RANT!!!

[aim54x]

I received this email in the USYD PhotoSoc inbox today, and am appalled by the offer presented.

Dear Members,.

My name is Sxxxxx Pxxxx.

I am organising a theatre night this Wednesday at the Roxbury Hotel in Glebe. I am after a skilled photographer with camera to come along and take photos of the show, crowd, and performers on stage. The event will go for about an hr or less and will start at 8pm. I am willing to pay 20$ for your visit. I would also like to post your photos onto our Monomania Facebook and Myspace pages and own the copywrite permission on them but naturally you will be able to use then as part of any future portfolio, after all you also have at artistic talent as well.

I will need the photographer to come along at about 730pm.

My contact number is xxxx xxx xxx PS leave me your email and home phone number so I can reach you.


Cheers
Sxxxxx Pxxxx

I have replied with:

Dear Sxxxxx,

If you are after a skilled photographer please consider paying one what they are worth. I WILL NOT be forwarding this email to my members as I feel that $20 is not worth the trouble of any photographer, skilled or unskilled.

You must understand that it is not as easy as to rock up and take some photos. At the very least an hour of shooting is followed by several hours of processing. In your own words this is a job that requires 1.5hrs on site (you have asked for the photographer to turn up at 7.30pm for a 1hour shoot starting at 8.00pm), so the $20 payment works out to be less than $14p/h, a university student could make more per hour flipping burgers. Would you work for $14p/h??

If you want the copyright for the photos then you should think again, I do not think anyone will be willing to surrender the copyright for their work (even though they are allowed to use it in their portfolio) for such a paltry sum. Would you surrender the copyright to your photos, take photos for an hour and post process them all for $20?

Also be aware that the gear that a photographer would bring with them is worth several thousand at least, and can range up to over $10,000. So you are asking me to tell my members to come to your event, set up for 1/2 hr, shoot for 1 hr, post process for 2-3 hrs, surrender copyright, provide their own equipment, all for $20? You must be kidding yourself.

This email is a slap in the face for myself and all my members, and all photographers. Please do not contact us again if you continue to offer such ridiculous propositions.

Yours Sincerely,

Cameron Fong
Special Duties Officer/Dark Room Manager/Tri Alliance Liaiso

I am still reeling from this offer, is this person insane, or would anyone really consider taking this job up?

[gstark]

Cameron,

Well said.

[aim54x]

Thanks Gary!

I really cannot believe that someone would, even for a second, think that it is a valid offer that would be taken seriously. They may as well have asked for a volunteer, it would have been better. I know that I would do a freebie rather than take the $20 and give up my copyright and slut my services like that.

[biggerry]

This email is a slap in the face for myself and all my members, and all photographers. Please do not contact us again if you continue to offer such ridiculous propositions.

that sums it up!

I think you were very generous giving your time to write such a response - I would have just got on the phone and laid into them

If the offer is legit (it seems a little too ridiculus) I would be very disturbed, I am sure a night at the Roxbury cost more than that ...just...

[ATJ]

Unfortunately, I suspect they may get some fool to go along with the offer.

[Potoroo]

I am still reeling from this offer, is this person insane, or would anyone really consider taking this job up?

More naive than insane, I'd think. The assumption obviously was that some uni student would be glad of $20 and a bit of experience.

[aim54x]

I recieved a reply:

Dear Cameron Fong
Thank you for your reply.

Reading through the email trying not to take the reply as a personal attack, i should have been more specific detail about where I am coming from, with much more information. I just got excited after a 130am talk with my Friend Liam who spent his time tooking photo’s on O week.

Before I go on regarding the issue of copy write, lets address this now.

As a creative person myself with a photography/creative background, my sole aim is to be fully open to negotiations on this important issue. My final aim and wish is just to be able to select which photo’s I would like to use on Myspace and Facebook group Mono Mania group, with each chosen photos to have URL links or contact details back to the photographer on each photo so the photographer chosen in question will have future marketing/job opportunities. I see no harm in that and I am sure you will to.

Information about myself. (which also addresses the comments you made in your email).
I am a part time student largely on Centre link benefits. I have part time work two days a week 4 hrs being paid 16 dollars per hour. I stand up on Sydney streets and hand out stuff. I live out in Sydney ‘s West (50m minutes) and have no public transport discount for fairs, nor a car.

Mono Manina Theatre night.

Is a NOT for profit group promoting up and coming talent and giving all actors of all levels a chance to be up on stage. The Roxburary Hotel has always been offering us their venue free of charge for the shows and use of their lighting equipment for the shows which happen about 3 times a year.

All people , (every single individual) involved in MomoMania are volunteering their time for free, (eg hours spent writing and rehearsing their chosen material) as are the main two organises, who are sharing for costs out of their very own pockets. I’m sure you are aware being a student and working part time, money is not that easy to come by. There is cover charge for the show, this time 2 bucks for entry and if lucky and when all costs reach breakeven mark the actors and lighting person get a small payment, I stress if lucky.

I.e we get enough people through the door to watch them.. The photographer will not be charged anything but paid to attend and take some photos or as many as they like.
If i was able to afford a proper digital camera I would be taking photos myself.
Now, If I wanted to exploit a fellow creative person (which I do not ever intend on doing) even if i had an evil twin I would not hehehhe I would have asked any photographer to come in for free.

