7D RAGE

[photomarcs]

Hi All,

As we all know of the fantastic 7D, we all know of its faults as well.



Here's my say on my 7D with the 70-200 f4L USM.



AF?
PFFT.. I've got better chances getting free money from the bank than i do getting it to properly focus. AND NO its NOT a micro adjustment issue, ( I'd know, i've spent hours trying to micro adjust the damn thing, and its not the same adjustment always with the lens)

I'm having COMPLETELY out of focus images claim to be in focus, yes there are MINOR micro adjustments neccessary, but still i've taken photos in broad daylight at ISO 400 1/6400 at f5.6 and yet the images are still NOT sharp. Even when it was on a tripod, 2sec self timer, it was an EPIC FAIL.


I've had aim54x agree with me on the AF recalibration, and its not looking good by the sounds of it. The AI Servo is providing less use to me than a rubber knife on a plumbing pole.


ISO noise?

Dear Canon,

WHY IS THERE NOISE AT 200 ISO!!!!! WTF... T_T



Excuse me if I'm wrong, but my 1000D is taking majorly better images than my 7D is pulling out, that is.. with the 70-200 f4L and the 2.8 IS USM versions, 24-70 2.8 (sigma and canon version). ISO on my 1000D was so much better produced in terms of noise reduction / general noise levels (quote from aim54x)

If canon could kindly please take back my 7D, as a matter of fact, take all the 7D's in the world back and kindly recalibrate the damn thing I'd be much happier, OH! and also you're D!G!C 4 algorithm sucks.

Good things?

I can use it.

Bad things?

I can't live with it.





Let's hope the 8D comes out sooner than we hope, then every chinaman would want one too LOL

[aim54x]

Marcus...can I say "I told you not to buy it!!"

Lets hope your AF issues are an isolated case....send it back to Canon buddy!

[dviv]

Lets hope your AF issues are an isolated case....send it back to Canon buddy!

Sorry to hear about your problems - it's never nice when something new doesn't work properly.

Having said that, it's probably best to make sure it's not just one faulty camera before condeming every 7D on the planet

[zafra52]

This is amazing!
Marcus, are you sure this is not a local phenomenon,
I mean you just happened to get a bad camera?
Is the focusing problem confined to one particular lens?
I can understand there could be a problem with a third
party lens, but with a Canon's one?
I guess you have already contacted Canon and expressed
these views.
Of course you discussed other very important issues like
ISERVO and noise, but, what I find hard to digest is how
these issues have not been picked up and reported by any
of the reviews. Does this mean that the reviewing websites
were biased and just picked up quite happily the Canon's
propaganda without putting the camera through a ...
rigorous test? PS I found this article:
http://canonfieldreviews.com/2009/09/

[radar]

As for noise and sharpeness with the 7D, have a look at Darwin Wiggett's take on the 7D. He is a very well respected landscape photographer and a long time Canon shooter and he says:

In our original review of the Canon 7D we absolutely loved the handling and performance of the camera but we just could not get sharp RAW files. In fact we found our little entry level Canon Rebel XSi gave us better files than the Canon 7D!

Full blog post here: http://darwinwiggett.wordpress.com/2009 ... canon-xsi/

and original review: http://darwinwiggett.wordpress.com/2009 ... -canon-7d/

Not that this will make you feel any better about your investment. As others have said, take the camera back to Canon to have it serviced.

Also, you could try going to a Canon dealer and trying another 7D and see if you get the same results. Just take your lens and your 7D and take the same photos with the two cameras.

Good luck,

André

[devilla101]

Of course you discussed other very important issues like ISERVO and noise, but, what I find hard to digest is how
these issues have not been picked up and reported by any of the reviews. Does this mean that the reviewing websites
were biased and just picked up quite happily the Canon's propaganda without putting the camera through a ...
rigorous test?

It could simply be that lady luck was not your side and you actually just picked up a defective camera.
However not knowing how technically minded you are when it comes to cameras (please don't take that as an offence) it makes it difficult to offer any other helpful advice.

Regarding the images, perhaps you can post what you were 'test shooting' so that anyone here wanting to help can see what you mean. Are you shooting RAW or JPEG? If shooting jpg check your sharpness setting. If its RAW, maybe the lens' limit has been reached on an 18mp sensor.

How are you testing AI Servo? What where the conditions like? What setting was your camera?

