D800E or 5D mkii?

[dervish16]

Hello

I currently shoot with a Nikon D90 and my main lenses are a Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8 and Voigtlander 58mm f/1.4 both Nikon mount. I want to purchase a full frame body and can't decided if I should get the D800E ($3,800) or change to canon and get a 5D mkii($2,000) with a decent wide angle lens (e.g. 17mm tse or Carl Zeiss 15mm f/2.. I could probably keep my nikon mount lenses by just buying a cheap nikon to canon mount adapter. Obviously the D800E is a much better camera but it has a pretty big price tag. I shoot mostly landscapes that's why I'm not considering the D700 as 12mp isn't enough for the prints I do. Main things that appeal for me from the D800e are: medium format resolution, 14.4ev dynamic range, solids construction and weather proofing (camera will take a beating), 100% viewfinder coverage, anti aliasing filter removed, still very impressing iso performance, good focusing and pretty much an all round amazing camera but the only disadvantage is the price tag. While the 5D mkii is selling for pretty cheap now, has enough mp and great image quality but main thing bugging me is the construction isn't as solid as nikon (weather seals and plastic) and I like nikon and don't really want to change systems. What do you all recommend I do?

http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon_EOS_5D_Mark_II-vs-Nikon-D800

Thanks

Chris

[photohiker]

What do you all recommend I do?

Start saving!

In your shoes I think I would hang on until I could afford the D800. 5Dii is a nice cam, but you are up for new lenses etc, so it's not just a comparison of $3800 vs $2000. a 17 or 24 TSE lens alone costs more than the 5Dii at retail...

[dervish16]

What do you all recommend I do?

Start saving!

In your shoes I think I would hang on until I could afford the D800. 5Dii is a nice cam, but you are up for new lenses etc, so it's not just a comparison of $3800 vs $2000. a 17 or 24 TSE lens alone costs more than the 5Dii at retail...

Yep definitely need to save every penny haha.

Yeah but I could always just use my current lenses on the 5D with a cheap adapter and then in the future buy new lenses.

[gstark]

Chris,

Using the Tokina on a D800 body would, I suspect, be a very frustrating experience. Apart from the fact that it's DX glass, it simply would not do the body justice. I'd even have reservations about the Voigtlander being able to deliver anything close to the resolution that either of the D800 bodies would be looking for.

For your purposes, I'd also query the choice of the D800e over the D800.

But that's just me.

[dervish16]

Chris,

Using the Tokina on a D800 body would, I suspect, be a very frustrating experience. Apart from the fact that it's DX glass, it simply would not do the body justice. I'd even have reservations about the Voigtlander being able to deliver anything close to the resolution that either of the D800 bodies would be looking for.

For your purposes, I'd also query the choice of the D800e over the D800.

But that's just me.

Yeah that's what I'm worried about. I think the voigtlander should do fine as it does better then all the nikon 50mm primes and is comparable to the Carl Zeiss 50mm.

I would buy the D800e and then save up for a nice wide angle straight after.

Why the D800 over the D800e? Landscapes won't get much moire at all? or are you not sure its worth the extra $300?

Thanks for your advice.

[gstark]

Yeah that's what I'm worried about. I think the voigtlander should do fine as it does better then all the nikon 50mm primes and is comparable to the Carl Zeiss 50mm.

Many like to think so. It's not really. They're being kind.

Why the D800 over the D800e? Landscapes won't get much moire at all? or are you not sure its worth the extra $300?

Definitely worth it, (I'd certainly buy the E - we were discussing this at the coffee meet yesterday, as it happens) but you need to pick and compose your subject matter carefully. The AA filter is there for a purpose, and for most people's use, it would be beneficial.

From the background/experience/current equipment that you have (and please forgive me if I'm reading too much into that) I think that you'd be courting trouble were you get the E; I don't expect that it will be a very forgiving camera if you were to hit some difficult shooting conditions.

[aim54x]

Yeah that's what I'm worried about. I think the voigtlander should do fine as it does better then all the nikon 50mm primes and is comparable to the Carl Zeiss 50mm.

Many like to think so. It's not really. They're being kind.

I would agree with Dervish on this one. It is easily equal to the Zeiss in resolution, better in vignette/distortion/chromatic abberration.

http://www.photozone.de/canon_eos_ff/518-voigtlander58f14ff?start=1
http://www.photozone.de/canon_eos_ff/537-zeiss50f14eosff?start=1

Thank god too many people will overlook this lens, keeps the price down for those of us who are willing to take a second look.

The 11-16mm will be usable at 16mm but the resolving power will be tested by a D800....it will be an interesting combination.

D800 vs D800E? Most people are opting for the plain D800, but the D800E is enticing. It will definitely give you an edge, and if the promised plug in for CNX2 arrives you may not have to worry about the moire. Regardless both of these are expensive beasts that will ensure your skills are tested, especially on the handling front.

