English muffins - feedback for the food blogger?

[kitchenwench]

Hey guys,

I have been going INSANE trying to take decent photos of my english muffins so that I can put the blog post up, but every time I make a batch and do a shoot, I end up with photos that I hate and I'm just about to tear out my hair with frustration

The ones I've taken so far are below, but would love some feedback on how you guys think I could shoot these better! But please bear in mind that I shoot in natural light (I have no other light sources or reflectors, just little beauty mirrors), and my shooting choices are limited to my 50mm f1.8, 100mm f2.8 macro and the kit lens

[aim54x]

They look pretty good to me. I guess you are using the 100mm f/2.8 and the 50mm f/1.8.

#1 and #4 look very pleasing to me - I really feel like having those muffins!!

#2 is not too bad, not sure what is wrong there, but i think it is missing something

#3 needs more DOF, close down that aperture a bit more and try to get the 2nd muffin in the background into reasonable focus. If you need a slower shutter speed, consider using a tripod.

Hope this helps!

[kitchenwench]

Thanks Cameron, it helps a bit To be honest, all four images leave me feeling very empty, I try and take delicious photos but these ones look more like stock images to me...and I can't think of what I need to try to bring them alive

[leek]

Personally I think that you need a little more DOF, or you need to focus a little further back so that the middle of the subject is in focus - but maybe that's just me...

[Grev]

I think the main thing would be composition. Zoom in to get more isolation and more detail, that's what I would do, but then again I'm not a food photographer. I'm sure there are more ways to improve too.

[Glen]

I agree with Leek, use a tripod and smaller aperture for more DOF, plus in 1 and 4 I was left wanting to see more of the item. Just take one step back in one and more to the left in 4. If this is your crap food - feel free to make me muffins any time

[sirhc55]

I totally agree that the DOF is far too shallow and after looking through your food blog I can see consistent use of shallow DOF.

Your fondant play kit indicates good use of DOF and you really need to apply part of this principle to your other food photography. There must be depth to show the textures and the reality of taste within the 2-dimensional photo, in other words you must try and make the photo more 3-dimensional.

[Mr Darcy]

I agree with the others that DOF is important here. I feel you need ALL of your foreground muffin in focus, and your background OOF.
You come closest to this in #1, but it, in turn, suffers to my mind from choice of colour. You have yellow, green and blue as your palette. This is a very bland choice - calming. Made especially so as the colours themselves are muted. If you want to get your photo to sing, you need to work in a complementary. Perhaps red trim on the plate instead of green; or a purple tablecloth instead of blue.

[Murray Foote]

I agree with all the above, particularly Greg's comments. I think you need to try different depth of field settings on a tripod and if necessary you could combine several shots to get the right combination. That may require careful cloning around the edges though, because out of focus foreground objects are larger than the same object in focus.

Regards,
Murray

[Bob G]

Personally I think your main issues to deal with are composition/angle/orientation, lighting and color.

Many professional food photographers make use of shallow DOF to provide emphasis to the in focus areas.

see this link for example of current trends http://www.foodportfolio.com/food_photography/index.html

[sirhc55]

Personally I think your main issues to deal with are composition/angle/orientation, lighting and color.

Many professional food photographers make use of shallow DOF to provide emphasis to the in focus areas.

see this link for example of current trends http://www.foodportfolio.com/food_photography/index.html

If you look carefully at the shots on that site Bob you will notice that some shots have shallow DOF and others don’t. It really comes down to the food that is being photographed whether it is singular in nature such as a corn cob (amongst many cobs) or a full on burger that has everything in focus.

[kitchenwench]

Thanks for the feedback everyone I certainly don't agree with every comment, but it's helped me want to try shooting this again, using some of these suggestions...hopefully I'll end up with a set of photos that I'm happier with tomorrow

[surenj]

I certainly don't agree with every comment,

How rude

I got nothing to offer except to say that I've heard that food photogs use machine oil to enhance the sheen on food! yummy

[sirhc55]

Or methylated spirits for flambe shots

[kitchenwench]

That ain't the half of it for the pros - http://photocritic.org/food-photo-tricks/

Unfortunately, I can't use any shortcuts since I have to feed the food that I make to my family - and if you think I could be bothered going to those sorts of extremes (on top of working full time, cooking and keeping house) you've got another think coming!

