Zoo-age, glass and processing

Got a thin skin? Then look elsewhere. Post a link to an image that you've made, and invite others to offer their critiques. Honesty is encouraged, but please be positive in your constructive criticism. Flaming and just plain nastiness will not be tolerated. Please note that this is not an area for you to showcase your images, nor is this a place for you to show-off where you have been. This is an area for you to post images so that you may share with us a technique that you have mastered, or are trying to master. Typically, no more than about four images should be posted in any one post or thread, and the maximum size of any side of any image should not exceed 950 px.

Moderators: Greg B, Nnnnsic, Geoff, Glen, gstark, Moderators

Forum rules
Please note that image critiquing is a matter of give and take: if you post images for critique, and you then expect to receive criticism, then it is also reasonable, fair and appropriate that, in return, you post your critique of the images of other members here as a matter of courtesy. So please do offer your critique of the images of others; your opinion is important, and will help everyone here enjoy their visit to far greater extent.

Also please note that, unless you state something to the contrary, other members might attempt to repost your image with their own post processing applied. We see this as an acceptable form of critique, but should you prefer that others not modify your work, this is perfectly ok, and you should state this, either within your post, or within your signature.

Images posted here should conform with the general forum guidelines. Image sizes should not exceed 950 pixels along the largest side (height or width) and typically no more than four images per post or thread.

Please also ensure that you have a meaningful location included in your profile. Please refer to the FAQ for details of what "meaningful" is.

Zoo-age, glass and processing

Postby biggerry on Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:13 pm

If it is not hard enough to get an animal to pose correctly, then trying to get a decent shot thru glass makes the whole experience a bit depressing. However, with the appropriate amount of beating the file over the head it seems one can return a image close to what the scene looks like without the glass, or at the very least close to what you see in person on the day.

So, what techniques, processing wise, do people employ to process image taken with a thick bit of glass with a reflective surface on the opposite side?

1) Colour feels natural and reflects what I saw, the whites are too cool tho imo. This one was a 4 shot pano (never thought I would pano a tiger)

Image

2) Again, very natural fur colour but the whites are not quite right imo

Image

3) & 4) two different options for processing, one returns the whites to something that I think is nice and correct, however the remaining image feels too warm. On the flip side, the other image is definitely too cool.

Changing WB does not seem to be the ultimate answer for processing, i think you need to look at whole range of factors, including the angle at which the lens is to the glass (not always a variable under control) and how far from teh glass, in each case it seems there is not a single method to get a consistent result, it seems to be case by case processing. thoughts?

Image
Image
gerry's photography journey
No amount of processing will fix bad composition - trust me i have tried.
User avatar
biggerry
Senior Member
 
Posts: 5930
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:40 am
Location: Under the flight path, Newtown, Sydney

Re: Zoo-age, glass and processing

Postby surenj on Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:51 pm

Two problems to solve here.

1. Maintaining 'correct' whitebalance
2. Removing color-cast provided by the glass (pray that this is fairly uniform)

Second one is could be tricky especially if you don't know what it is.

How about trying this.
1. Adjust WB using white
2. Adjust WB using gray
User avatar
surenj
Senior Member
 
Posts: 7197
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:21 pm
Location: Artarmon NSW

Re: Zoo-age, glass and processing

Postby surenj on Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:51 pm

sweet pics by the way. :cheers:
User avatar
surenj
Senior Member
 
Posts: 7197
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:21 pm
Location: Artarmon NSW

Re: Zoo-age, glass and processing

Postby surenj on Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:54 pm

On third thoughts, it looks like a magenta cast in one and too green in the other. Just slide the magenta-green slider hither and see whether you can 'eye' it.
User avatar
surenj
Senior Member
 
Posts: 7197
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:21 pm
Location: Artarmon NSW

Re: Zoo-age, glass and processing

Postby CraigVTR on Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:52 pm

Considering the problems with the glass they are very good shots, sharper than a tigers tooth. :)
Although I know sweet fa about colour I can see the colour cast. I cannot think of anything to try except the white, grey or black point droppers. :(
Craig
Lifes journey is not to arrive at our grave in a well preserved body but, rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, "Wow what a ride."
D70s, D300, 70-300ED, 18-70 Kit Lens, Nikkor 105 Micro. Manfrotto 190Prob Ball head. SB800 x 2.
User avatar
CraigVTR
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1243
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:09 pm
Location: Montville, Sunshine Coast, Queensland

Re: Zoo-age, glass and processing

Postby Steffen on Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:15 pm

Great shots, esp the pano with the cubs.