As for ISO noise are you comparing 10mp (1000D) vs 18mp sensor? Again can you post an image to show us.

Anyway there are some helpful ideas there you may not have considered. Let us know how you go.

[chrisk]

lol i can totally understand your frustration, it sounds like you just have a dud.
it happens. i know that wont make you feel better but it does happen.

[dviv]

As for noise and sharpeness with the 7D, have a look at Darwin Wiggett's take on the 7D. He is a very well respected landscape photographer and a long time Canon shooter and he says:

In our original review of the Canon 7D we absolutely loved the handling and performance of the camera but we just could not get sharp RAW files. In fact we found our little entry level Canon Rebel XSi gave us better files than the Canon 7D!

I've read through that review and it's totally rubbish - the guy contradicts himself several times, then refuses to try processing in a different RAW converter(!) or post raw files that could prove (or disprove) his point.

One of the most idiotic reviews I've ever read.

When Leigh had the 7D at the sculpture shoot I had a good play taking pics in normal and low light with several different lenses. (including two different L's). Until it was fully dark I had absolutely no focus issues at all.

I was very happy with the results from the VERY limited tests that I did.

[aim54x]

When Leigh had the 7D at the sculpture shoot I had a good play taking pics in normal and low light with several different lenses. (including two different L's). Until it was fully dark I had absolutely no focus issues at all.

I was very happy with the results from the VERY limited tests that I did.

David, you posted the photos here yourself. I have to say that I would be disappointed by the ISO performance from those images, there was simply too much grain at too low an ISO (grain at 500, and prominent grain at 800). As for AF issues, marcus's case is not the only reported case, there have been several separate reports, not to mention a few too many firmware updates, one of which addresses AF.

Not to rain on your parade, everyone has their own performance expectation, and bias. I am as you all know a Nikon shooter, but Marcus is a seasoned Canon user. I have seen and experienced the AF issues on his camera (and am hoping, for Canon's sake, that it is an isolated issue). We have checked the lenses in question on other Canon bodies (1000D, 450D) and if anyone has another 7D I am sure we would love to have see what they say on these issues.

[surenj]

Marcus,

Did you use DPP to convert your RAWs? I don't think LR knows how to handle these mammoth raw files yet.

Let us know how you go and would love to see some samples.

Dear Canon,
I don't F@#$@#$% want to spend hours micro adjusting my lenses. Make the camera so it focuses properly.

[photomarcs]

lol i can totally understand your frustration, it sounds like you just have a dud.
it happens. i know that wont make you feel better but it does happen.

Thanks Rooz lol much appreciated for the empathy. =)


Surenj,

I'm currently using the new Camera Raw 5.5 for Photoshop CS4, I'm also using the Lightroom 3 BETA which has already been released by adobe, yet i feel that post procession isn't the problem i have with images.


I will post some pics as soon as I can work out my website, till then it'll be a slight wait.

BUT FOR F**** sake canon.. i dont want to micro adjust every lens i buy.. its BS..



As for the Reviews,

Don't bother questioning them if you've only USED a 7D for a day or two. Wait till you own one to see the dark and light side of it.

[Wink]

From what i've read ACR 5.5 doesn't include support for the 7D. Either does the initial release of LR3 beta.

There seems to be a lot of posts around the place stating that ACR 5.5 is introducing noise into images from the 7D.
Here's just one example...
http://blog.photoframd.com/2009/11/12/canon-7d-digital-photo-pro-v-camera-raw/

There's an RC for ACR5.6 and LR2.6 which includes support for the 7D.
I'm pretty sure there's an updated beta of LR3 which also includes support for the 7D.

[photomarcs]

ACR 5.5 does support the 7D's raw files... does an average job of it, compared to CaptureOne its hard to distinguish the difference.

LR3 seems a bit abundant when it comes to just minor steps in adjustments, still, works well, i've just got to get used to one of the systems more fluently i believe.

Overall.. i hope i didn't get a dud, somewhere deep inside i hope i didn't get a dud.. knowing that the camera is purely demonic is good enough for me to slow fade back to my 1000D, or even Nikon.( not to say theres anything wrong with nikon, i just personally like canon)

[Wink]

Maybe i've got it wrong then...
Other posts say ACR 5.5 will open the files but it doesn't support the 7D.
The release notes for ACR 5.6 show...