[sirhc55]

That raises the question of why you bothered asking in the first place as you obviously do not want any critique or advice

[Murray Foote]

I can't see why you would say that.

[sirhc55]

Thanks for the feedback everyone I certainly don't agree with every comment, but it's helped me want to try shooting this again, using some of these suggestions...hopefully I'll end up with a set of photos that I'm happier with tomorrow

It would be nice to know what you think are the good ideas as you posed the question in the first place!

Unfortunately, I can't use any shortcuts since I have to feed the food that I make to my family - and if you think I could be bothered going to those sorts of extremes (on top of working full time, cooking and keeping house) you've got another think coming!

If you want professional looking photographs then you have to put the hard yards into attaining that goal. On all of my food shoots for clients I have employed a food stylist for the simple reason that styling is very important.

After reading a few of your blogs I know you can take criticism on the chin because you know how to hand it out

[kitchenwench]

The comments regarding lighting, background colour, and plating/composition were helpful - I tried the shoot again yesterday but found that the colour of the muffins just doesn't work with the plates that I have. I did try the suggestions to close down the aperture but found that closing it down so the entire dish was in focus made it look even more bland, and a little less just made the background muffin turn into a distracting fuzzy mess - not quite OOF enough to provide a nice background blur but not in focus either.

It would be nice to know what you think are the good ideas as you posed the question in the first place!

Well, I *was* going to do a follow-up post showing how the photos had gone with everyone's suggestions. I may not have agreed with all of them, but that doesn't mean I wasn't going to give them a try!

If you want professional looking photographs then you have to put the hard yards into attaining that goal. On all of my food shoots for clients I have employed a food stylist for the simple reason that styling is very important

Did you click the link that I posted? The references to gluing sesame seeds on hamburger buns? Using motor oil in place of syrup? Injecting mashed potato under the skin of a near raw roast chicken to make it look plump? Shoe polish to brown meat?

Food blogging (like photography) is a hobby of mine. One that I fit in in the time I have left between working and taking care of my family. What I *meant* was that if anyone thinks that I'm about to cook two versions of a dish, one to ruin with the 'tricks' in that link, on top of feeding the family, they have another think coming. First of all, I really can't justify wasting that much food, secondly, that may be how the pros do it, but it just feels like cheating to me.

[DebT]

Hi,
OK I'd have to admit to using glycerin on the strawberries to get that perfect shine but OMG cant believe some of the suggestions in the link you posted .
Your shots certainly evoked my appetite - #1 with a crispy rash of bacon on the side followed by #2 with a nice dollup of cream on the top would go very nicely with a cup of tea.
For me the angle and colour catch my attention so keep practicing - they all look yummy and I'm sure the family will be happy to eat the models.
DebT

[kitchenwench]

Thanks DebT! This is a little embarrassing to admit, but I didn't even think about plating anything else with the scrambled egg and jam shots - but your suggestions make perfect sense! Padding out the plate with a few accompaniments would also allow me to back up a little bit...and I happen to have a few decent looking strawberries too! I'm going to an op shop after work to try and get a few nice old plates, so I'll try those two again tonight

[aim54x]

I would have to agree with DebT, adding some cream would make that Jam muffin look really enticing....and bacon with the scrambled egg would be nice as well.

SOrry to hear that adding a bit more DOF into #3 did not produce a good result. I had a bit of a look of your blog, a very high standard of image...made me hungry!

Keep up the good work (yes I would say those 'pro' methods are cheating!)

[sirhc55]

Cheating, of course it’s cheating but to make certain types of food “look” appertising one has to be “inventive”

It even flows through in the manufacturing process. For example, tinned green peas do not exist. The process involved in tinning peas produces a pea that is grey in colour. Would you eat grey peas? No, and that is why they are coloured green. Meat is treated to appear more red than it actually is because people want “red” meat.

Basically to make people want to try something you have to make it look “great”. That’s why 99% of cook book authors (or their publisher) employ professional food photographers and stylists. Another classic example of photographic forgery are the thousands of Chinese/Korean/Vietnamese/Malaysian et al takeaway food bars that have those superb food trannies showing their wares - but, does the food they serve up look anything like the photos? Simple answer, NO.