[dervish16]

Why the D800 over the D800e? Landscapes won't get much moire at all? or are you not sure its worth the extra $300?

Definitely worth it, (I'd certainly buy the E - we were discussing this at the coffee meet yesterday, as it happens) but you need to pick and compose your subject matter carefully. The AA filter is there for a purpose, and for most people's use, it would be beneficial.

From the background/experience/current equipment that you have (and please forgive me if I'm reading too much into that) I think that you'd be courting trouble were you get the E; I don't expect that it will be a very forgiving camera if you were to hit some difficult shooting conditions.

Well it's always good to have a challenge and plenty of time to learn. This is a camera I would keep for awhile and I think I would regret not getting the d800e in the future. What do you mean by difficult shooting situations? From what I've read the D800e sensor will produce moire patterns with fine patterns causing interference. This is mainly a problem with clothing and not in nature.

"An anti-aliasing filter, also known as a “low-pass” or “blur” filter, was designed by camera manufacturers to eliminate the problem of moiré by blurring what actually reaches the sensor. While extreme details are lost in the process, the problem of moiré is completely resolved. Since most cameras are designed to be used for day-to-day photography, where moiré pattern is very common, most cameras on the market today use an anti-aliasing filter. While this surely benefits most photographers out there, it is a big blow on landscape photographers that never see moiré and yet end up with blurred details. Because of this problem, some companies on the market started specializing in removing the AA filter from modern DSLR cameras, specifically targeting landscape photographers."

[dervish16]

I would agree with Dervish on this one. It is easily equal to the Zeiss in resolution, better in vignette/distortion/chromatic abberration.

http://www.photozone.de/canon_eos_ff/518-voigtlander58f14ff?start=1
http://www.photozone.de/canon_eos_ff/537-zeiss50f14eosff?start=1

Thank god too many people will overlook this lens, keeps the price down for those of us who are willing to take a second look.

The 11-16mm will be usable at 16mm but the resolving power will be tested by a D800....it will be an interesting combination.

D800 vs D800E? Most people are opting for the plain D800, but the D800E is enticing. It will definitely give you an edge, and if the promised plug in for CNX2 arrives you may not have to worry about the moire. Regardless both of these are expensive beasts that will ensure your skills are tested, especially on the handling front.

Yeah that's what I thought. It's such a nice lens and I remember reading that at f/5.6 it exceeds the resolution of the 5D MKII sensor.

I agree that the 11-16mm will struggle but still might be able to use it till I can afford a decent wide angle.

[gstark]

Well it's always good to have a challenge and plenty of time to learn. This is a camera I would keep for awhile and I think I would regret not getting the d800e in the future.

That, of course, is something to consider.

What do you mean by difficult shooting situations? From what I've read the D800e sensor will produce moire patterns with fine patterns causing interference. This is mainly a problem with clothing and not in nature.

Define "nature".

Yes, it can certainly happen with clothes, but it can also happen in nature. Or if you take a broad definition of "landscape photography", within that realm. Repetitive patterns on buildings, for instance. Think in terms of tiled roofs.

Often, it can be a simple matter of just taking a step to the right or left, but it';s something that you need to be aware of (and look for) at the time of making the image.

And it may not be immediately obvious.

"An anti-aliasing filter, also known as a “low-pass” or “blur” filter, was designed by camera manufacturers to eliminate the problem of moiré by blurring what actually reaches the sensor.

Correct.

While extreme details are lost in the process, the problem of moiré is completely resolved.

That sounds like it was written by somebody in marketing. Certainly, the AA filter largely addresses moire.

Completely resolves it? I wouldn't like to be placing my life savings on that statement.

Since most cameras are designed to be used for day-to-day photography, where moiré pattern is very common,

Again, no, I wouldn't say it's "very" common.

To my mind, with good glass and the D800 sensor, for 95% of shooting situations, the presence of the AA filter will not be a detriment. It's that other 5% that I'd be looking towards. It's perhaps a bit like the difference between the Nikkor 85mm f/1.8 and f/1.4 lenses. For most people, the f/1.8 lens is perfectly fine.

It's that other 5%; if you're shooting at the edge, where these things might make a difference.

For me, it opens up a slew of new challenges and opportunities, and the extra resolution, for me, can only be described as delicious.

But I don't see that as applying to most photographers.

Having said that, I can also tell you that Nikon's orders for the D800E are way in excess of their expectations.

Way in excess.

[dervish16]

Define "nature".

Yes, it can certainly happen with clothes, but it can also happen in nature. Or if you take a broad definition of "landscape photography", within that realm. Repetitive patterns on buildings, for instance. Think in terms of tiled roofs.

