boss, for which there has been plenty of advice already given.

But I'd really like to know how things turned out. From my point of view, I'd want to keep a good employee and wouldn't want to have to rely on a contract or legal framework to establish my relationship with them - there has to be room for personalities, warmth, compassion etc in the employer/employee relationship. I'm really hoping that both you and your boss have been able to get the fire out of the issue and had a rethink and a reworking of the problems it posed.

I hope I haven't re-opened a wound but it was like getting to the end of a novel and finding the last page was missing!

So how about letting us know how it all went.

Cheers, Murray PS I have given my receptionist the morning off to go to the Hopman Cup - I really am a helluva guy!!!!

PPS Garrrry you really should be onto this - unfinished threads, loose ends. And if it's your moderator's job and they're not performing, you should fire their arses!!!

[devilla101]

Hey all,

Apologies for not having posted the outcome any sooner and as muzz pointed out, it is kinda like finishing a novel with the last page missing. Also it would downright unfair for people who have helped and supported me throughout that unfortunate (but learning) ordeal not to know what happened at the end.

Well the reality is the time and date of the shoot pretty much pass without so much as a murmur. For the next following months neither my employer or myself brought up the topic and no sort of meeting took place. Work just trodded along and everything went as normal. Until on the last day of work before we finish up for the xmas the boss gave me the finish catalogue to show me what the other photographer did. I thought nothing much of it. Browse through it and didn't give negative feedback. Just said "Well pretty good regarding the budget"

So all up did I regret refusing to do a photo shoot for a big sports club given the circumstances I experienced last year? Hell no. I'm glad I stood my ground. It shows that I won't be pushed over and illustrates the fact that If you want my services I will quote accordingly regardless who the person/client is. The old excuse "Good for experience, lead to other jobs, good for the portfolio etc" just does not cut it for me.

Anyway that is the end of it. Thanks again for everyone's feedback and opinions. I see from reading previous posts that some people have learnt from this topic as well. Hope it serves many more

[foonji]

ahh good ol e-drama... must be that time of year... every forum I frequent seems to be doing it in abundance atm.

[MATT]

Hey all,

Apologies for not having posted the outcome any sooner and as muzz pointed out, it is kinda like finishing a novel with the last page missing. Also it would downright unfair for people who have helped and supported me throughout that unfortunate (but learning) ordeal not to know what happened at the end.

Well the reality is the time and date of the shoot pretty much pass without so much as a murmur. For the next following months neither my employer or myself brought up the topic and no sort of meeting took place. Work just trodded along and everything went as normal. Until on the last day of work before we finish up for the xmas the boss gave me the finish catalogue to show me what the other photographer did. I thought nothing much of it. Browse through it and didn't give negative feedback. Just said "Well pretty good regarding the budget"

So all up did I regret refusing to do a photo shoot for a big sports club given the circumstances I experienced last year? Hell no. I'm glad I stood my ground. It shows that I won't be pushed over and illustrates the fact that If you want my services I will quote accordingly regardless who the person/client is. The old excuse "Good for experience, lead to other jobs, good for the portfolio etc" just does not cut it for me.

Anyway that is the end of it. Thanks again for everyone's feedback and opinions. I see from reading previous posts that some people have learnt from this topic as well. Hope it serves many more

Thanks for the followup, and its good to see that it didnt have any negative effect on your employment. If your Boss and the Client are happy with their catalog--good for them. And good ony ou for standing your ground.

MATT