Newly supported camera models include:
Canon EOS 7D

http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Camera_Raw_5.6
So to me that means it wasn't supported in previous versions.

[photomarcs]

woah! 5.6 is already out?

I only just downloaded 5.5 on the 6/12/2009 it says on my downloads files.

Hrm.. I must investigate, thanks for the heads up. =D

[surenj]

Good luck with the new software Marc. I hope you cn work out your IQ issues. Nothing like paying top dollar and getting a dud! [it doesn't matter if it's a one off dud or a dud model]

Fingers crossed for you.

[Wink]

No probs.
ACR 5.5 was released in September. ACR 5.6 is still a RC but it might help the noise issue. Keep us posted!

I've noticed David Ziser has been using a 7D quite a bit lately with good results.
http://www.digitalprotalk.blogspot.com/

[paulmac]

Hey Marc.

I'm a new 7D owner too, having stepped up from the 450D.

Take yours back and get it fixed. Or, ask for a replacement body...

There is an incredible amount of stuff that this machine can do. It makes holding (and using) the 450D feel like a toy in comparison. It's one of the few bits of gear I've had to open the manual for on more than a few occasions...

I posted a few of my pics here: http://dslrusers.com/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=38180

I've got the 70-200 f4L IS (drool), and I took it out with me for a day at St Kilda last weekend. I'm no sport shooter, but I did manage to focus on the windsurfers doing their thing 60-70% of the time. I didn't use Servo AF, as I've never really had much success with it, even on the 450D. Also, I always left the 450D on centre spot focus, and then recomposed as needed. Even with only 9 AF points, the bloody thing never focussed on what I wanted it to. I'd reckon that that's a pretty common thing with all cameras though, which I guess is why face detect in p&s cameras is such a hit.

With the 7D, I'm currently using Zone AF, using the centre 9 spots, just to see how the new focusing system goes. I love the fact that the focus points can change when you turn the camera to portrait mode. I've set this up so that it uses the upper points to focus directly on the face, without having to focus and recompose.

More practise is needed, but I too have had AF issues in low light with the 7D. With the 7d on a tripod and me using a remote control, it took about 12 goes to get the thing to focus on me, and not the shiny cars going past... That was letting the camera do it's own thing though, and I wasn't looking through the viewfinder to see what it was up to. That was with a Sigma 24-70 F2.8

In fairness regarding high ISO noise, could it be the fact that we are looking at 18MP images here? If you zoom in to 100%, yes you see noise, but aren't we looking at images that are 120cm x 80cm in size?!!? I do find myself thinking that it's not quite right though. Some high ISO pics I've taken with the 7D do seem to have a lot of chroma noise, and others have blown me away with the fact that they were taken at 6400 and look pretty cool.

Methinks that this camera is making me (us?) too critical of our gear. Or is it that it's actually showing up all of the limitations in our glass?

I wish you luck in sorting out your camera.

[photomarcs]

Good luck with the new software Marc. I hope you cn work out your IQ issues. Nothing like paying top dollar and getting a dud! [it doesn't matter if it's a one off dud or a dud model]

Fingers crossed for you.

Cheers Surenj, much appreciated. I'm going to let the Canon Representative from the store know exactly what is going on with my camera and yet to find out what to say to him too. Its hard to describe my problem, HEY! maybe i should get him on the forum =D




To Wink,

Cheers for the heads up, havent gotten to download 5.6 yet but i'm due to do so really soon. Cheers mate.




To Paul Mac,

Left you a comment on you're first image =)

Enjoy

[ATJ]

As with any problem, you need to eliminate as many variables as possible. At the moment you have the camera and you have the software. Either or both could be contributing to the problem. If Canon provide raw processing software with the camera (I'm a Nikon users so I don't know), you should be using that software to evaluate your images. If they are still poor, you can then at least blame Canon (for poor design or a dud individual camera).

[zafra52]

It's all very interesting. However, as I understand:
1) The noise in the pictures could be an issue of the software not being up-to-date or the firmware in the camera itself needing an update.
2) I still don't like the issue with the lens needing "micro adjusting". A firmware problem?
3) ISERVO still needs to be resolved. A firmware problem?
All in all, if you are not happy take your 7D back to Canon and demand an explanation and these issues resolved.
I wouldn't expect the 7D to produce images comparable to 5D MarkII or 1D Mark III, but I would expect the quality to be better than the 50D down to the 450D and earlier models. And I would also expect the camera to have the ISERVO fully functional (nor that I understand it let alone use this feature) and automatic focus each and every lens (specially Canon's own), but as we all know there are times when manual focusing is far more precised.
So take heart and demand answers. They want your money and you want their product, in fully working order. PS I happen to be a Canon user, but all the above applies to any other brand name. And please let us know when this is resolved to your satisfaction.