Often, it can be a simple matter of just taking a step to the right or left, but it';s something that you need to be aware of (and look for) at the time of making the image.

And it may not be immediately obvious.

Yeah but I wouldn't classify buildings as landscape photography or nature. Buildings are made by humans and not natural.

That sounds like it was written by somebody in marketing. Certainly, the AA filter largely addresses moire.

Completely resolves it? I wouldn't like to be placing my life savings on that statement.

I agree but the main point of that quote was them specifying the elimination of the AA filter is specifically aimed for landscape photographers.

Having said that, I can also tell you that Nikon's orders for the D800E are way in excess of their expectations.

Way in excess.

Yep as it's a great camera. I hope they don't raise the price in Australia and Asian countries, as they have already raised the price for the D800 in England

[dervish16]

Would this image have moire patterns in the eyes of the bug?

[Mr Darcy]

I would expect moiré patterns in the eyes. They basically show up whenever you have fine repeating detail. That could be clothing. It could also be bug's eyes, building patterns, rock textures, leaves, TV screens, flyscreens, etc etc.

I originally had the D800E on order as, like you, I thought this was a fashion shooter's problem. But after looking closely at some of the sample images I changed the order to the D800. I figure the resolution is so far ahead of my old D200 anyway, the little extra I would get by removing the AA filter would be neither here not there. If I was exclusively a landscape photographer, I would go the E, but I do lots of different things even though landscape is probably my main focus.

[dervish16]

I would expect moiré patterns in the eyes. They basically show up whenever you have fine repeating detail. That could be clothing. It could also be bug's eyes, building patterns, rock textures, leaves, TV screens, flyscreens, etc etc.

I originally had the D800E on order as, like you, I thought this was a fashion shooter's problem. But after looking closely at some of the sample images I changed the order to the D800. I figure the resolution is so far ahead of my old D200 anyway, the little extra I would get by removing the AA filter would be neither here not there. If I was exclusively a landscape photographer, I would go the E, but I do lots of different things even though landscape is probably my main focus.

Yeah true, the slight sharpness gain in the image isn't worth the restriction on your photography and paying $300 more for them to take it out. I guess if this was my job I wouldn't think twice about it but 36mp should be enough sharpness Not buying it yet so will have time to see if there is any good software release that can reduce the moire effect in post processing. Will rocks even produce Moire? Thanks for your advice.

[gstark]

Define "nature".

Yes, it can certainly happen with clothes, but it can also happen in nature. Or if you take a broad definition of "landscape photography", within that realm. Repetitive patterns on buildings, for instance. Think in terms of tiled roofs.

Often, it can be a simple matter of just taking a step to the right or left, but it';s something that you need to be aware of (and look for) at the time of making the image.

And it may not be immediately obvious.

Yeah but I wouldn't classify buildings as landscape photography

How about a shot of Circular Quay from Kirribilli? Would you call that landscape photography? (I would)

What about a shot from the bar at the top of the Shangri-La hotel, looking down onto the deck of the Sydney Harbour Bridge, and also looking east towards the Quay, The Toaster, The SOH, and Ft Dennison? I again would class that as a landscape. Sure, it's not natural, but many landscapes, today, are not.

How about a shot of boat masts in a marina setting? Is that a landscape? Again, I happen to believe that it is, but I'm perfectly happy for others to disagree.

That sounds like it was written by somebody in marketing. Certainly, the AA filter largely addresses moire.

Completely resolves it? I wouldn't like to be placing my life savings on that statement.

I agree but the main point of that quote was them specifying the elimination of the AA filter is specifically aimed for landscape photographers.

And I would respectfully suggest that the photographer shooting the person wearing a Pizza Hut tablecloth, or the David Jones wrapping paper, might be inclined to plead the exception to that that statement.

Having said that, I can also tell you that Nikon's orders for the D800E are way in excess of their expectations.

Way in excess.

Yep as it's a great camera. I hope they don't raise the price in Australia and Asian countries, as they have already raised the price for the D800 in England

From what I've heard, it's too late; prices have already increased.

But there's no RRP, so you're welcome to negotiate whatever you can.

[gstark]

I would expect moiré patterns in the eyes. They basically show up whenever you have fine repeating detail. That could be clothing. It could also be bug's eyes, building patterns, rock textures, leaves, TV screens, flyscreens, etc etc.

Yep. Exactly.

And the method of viewing, size of image, etc, can also affect this.

[dervish16]

How about a shot of Circular Quay from Kirribilli? Would you call that landscape photography? (I would)

What about a shot from the bar at the top of the Shangri-La hotel, looking down onto the deck of the Sydney Harbour Bridge, and also looking east towards the Quay, The Toaster, The SOH, and Ft Dennison? I again would class that as a landscape. Sure, it's not natural, but many landscapes, today, are not.