And I will not even go into make-up used by 99% of women (and some men too)

[kitchenwench]

Well seeing as I don't buy tinned peas I really can't say what's going on there. As for the rest of your comment - you're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. I'm not trying to sell cookbooks, I run my blog for fun and use the images to show readers that someone with no background in cooking or photography can make decent food, and maybe they can to.

If I were doing a shoot for a client where they were paying for my time and ingredients and I didn't have to feed the results to a hungry family, I probably wouldn't mind ruining a tray of steaks with butane and shoe polish, nor throwing out a few whole chickens here or there.

[gstark]

I run my blog for fun and use the images to show readers that someone with no background in cooking or photography can make decent food, and maybe they can to.

But here you have (perhaps unknowingly) highlighted the fundamental problem that some of us are seeing.

You are saying "someone with no background in cooking or photography can make decent food", but in reality, the situation is something more akin to "someone with no background in cooking can make decent food. and someone with no background in photography can make decent photographs of that food"

The cooking of the food is one skill, the photography of that food is a very different skill, and dare I say it, the presentation of that food for photography is yet a third set of skills.

I am not for a moment suggesting that any of those skills are mutually exclusive of any other of those skills.

But I do believe it's important to understand and respect that there are very different skills involved, and that sometime, in order to get the best possible image, some compromises in the preparation and presentation may need to be accepted.

I would be using the longer of my lenses and shooting from further back (from the subject). That provides me with a greater apparent depth of field, which translates, in a practical sense, to a greater depth of focus in the subject. Trying to ensure that I had good high quality light, would also be a high priority, because light is, after all, what photography is all about.

If the intensity of the lighting could be increased (I note that you stated that you have limitations here) then a smaller aperture could be put to use, but I would also be trying to balance the light, aperture and DoF available so that, as much as possible, I was trying to shoot within my lens's sweet spot range, and thus try to make best use of whatever properties the glass might be able to impart upon the images.

[kitchenwench]

Hi Gary,

Light is definitely a limitation - I just can't afford a lighting kit, and after various tests around the house, I've found that the best light for photos is literally crouched on the floor behind the dining room table in my kitchen. The intensity of light purely depends on the time of day that I've done my cooking.

I'm already shooting with the 100mm so I haven't got a longer lens to use, and I can try going further back but it's a bit of a balancing act between making sure the frame has enough detail to draw in the eye and making sure there isn't too much empty space in the shot.

My issue with Chris's comments is that he again and again appears to imply that in order to get professional quality images, I need to resort to taking images of tampered produce, and that is something that I am vehemently against.

That raises the question of why you bothered asking in the first place as you obviously do not want any critique or advice

Really? Simply because I refuse to use the 'tips' (e.g. such as motor oil instead of syrup? So I have to buy motor oil, use it for the shot, and then dump an entire stack of pancakes if I'm to follow Chris' suggestions on how to get a good shot?), I shouldn't be asking for advice? I took every suggestion into consideration, and I tried almost all of them (the one comment in regards to cloning edges I just couldn't do because I don't have the patience to stack multiple images and spend the time pp-ing them).

If you want professional looking photographs then you have to put the hard yards into attaining that goal. On all of my food shoots for clients I have employed a food stylist for the simple reason that styling is very important.

To be completely honest, putting in the hard yards is a different thing altogether to wasting food/money/energy just to get a photo. I'm willing to do the work in trying to get an image that makes me happy, but I'm not about to resort to the sort of procedures that Chris appears to think are the only way to get a decent shot.

If Chris thinks that using fakery is the only way to get decent food photos, I'd suggest he look at mattbites.com, www.latartinegourmande.com and stilllifewith.com for three food bloggers who manage to get amazing photos without resorting to any deception to the viewer/reader.

[gstark]

If Chris thinks that using fakery is the only way to get decent food photos

It's certainly not the only way. It is, however, very common.

But with good lighting, careful technique, and good PP, you can achieve much.