[dviv]

David, you posted the photos here yourself. I have to say that I would be disappointed by the ISO performance from those images, there was simply too much grain at too low an ISO (grain at 500, and prominent grain at 800). As for AF issues, marcus's case is not the only reported case, there have been several separate reports, not to mention a few too many firmware updates, one of which addresses AF.

Maybe I wasn't clear on my opinion. I should have said that I was pleased with the performance, based on:
a) It was an press eval model,
b) I had never used the camera before
c) I hadn't calibrated any of the lenses, and most importantly,
d) I was playing around in terrible conditions, rather than trying to do an in-depth or controlled test.

Taking all that into account, I think it did a pretty good job.

Not to rain on your parade, everyone has their own performance expectation, and bias. I am as you all know a Nikon shooter, but Marcus is a seasoned Canon user. I have seen and experienced the AF issues on his camera (and am hoping, for Canon's sake, that it is an isolated issue). We have checked the lenses in question on other Canon bodies (1000D, 450D) and if anyone has another 7D I am sure we would love to have see what they say on these issues.

You're not raining on my parade I totally agree - I have high performance expectations as well, and they have nothing to do with being Canon or Nikon. Again, my being impressed with the results from the scuplture shoot was based on the reasons above.

It would not be fair to pan the camera based on me not doing it justice.

I hope that the issues seen are one-camera based and I think Canon should definately address the issues.

[MSF]

I have put at least 15,000 images through my 7D and I couldn't be happier with it..

In the last couple of months I've given it a decent workout with some motorsport events, a couple of weddings, some macro stuff and a few nights of long exposures....

The only downside I had was that it took too long for my Battery Grip to arrive and had to shoot a few events without it..

I think you may have gotten a bad one and I am sure Canon will investigate and fix / replace it if it's defective..

Good luck..

[surenj]

I think it's easy to say that Canon should take care of it.

If the problem is not easily reproducible or easily definable (for example = every photo comes out black), it is very hard to get this goons to even look at the camera properly. Look what's happened to Cameron!

Anyways, I am still keeping my fingers crossed about this. Aren't you glad you got australian stock Marcus!!

[zafra52]

Maybe, it is not appropriate for me to suggest this, but I thought that Marcus and MSF (or another member with a 7D) should get together and compare camera performance, because I think than before taking Canon to the task and demand solutions (that is if the camera has an Australian warranty) one would have to be very specific with the problems. I know that if I had similar problems I would be requesting to meet any member leaving in Brisbane or environs. It's just an idea!

[surenj]

MArcus can you do a side by side comparison as suggested by Zafra? [You might be able to use the display model at your store as the control]

[norbs]

Like everyone else has said, sounds like you have a dud.

I was chatting to a local guy who was shooting some local cricket on the weekend. He was using 7D with the 70-200 f4L as well as the 100-400 f/4L. No problems with either. It focused very quickly when I had a quick play with it with both lenses and was as sharp as a pin.

[photomarcs]

Hey Guys,

Yeah I'll have to perform control tests.

Mine is definately a dud.

Confirmed by Canon's Sales Rep Christopher Allum.

All in all, if i can't get it fixed by the tech guys ( due to timing on my side, not canon's fault), they are willing to send me the method of recalibration. The firmware is updated, came as the updated version.

And using the store 7D as a control piece is slightly unfair for the buyers, i'll end up clocking about 400 shots before it goes to anyone. So i'll keep it closed for now.

Might convince my mom to go nikon though, Aim54x has already done that.

[photomarcs]

Btw, to All,

I might be contradicting myself in saying this, but some of the images I've produced from christmas lights with Aim54x on saturday night were astonishing, great for street candids and panning shots. Performed alot better than i thought for that purpose.

I'm contradicting myself i know, hence the title as "7D RAGE", I'm still upset about the fact that my 7D has more mood than some people i know, but hey.. coming from a dud.. i can't wait for the fix to come =D

[Wink]

Hi Marc,

How's the relationship with the 7D going now?