How about a shot of boat masts in a marina setting? Is that a landscape? Again, I happen to believe that it is, but I'm perfectly happy for others to disagree.

Yeah I don't know any of those locations haha but I agree with you. I'm talking more about natural landscapes but and as I live in what you would call a country town (Kiama) I don't shoot a lot of man made structures.

From what I've heard, it's too late; prices have already increased.

But there's no RRP, so you're welcome to negotiate whatever you can.

Damn, where did you find that out?

[gstark]

Damn, where did you find that out?

Nikon's PR people. Neither the D4 nor the D800 have RRPs set.

But until the supply exceeds the demand, I wouldn't be expecting too many bargains to be had.

[Mr Darcy]

Perhaps you should wait for the firmware upgrade to the D800. 108Mps! As Gerry would say: Sheesh
http://mansurovs.com/d800-to-cause-nikons-stock-price-to-drop












(and yes. I did notice)

[dervish16]

Perhaps you should wait for the firmware upgrade to the D800. 108Mps! As Gerry would say: Sheesh
http://mansurovs.com/d800-to-cause-nikons-stock-price-to-drop

[dervish16]

Hahaha I actually fell for it.

[biggerry]

Perhaps you should wait for the firmware upgrade to the D800. 108Mps! As Gerry would say: Sheesh

me?


fyi heres a basic review of the D800 with samples

http://alexanderfilatov.com/blog/nikon-d800-hands-on-review

[surenj]

This is a hilarious one.... This might be the first time one has seen a striptease during a camera review/comparison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AfA2mTMt0u8

[Remorhaz]

This is a hilarious one.... This might be the first time one has seen a striptease during a camera review/comparison.

 LOL - classic

Unlucky for the MkIII

[dervish16]

This is a hilarious one.... This might be the first time one has seen a striptease during a camera review/comparison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AfA2mTMt0u8

Haha yeah saw it before. The sharpness test isn't very accurate as the boat isn't stationary and as you know with the D800 a tiny bit of blur will effect it dramatically.

It's actually a MKII they smash.

[surenj]

Haha yeah saw it before.

I watched it a few times just for the ISO test because that was um..very interesting....

[dervish16]

I watched it a few times just for the ISO test because that was um..very interesting....

You probably already know but keep in mind that they would most likely be testing them at their native resolution but if you downsampling the D800 image from 36mp to 22mp the noise will be greatly reduced. If you are interested to know why read this: http://mansurovs.com/why-downsampling-an-image-reduces-noise

This is how DxOMark show their signal to noise ratio when you select "print".

It's amazing how good the D800 is at high ISO with the pixel density but it just shows how good nikon's image processing pipeline is.

[surenj]

Thansk Darvish. I wonder whether I can downsample my 18mpix to remove noise better than just pressing the noise reduction in LR.


This guy is also totally non-biased.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAtOxcJNoC8&feature=player_embedded

[tasadam]

Just thought I would mention as a reminder, the D800e does not have its AA filter removed, only the effects of it cancelled out by a different realigning of the filter that spreads the light. There's a good graphic demonstrating that somewhere (not going looking for a link on this iPhone).

[dervish16]

Thansk Darvish. I wonder whether I can downsample my 18mpix to remove noise better than just pressing the noise reduction in LR.

Yeah maybe if you not going to print it and just putting it online.

Just thought I would mention as a reminder, the D800e does not have its AA filter removed, only the effects of it cancelled out by a different realigning of the filter that spreads the light. There's a good graphic demonstrating that somewhere (not going looking for a link on this iPhone).

Yep

[dervish16]

http://youtu.be/9UBTE4xpvpk?hd=1

[dervish16]

Wooooo!!!! I’ve been dreaming about this camera since the first Nikon rumours post around May last year and didn't think it was possible but after working my ass off I’ve now ordered my baby So stoked!

P.S. and I got the E version

[aim54x]

Wooooo!!!! I’ve been dreaming about this camera since the first Nikon rumours post around May last year and didn't think it was possible but after working my ass off I’ve now ordered my baby So stoked!

P.S. and I got the E version

Congrats!

[dervish16]

Congrats!

Thanks so much mate! Feels 100x better then christmas.

I saw one of your post with a new FX camera, did you get a D800/E too or is that a D700?

[gstark]

P.S. and I got the E version

So, that would be the Nikone ?

Congrats.

[dervish16]

P.S. and I got the E version

So, that would be the Nikone ?

Congrats.

E for Exclusive or Excellence haha.

Thank you gstark

[aim54x]

I saw one of your post with a new FX camera, did you get a D800/E too or is that a D700?

I decided to get a D700, the D800/D800E didnt meet my perceived needs as well as the D700