Consider using the angle of view of your subject to your advantage: if you shoot your food from a lower angle, you have a plane of focus that runs across the subject, from near to far. With little in the way of lattitude, this means that your available DoF is limited.

If you can shoot from a higher viewpoint, then you may be able to alter the front-to-rear DoF so that the actual plane of focus is more parallel to your focal plane, thus providing an apparently greater area that is in sharp focus. Now throw a couple of other complementary objects into the OOF areas of your image, but be wary - only a little is needed, and it doesn't take a lot to overcook things.

Lighting: often raised, diffuse, and from the rear, as the primary light source, is a good way to go. Use some fine muslin as a diffuser to break up any direct sunlight coming through a window, and some foam core board to the front of the subject to act as a good solid reflector. The fcb costs about the same as a dozen eggs, a meter or two of muslin is probably about the same.

[Murray Foote]

Someone may tell me I'm missing something, I have no personal interest in studio photography, but i don't see why you can't create your own custom lighting setup with household lamps, preferably with the same bulb type. You could use diffusers, bounce and custom camera white balance, while following the basic principles of studio lighting.

Whether that's any better than natural lighting might be another matter and as Gary was saying, you can use diffusion and bounce with that as well.

Regards,
Murray

[sirhc55]

Well Ellie I took your advice and had a beeky boo at mattbites.com and to be perfectly honest I was not impressed at all as the DOF is virtually non-existent. If its any consolation your shots are far better.

Maybe it’s time I fessed up as to my experience in both cooking and photography. Photography is easy, 50 years +.

Now cooking is another matter. Back in the middle sixties I was placed in a gourmand predicament. Baked beans for breakfast, lunch and dinner was just not doing it for me so I took it upon myself to look into the world of French cooking and learn how it was done.

Today I can say with some pride that I have cooked for Roman Polanski, catered for many parties up to 150 guests and produced uncountable signature dishes.

Cooking became a passion so in many ways I can relate to your enthusiasm but as Gary has pointed out in combining the two passions (food and photography) you have to sometimes break rules to get the best result. The same can be said of cooking as all of my signature dishes are NOT based on any known (to me) recipes.

[gstark]

i don't see why you can't create your own custom lighting setup with household lamps,

Many choose to do this, and a visit to Bunnings to acquire a set of halogen worklamps will actually provide a source of somewhat powerful lights.

But ....

The downside comes in the form of heat, and halogens are definitely not the coolest light source in the treehouse. I see that as being potentially problematic when it comes to shooting food.

Cheap light tents can be had for around pp50, and they will provide a very good source of diffuse light. Take it outside on a sunny day, place your subject inside the tent, and you can shoot intents-ly to your (artichoke's) heart's content.

[aim54x]

i don't see why you can't create your own custom lighting setup with household lamps,

Many choose to do this, and a visit to Bunnings to acquire a set of halogen worklamps will actually provide a source of somewhat powerful lights.

But ....

The downside comes in the form of heat, and halogens are definitely not the coolest light source in the treehouse. I see that as being potentially problematic when it comes to shooting food.

Cheap light tents can be had for around pp50, and they will provide a very good source of diffuse light. Take it outside on a sunny day, place your subject inside the tent, and you can shoot intents-ly to your (artichoke's) heart's content.

I bought myself one of those cheap light tents, it has been very useful, I light it up using a SB-800 and a SB-600 but have thought about using desk lamps, but have not been bothered to spend the money to do so. I think you should be able to use incans or hologens (not crash hot on fluros) and so long as you set up your lights and take a custom WB (or WB ref shot) then you should be pretty easily remove any colour casts.

[biggerry]

this has been a very interesting read thankyou all, i often photograph coffee at home, without studio lighting, just as Ellie does, with good light coming thru the window, this has been informative... now to the important stuff,

dinner at chris' place?

[ozimax]

And I will not even go into make-up used by 99% of women (and some men too)

Brylcream never did me any good...

[gstark]

And I will not even go into make-up used by 99% of women (and some men too)

Brylcream never did me any good...

Probably still available in Modesto.

[aim54x]

this has been a very interesting read thankyou all, i often photograph coffee at home, without studio lighting, just as Ellie does, with good light coming thru the window, this has been informative... now to the important stuff,

dinner at chris' place?