[photomarcs]

Hi Marc,

How's the relationship with the 7D going now?

Hey Wink!

The relationship is going ok, I'm learning to accept the 7D for what it is, but i'm still as yet to send it to canon ( backup body is with canon at the moment).

But, when it works well, its AMAZINGLY sharp. Didn't expect it to be this sharp with the 70-200 f4L.. =D

thanks for asking though Wink!

[surenj]

Any followup from the teething problems Marcus? I assume that they replaced your camera?

[photomarcs]

Any followup from the teething problems Marcus? I assume that they replaced your camera?

Hey Surenj!

Problems have changed now.. haha AF issues are solved.. nots no longer a problem. Now i have lovely dead pixels all over my happy sensor so it will soon be off to get replaced or pixel mapped.. eitherway.. I'll try to force them to give a perfect sensor replacement. but then again.. my actuations have sky rocketed.. lol

[surenj]

Thanks for this update Marcus.

AF issues are solved.

Was it machine failure or operator failure?

lovely dead pixels all over my happy sensor

That's a worry. So you did get a dud in many ways!

perfect sensor replacement

D3s or 3Ds.....

[aim54x]

Problems have changed now.. haha AF issues are solved.. nots no longer a problem. Now i have lovely dead pixels all over my happy sensor so it will soon be off to get replaced or pixel mapped.. eitherway.. I'll try to force them to give a perfect sensor replacement. but then again.. my actuations have sky rocketed.. lol

Ouch....You really have not had any luck with that 7D have you....

[photomarcs]

Thanks for this update Marcus.

AF issues are solved.

Was it machine failure or operator failure?

I'll say a bit of both, machine failure that the operator didn't realise sooner

as for a 3Ds.... by then I'll have my medium format setup Hassy + 80mm. can't go wrong

P.S. Surenj I've PM'ed you my personal number, just text me when you can.

Cheers

[surenj]

Hassy + 80mm. can't go wrong

Nah. sync speed is too slow.

P.S. Surenj I've PM'ed you my personal number, just text me when you can.

Marcus, I haven't received this. There must be a problem with PM/email.

[Matt. K]

Marcus
Canon have developed a fix for your camera. It's called a Nikon.

[aim54x]

Hassy + 80mm. can't go wrong

Nah. sync speed is too slow.

P.S. Surenj I've PM'ed you my personal number, just text me when you can.

Marcus, I haven't received this. There must be a problem with PM/email. I am on suren.ebay@gmail.com
Please send me an email. I will be in Sydney this weekend.

I'll fix that, Suren I will send you Marcus's number

[aim54x]

Marcus
Canon have developed a fix for your camera. It's called a Nikon.

That would be giving too much credit to Canon....I belive Ken has a better explanation.

Before Nikon or Canon releases a camera they go to Ken and they ask him to test them, the best cameras get a Nikon sticker and the less good get a Canon sticker

[photomarcs]

Marcus
Canon have developed a fix for your camera. It's called a Nikon.

That would be giving too much credit to Canon....I belive Ken has a better explanation.

Before Nikon or Canon releases a camera they go to Ken and they ask him to test them, the best cameras get a Nikon sticker and the less good get a Canon sticker

Doesn't matter, I'm still enjoying my photography does gear really matter in the end?


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nikon sucks. BAHAHAHA

[MATT]

Marcus
Canon have developed a fix for your camera. It's called a Nikon.

Wouldn't be so sure my D700 was trouble straight out the Box but after a few trips to Nikon shes all good. Even though Nikon claim to have not done anything

So your &D may jsut need a few trips in OZPost to fix her up..

Good Luck.

MATT

[surenj]

Thanks Cameron! All sorted.

[aim54x]

nikon sucks. BAHAHAHA

Less than Canon does....even Ken agrees!! (and we know how hard it is to impress Ken.... )

[photomarcs]

nikon sucks. BAHAHAHA

Less than Canon does....even Ken agrees!! (and we know how hard it is to impress Ken.... )

I showed Ken a picture of a of himself that moved as he did. He was impressed. *holds up mirror*

[aim54x]

nikon sucks. BAHAHAHA

Less than Canon does....even Ken agrees!! (and we know how hard it is to impress Ken.... )

I showed Ken a picture of a of himself that moved as he did. He was impressed. *holds up mirror*