I reckon the WB is spot-on in the second shot. The pano is a bit on the cool side, and the last two are way off (to the magenta and green end, respectively).

Cheers
Steffen.
lust for comfort suffocates the soul
User avatar
Steffen
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1931
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Toongabbie, NSW

Re: Zoo-age, glass and processing

Postby Remorhaz on Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:04 pm

I like the pano and I don't mind that it is a touch cool - in fact I probably prefer those colours to the potentially more accurate second.

Likewise I much prefer the third (even with and perhaps even because of the magenta) to the fourth.

Man those babies ears really pop agains the oof mothers body - little dof in action here and you nailed the mothers eyes - what aperture/focal length did you use if you don't mind?
D600, D7000, Nikon/Sigma/Tamron Lenses, Nikon Flashes, Sirui/Manfrotto/Benro Sticks
Rodney - My Photo Blog
Want: Fast Wide (14|20|24)
User avatar
Remorhaz
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2547
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:14 pm
Location: Sydney - Lower North Shore - D600

Re: Zoo-age, glass and processing

Postby aim54x on Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:46 pm

I will be damned...a find pano that is!

I don understand what you mean by the WB issues...I have had lots of trouble with the tigers as well. These are very nice, and on my freshly calibrated screen they all display the subtle issues you describe. However, my knowledge of the conditions means I will back the first time images as being most natural, and to do better it will definitely be a case by case correction.
Cameron
Nikon F/Nikon 1 | Hasselblad V/XPAN| Leica M/LTM |Sony α/FE/E/Maxxum/M42
Wishlist Nikkor 24/85 f/1.4| Fuji Natura Black
Scout-Images | Flickr | 365Project
User avatar
aim54x
Senior Member
 
Posts: 7305
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:13 pm
Location: Penshurst, Sydney

Zoo-age, glass and processing

Postby chrisk on Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:38 pm

Yeah that tiger enclosure in particular is hell on the wb. Much more so than any other shoot thru glass i have experienced. Youve done a great job on the wb restoration though. I hope to get out there and have a

I love that first pano, what a superb idea, never thought of that ! The alignment of the white dots on the cub ears is very eye catching. The last 2 shots have a heavily processed look which personally i dont like much. Looks like they are really oversharpened and the contrast is too heavy handed.
EM1 l 7.5 l 12-40 l 14 l 17 l 25 l 45 l 60 l 75 l AW1 l V3
User avatar
chrisk
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3317
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:50 pm
Location: Oyster Bay, Sydney

Re: Zoo-age, glass and processing

Postby surenj on Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:02 am

Image
User avatar
surenj
Senior Member
 
Posts: 7197
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:21 pm
Location: Artarmon NSW

Re: Zoo-age, glass and processing

Postby surenj on Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:17 am

Interesting how FF and Chrome show slightly different colors. I guess chrome is not color-managed.... :roll:
User avatar
surenj
Senior Member
 
Posts: 7197
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:21 pm
Location: Artarmon NSW

Re: Zoo-age, glass and processing

Postby PiroStitch on Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:50 am

If you use Lightroom, try tweaking the Hue and Saturation settings as well for each individual colour channel.

Having said that, I don't mind what you've done with the third image.
Hassy, Leica, Nikon, iPhone
Come follow the rabbit hole...
User avatar
PiroStitch
Senior Member
 
Posts: 4669
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:08 am
Location: Hong Kong

Re: Zoo-age, glass and processing

Postby ATJ on Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:26 pm

I don't notice any white balance issues in the first two, although the whites do look a tad blue. The issues with the 3rd and 4th are obvious though. Can't you apply the same technique to these as you did the first?
User avatar
ATJ
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3982
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:44 am
Location: Blue Mountains, NSW

Re: Zoo-age, glass and processing

Postby gstark on Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:09 pm

I doubt that these are actually wb issues at all.

Look closely at the shoulder of the adult tiger in image 4: there's something green there. Now look in the lower lh corner of the same image, and you'll see a slightly oof piece of grass. Is this first green item a reflection or refraction from the glass through which the image has been made, or is it another piece of oof grass that just happens to be in the image?

Neither of these appear in image #3.