I'm in!

[kitchenwench]

I've actually tried work lights - my local bunnings had a sale on them...and I eagerly bought two sets and brought them home. But, as Gary said, they're really no good for shooting food I also have two lamps that I bought and fitted with daylight bulbs and while they're great for portrait work, they sit at 1.5m tall so they're too too high to use for my food photos (since I'd want them to supplement natural light as they're too dim to be my only light source). I also have some existing desk lamps, though unfortunately they don't fit the daylight bulbs that I bought from Bunnings, so I actually ordered a Grey Kard a few weeks back to see if that helps my lighting predicament.

Gary - thanks for the tips about the muslin and cardboard, I'll make sure I try and check out my local lincraft over the weekend to see if I can't source any of this stuff. I'll have to look into the light tent though - but what's pp50?

Cam - I ordered a Grey Kard from the US a few weeks ago and am still waiting for it to arrive, I'm hoping that it will allow me to use existing desk lamps that I have as fill light. A light tent sounds like it would be a good idea, but I think I'd want one fairly big? Do you think it would be possible to construct one myself on the cheap?

[ozimax]

KW:

This is an interesting post. Please realise (maybe you already do) that numbers of the participants in this forum (read: "older geezers") have an enormous amount of product photography experience, among other things. One can learn a tremendous amount about photography, if you are willing to have your images/technique etc scrutinized!

As for the muffins, they look great!

Ozi.

[ozimax]

And I will not even go into make-up used by 99% of women (and some men too)

Brylcream never did me any good...

Probably still available in Bakersfield.

[big pix]

http://bigpix.smugmug.com/gallery/790167_QiXAn

........all the pixs on this first page were shot with one light source bounced off a ceiling and a white reflector. The tomato..... kitchen window light,...... grapes, window light,.... nuts, north light only......

...... all shot using the KISS principle

[kitchenwench]

Ozi - I realize that people here have experience, that's the reason why I asked for feedback. Feedback, as I have already stated - that I have already tried putting into practice. Chris' comment "That raises the question of why you bothered asking in the first place as you obviously do not want any critique or advice" was (IMO) rude - prior to his comment, I had already thanked everyone who replied to my post for their advice and *said* that I would be utilizing some of it. His comment came directly after I advised that I would not be using trickery such as motor oil, meth or shoe-polish on raw meat.

As Gary put it best, "with good lighting, careful technique, and good PP, you can achieve much."

The tips I had received from everyone prior to the comment that Chris left (which left a very sour taste in my mouth and would've seen me quit the forum if it weren't for the fact that I know there genuinely kind and helpful folks here) were suggestions of the nature that Gary suggested - to do with technique and pp. This is what I came here for, and what I received thanks to the many forum members who took the time to critique the photos and make helpful suggestions.

Big Pix - Thanks for the link, interesting photos and very nice plating.

Once again, thanks to everyone who left constructive comments regarding my photography and plating technique and did so in a courteous and helpful fashion. I have to do yet another shoot as the one I did yesterday made me realize that I need to try a few different backgrounds and plates to see what colours compliment the dish, but once I do my next shoot, hopefully I'll be able to post photos that show some development from the ones I posted here.

[sirhc55]

http://bigpix.smugmug.com/gallery/790167_QiXAn

........all the pixs on this first page were shot with one light source bounced off a ceiling and a white reflector. The tomato..... kitchen window light,...... grapes, window light,.... nuts, north light only......

...... all shot using the KISS principle

Yummy

[sirhc55]

And I will not even go into make-up used by 99% of women (and some men too)

Brylcream never did me any good...

You have hair?

[ozimax]

And I will not even go into make-up used by 99% of women (and some men too)

Brylcream never did me any good...

You have hair?

HAD hair, eons ago...

[surenj]

e a set of halogen worklamps will actually provide a source of somewhat powerful lights.

But ....

The downside comes in the form of heat, and halogens are definitely not the coolest light source in the treehouse. I see that as being potentially problematic when it comes to shooting food.