But from what have said above my offer of 20$ is a fair one based on the following facts,
We are a non for profit group, promoting grass root talent, through an easy to get to venue in Sydney. This amount could cover transport costs or petrol or fare costs for the photographer to get to the venue and even dinner. The shift will be for 1 hour or less.
Now if we were a profit group with extra funds (not relying on Centre Link and limited part time work) I will be able and gladly to pay the industry standard.

I had asked my friend Liam to come along (he was happy to do so) and be paid to take photo’s but he has class. he in fact recomened me to you guys

He advised me that anyone would be glad to come in and take photo’s. I may be starting to think he may be wrong. It would be nice to also think that Laim was paid full industry standard for promoting Photosoc as I was also helping him ask random students to get photographed for 1 hr of my time during O week..

I hope we can get this issue sorted out so I can find alternative arrangements, if you still are no longer wish to support me in finding a Photographer.

Thank you for your time.

Yours Sincerely

Sxxxxx Pxxxx PS I would perfer you to keep this between us as this is total missunderstanding. If you have told this to others, I would like to then to re-clarify the situation.

In reply I wrote:

Dear Sxxxxx,

Thank you for your reply. I did not mean my reply to be a personal attack, I was merely stating the facts from the point of view of a student photographer who has seen too many attempts from businesses to exploit myself and fellow student photographers.

I raise a few issues here:

-COPYRIGHT - asking to retain the rights for photos taken is overstepping the border (raises alarm bells for me as a privilege that is to be paid for, not given freely), I also note that your tone has changed on this issue, you have now asked for the right to choose which photos to display with appropriate accreditation, this is VERY different from your original request. There is no harm in this second request, but the there is HUGE problems with the first

-THE JOB - Your initial email made it seem very 'business' hence the feeling of exploitation, as I have pointed out, if you want the job done professionally then pay professionally, BUT in consideration of your reply it may have been better for your sake to explain the circumstances surrounding the work. If you are a not for profit organisation then SAY IT.

-PAYMENT - if a volunteer is what you wanted/could afford then asking for one is usually a better ploy than providing a false reward. It may not seem logical, but asking for a freebie is seen as much better than offering a paid JOB and paying a pittance. The former is asking for a FAVOUR the latter is EXPLOITATION.

I have personally done may free 'jobs' for friends and for non-profit organisations (currently my work is in this week's issue of 'The Bull' and in the engineering magazine and I did a few jobs in support of Trent Morrow (the Marathon-Man) last year, just as a few examples). On the flipside I ahve done paid work for clients (including the University of Sydney Union).

For the record, your friend 'Liam' (who's name is TxxxTxxxx on the forum that you know him through) is a close friend of my own. We did not ask him to take photos, he did so on his own accord, he is a very active member of the Tri-Alliance that both PhotoSoc and Exposure are part of and he was doing his part for the clubs.

If you are to be so kind to send me a revised proposition (one that properly explains your situation - minus the sob story as it is not needed) I'll consider forwarding it to my members.

Yours Sincerely,
Cameron K. Fong
Special Duties Officer/Dark Room Manger/Tri Alliance Liaison

[aim54x]

Now if someone had been transparent from the beginning there would not have been such a misunderstanding, dont you all think?

I have posted this reply based on the PS note (ie for clarification for anyone else that has been disclosed to the contents of this email)

[chrisk]

i gotta tell ya buddy, i'm pretty impressed with how patient, logical and courteous you have been. if it were me i'd be more inclined to reply with a nice simple "f*ckoff idiot".

[aim54x]

Just in:

Mate lol

I don't provide Sob stories however, I do provide the facts. I will see if I can write up another submission. It may be too late though.

See what happens.

cheers.

Now he thinks we are friends. Maybe I should have taken your advice Gerry and Chris!! I sure as hell felt like it but I would probably get flamed by the rest of the exec commitee, I am already getting a bit of heat for the initial reply (it was a little antagonistic for one of the execs).

[Matt. K]

I'LL DO IT! :shock:

(Just kidding) I love the way they make out they're doing the photographer some kind of favour.
You handled it very well. Congratulations.

[Glen]

Cameron handled in a very gentleman like manner and by continuing the dialogue you have educated him (and probably others who read it here). Congratulations

[bwhatnall]

well dealt with, im impressed. The first email was put foreward as though it was coming from a large theater production group, and I would have been shocked to get that request as well, which it is always good to tell the full story.

[MATT]

i gotta tell ya buddy, i'm pretty impressed with how patient, logical and courteous you have been. if it were me i'd be more inclined to reply with a nice simple "f*ckoff idiot".

Very well handled, I think I would have been more inclined to be like Rooz above...

BUt you could have cause you are friend s now..

MATT

[Killakoala]

Amazing read I think you acted accordingly and I would have done the same.

[FrankieP]

Wow. I'd have hit the roof at receiving such a generous offer in my inbox too. How rude, just flipping someone $20 in return for expectation of all that hard work!!! Exploitation of 'poor students', certainly. I agree with the others on all points, well done for sticking up for your fellows and for doing so with such restraint.

[surenj]

Unbelievable! Well actually... This happens all the time to many professionals whether they are photographers or not.

I love the wording in your letter! Interesting to see the reply as well. Hmm.. I think it would have been better to ask for a VOLUNTEER in the first place. Then they could have probably got somebody.

Copyright issue is a bit tricky however. The way he is asking for the copyright is very unusual for a "fellow artist".