Each of these images should probably have the same colour temperature set in order to assign the correct wb; if the first two are correct (wb speaking) then ascertain the colour temperature for those images, and assign that value to these and see what sort of outcome that gives you.
g.
Gary Stark
Nikon, Canon, Bronica .... stuff
The people who want English to be the official language of the United States are uncomfortable with their leaders being fluent in it - US Pres. Bartlet
User avatar
gstark
Site Admin
 
Posts: 22918
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:41 pm
Location: Bondi, NSW

Re: Zoo-age, glass and processing

Postby biggerry on Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:20 pm

surenj wrote:How about trying this.
1. Adjust WB using white
2. Adjust WB using gray

CraigVTR wrote:I cannot think of anything to try except the white, grey or black point droppers


hmm, I did try using white point adjustment in particular using the droppers in CNX2, however what I found is that whilst it corrects the white, it throws out the magenta? and makes it look sickly warm.

Just slide the magenta-green slider hither and see whether you can 'eye' it.


yes, this coupled with a white point adjustment and warmth adjustmet seems to get clos eon a global level.

PiroStitch wrote:Having said that, I don't mind what you've done with the third image.
Remorhaz wrote:Likewise I much prefer the third (even with and perhaps even because of the magenta) to the fourth.


I think if you see this image in isolation it looks nice, however when you have another reference the cast stands out quite a bit, I also like this one, however I know it is not how the scene looked, even though the white is probably the most accurate here.

Steffen wrote:and the last two are way off (to the magenta and green end, respectively).


:up:

Suren, that reworked image you posted is quite good, the whites are perfect, however I think this illustrates the problem, whilst you have nailed the white the fur colour and temperature don't match reality, that said, I think using that one as a starting point would go along way to improving them.

Remorhaz wrote:Man those babies ears really pop agains the oof mothers body - little dof in action here and you nailed the mothers eyes - what aperture/focal length did you use if you don't mind?


all exif data should be there (except pano), however these are all on the 300mm f/4 @ f4 iso 800 with exposure comp -0.5


ATJ wrote:I don't notice any white balance issues in the first two, although the whites do look a tad blue. The issues with the 3rd and 4th are obvious though. Can't you apply the same technique to these as you did the first?


yes and no, applying the same technique gives a different result, i suspect it has more to do with the fact that the first two are shot perpendicular to teh glass and the last ones are more acute angle.

Refer to images at the bottom of the thread which I have reworked to try and match to the second one, however the processing is different for these

My main point is that I don't think there is a blanket processing you can apply here, you need to address each image case by case, depending on angle to glass, distance to glass etc.

Rooz wrote:The last 2 shots have a heavily processed look which personally i dont like much. Looks like they are really oversharpened and the contrast is too heavy handed.


fair call, the oversharpening is not something I am seeing, however it may well be more prevailent in the web sized version, the last image is actually slight OOF due to motion blur lol..

gstark wrote:image 4: there's something green there. Now look in the lower lh corner of the same image, and you'll see a slightly oof piece of grass. Is this first green item a reflection or refraction from the glass through which the image has been made, or is it another piece of oof grass that just happens to be in the image?


yep, that is a reflection on the glass, however i am pretty sure that is isolated, the other green patch you are referring to as you guessed is just a OOf grass blade.

gstark wrote:Each of these images should probably have the same colour temperature set in order to assign the correct wb; if the first two are correct (wb speaking) then ascertain the colour temperature for those images, and assign that value to these and see what sort of outcome that gives you.


sounds like a sensible way of doing it :)

I think my way was a bit more round about however here are some reworked versions.

Image

Image

I sooo had the best picture of day which was framed to the same as this next, however she was staring right down the barrel, as murphy's law would have it, on those 3 shots teh focus died and i have 3 stunning images all way OOF sigh...

Image


cheers for all teh feedback guys.
gerry's photography journey
No amount of processing will fix bad composition - trust me i have tried.
User avatar
biggerry
Senior Member
 
Posts: 5930
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:40 am
Location: Under the flight path, Newtown, Sydney

Re: Zoo-age, glass and processing

Postby surenj on Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:01 am

Hey Gerry, my edit looks slightly different on LR. Oh well.

I reckon just cut your losses. Correct for the 'ambient' and then selectively desaturate the whites.... :mrgreen:
User avatar
surenj
Senior Member
 
Posts: 7197
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:21 pm
Location: Artarmon NSW


Return to Image Reviews and Critiques