I would definitely agree. Been there and done that. The 500W halogen lamps not only burn you [in this case it was me] but also blow really frequently. They also blow in terms of quality of light. If you try to use lighting modifiers then your house will catch on fire. IF you are lucky you'll just burn yourself on the lighting modifier!

Food tent ...I mean lighting tent is a good idea for cheap diffused light for food shots.

[big pix]

Food tent ...I mean lighting tent is a good idea for cheap diffused light for food shots.

...... you do not need a food tent, the first 6 pixs here http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/790167_QiXAn shot in a big room on the kitchen table using one studio flash bonced off the ceiling and a white reflector..... camera was a D70s

[Grev]

I've actually tried work lights - my local bunnings had a sale on them...and I eagerly bought two sets and brought them home. But, as Gary said, they're really no good for shooting food I also have two lamps that I bought and fitted with daylight bulbs and while they're great for portrait work, they sit at 1.5m tall so they're too too high to use for my food photos (since I'd want them to supplement natural light as they're too dim to be my only light source). I also have some existing desk lamps, though unfortunately they don't fit the daylight bulbs that I bought from Bunnings, so I actually ordered a Grey Kard a few weeks back to see if that helps my lighting predicament.

Gary - thanks for the tips about the muslin and cardboard, I'll make sure I try and check out my local lincraft over the weekend to see if I can't source any of this stuff. I'll have to look into the light tent though - but what's pp50?

Cam - I ordered a Grey Kard from the US a few weeks ago and am still waiting for it to arrive, I'm hoping that it will allow me to use existing desk lamps that I have as fill light. A light tent sounds like it would be a good idea, but I think I'd want one fairly big? Do you think it would be possible to construct one myself on the cheap?

Most of my orders from America comes very quickly, 3 or 4 days quickest.

And I suggest cheap portable lighting stuff, for myself, I have many speedlights, many small light stands and several foldable umbrellas, very portable and versatile.

[Mr Darcy]

Most of my orders from America comes very quickly, 3 or 4 days quickest.

While that's often, even usually, the case, things do go awry at times. To date, my record stands at 6 months. A Christmas present for my daughters ordered in July. Arrived after Christmas.

[surenj]

...... you do not need a food tent, the first 6 pixs here http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/790167_QiXAn shot in a big room on the kitchen table using one studio flash bonced off the ceiling and a white reflector..... camera was a D70s

I would agree that a studio light may be powerful enough for this. Perhaps if you are looking for f22 etc for food shots maybe a speedlight is not enough [although you could probably get away with it if the relflection is medium sized and was close to the food] . In any case I was thinking of the cheapest option in Kitchenwench's case. The budget seems to be an issue.

One TTL speedlight = low end studio strobe in terms of price. Also the old speedlight prices have skyrocketed thanks for Dave Hobby.

[big pix]

[ In any case I was thinking of the cheapest option in Kitchenwench's case. The budget seems to be an issue.

........ if budget is an issue...... use the best light of all, gods light, it is free and comes through most windows..... along with a cheap tripod so you can control the DOF and shutter speed you would get much better shots, lighting wise, than the ones at the start of this thread.......

the best thing, this light source works with all lens

[muzz]

Hi Ellie,

you certainly seem to be having a damn good crack at this and I admire your passion for getting it the way you want it. I'm sure you will get the results you want in the end with persistence. I have very little experience (i.e. none) with food photography but have managed to trawl through a number of websites in the last 6 months looking at lighting in general and a few may be helpful to you here.

This site has a range of DIY lighting suggestions which may be useful - for instance a home made lighting box for product photography, and a home made diffuser screen. The Strobist website has a huge amount of detailed information on lighting with particular focus on flash photography. I also found this article explaining how to simply modify light from an on-camera popup flash with items already in the kitchen.

I hope there is something of use there for you - it can be time-consuming looking through all this stuff. You're probably already getting closer to the look you want with all the suggestions and your own experimentation. I guess you are going to keep cooking so every meal is a new opportunity to try a different approach. PS Gary's reference to "pp50" refers to his abbreviation of "Pacific Peso", his term for the Australian Dollar. It took me a while to understand it too, especially being over here on the west coast with the Indian Ocean lapping our shores, and the "Pacific" having much less relevance!

Good luck, Muzz