Okay, so I'm stupid.. and it makes me more angry at Nikon

[KerryPierce]

This is a stupid rant, prolly not worth reading, but I had to get it off my chest to someone that has a chance of understanding my position. You guys understand the issues and don't sugar coat stuff, which is cool.

I've been waiting for Nikon to do or say something new about the encryption thing. I've passed on the d2x, even though it's in plentiful supply now, because of this issue.

Today, I got an email from B&H that the d70s is now available, so in spite of my very strong misgivings about supporting Nikon's stupidity and lack of manners, I ordered it and an 85 f/1.8.

Nikon is so stupid. Had they done something positive, I'd have bought the d2x, the d70s and the 85 f/1.4 instead of the 85 f/1.8. So, even though I spent $1300 on Nikon, they lost another $6k. The morons...

I'm running out of time and need the 2nd body now. So, it was buy another d70 or sell everything and switch to Canon.... If I knew I could get a handle on their stuff quickly, I'd do it.

The sad but simple truth is that I can't afford to switch systems right now. I've got too many important shoots coming up in the next few weeks and I simply can't be goofing around trying to learn how to operate a different camera system and goofy flash system....

Bah.... I hate being put in a corner like this. It's so frustrating. Nikon sure cares about loyalty from its customers..... I really regret not having initially gone with Canon now.

[stubbsy]

Kerry I sympathise with your plight. I'm thinking that Nikon may be learning from this given the new D70 firmware didn't include WB encryption when it could have. One thing that puzzles me is that given you're getting a D70s (which has WB encryption), but wanted a D2x I can't get a handle on why you got the D70s. I'm an optimist and I hope that Nikon will learn from this and remedy this in the future given it's yet another negative for them. If I was a pessimist I'd say Canon will probably start to do similar things if it works for Nikon.

So far as switching to Canon - you're right in this regard. If you were starting fresh Canon has now become a little more attractive and my hope is Nikon respond to that. Like you I'd not be switching because of lens investment (although I'm pretty sure I've seen mention of Nikon lens adapters of some sort for Canon bodies).

And yes it's a pain in the you know where

[xerubus]

Kerry... you are spot on....

I for one do not like having my hands tied... hence why I choose to use linux as my main o/s over m$. it seems that nikon want to go down the same path and try to keep everything in house... which i quite dislike as a consumer.

A switch to canon is not viable for me at this stage... however would be a solution... fingers and toes are crossed that a hack to the wb encryption will not be far around the corner.

cheers

[KerryPierce]

Kerry I sympathise with your plight. I'm thinking that Nikon may be learning from this given the new D70 firmware didn't include WB encryption when it could have.

Thanks, Peter. I'm hoping that is true.

One thing that puzzles me is that given you're getting a D70s (which has WB encryption), but wanted a D2x I can't get a handle on why you got the D70s.

First, I bought the d70s rather than another d70, simply because it will have higher resale value and should be easier to sell, should I decide to go that route.

Second, I'm not sure that the d70s has encryption. Nikon didn't mention the d70s with the other cameras that have it and the fellow on Nikonians has the utility to change the model in the NEF to d70, so it works in PS CS. In the end, it doesn't matter. The d2x for sure has the encryption and is a huge expenditure by comparison, with a far smaller resale market. As much as I want a d2x, I can't give them that much money, which would be a reward for their stupidity and apparent unwillingness to fix this issue. I just can't do that.

I'm an optimist and I hope that Nikon will learn from this and remedy this in the future given it's yet another negative for them. If I was a pessimist I'd say Canon will probably start to do similar things if it works for Nikon.

If Nikon does remedy the situation, I'll buy the d2x. If not, they might have a rough road ahead. I can't see Canon copying this stunt. I can see them using it against Nikon in their sales pitches. It's just another tick in the sales pitch box, but I think it will move a few more people into Canon's domain.

And yes it's a pain in the you know where

Yes, it is a PITA. Sure makes me grumpy. Hard to believe I'm getting a new cam and lens.....

[KerryPierce]

Kerry... you are spot on....

I for one do not like having my hands tied... hence why I choose to use linux as my main o/s over m$.

Well, if I weren't so stupid, I'd be running something other than M$ windows. But, I haven't got the time or talent to fuss with that stuff. So, I suffer through it.

it seems that nikon want to go down the same path and try to keep everything in house... which i quite dislike as a consumer.

A switch to canon is not viable for me at this stage... however would be a solution... fingers and toes are crossed that a hack to the wb encryption will not be far around the corner.

I also have some hope, either that Nikon will wake up and fix this issue or that some enterprising soul will hack the firmware on these cameras to fix it for us. They did that for the Canon 300d, so there may be a solution that way as well. It's just incredible that we would even have to think about such a thing....

[rjlhughes]

I may be wrong about this......

but when I recently had the choice between the Canon 350D and the Nikon D70s I thought long and hard.

Finally I decided Nikon (despite the better lenses and build quality) were jerking my chain by announcing the 70s. Late this year they'll probably announce their 8 mpix camera, I reasoned, and leave me with buyers regret if I buy a Nikon that's already an old technology.

With the Canon at least I'll have 18 months when I can kid myself I have a current technology camera.

Of course both are remarkable cameras. And as someone said digital cameras have lives measured in dog years.

Both companies dole out their technological advances slowly to us consumers in order to optimise profit.

Nikon made a motza (principally) out of the D70 and Canon's doing very nicely too thanks. Nikon, specifically, made much more than their expected revenues and profits last year.

You can argue that in order to keep up R&D in a rapidly changing market place companies need to make good profits, of course.

I suspect for the marketers and accountants at Canon and Nikon the issue is what the market will bear to pay to access the magic of these cameras and lenses.

Of course trying to inflict a proprietary technology on people, when open source is becoming so popular fits with the aim of maximizing profit.

What really gets me is the many Sydney CBD shops who will quote you RRP for a lens, but sell it to you for hundreds less if you can refer to another sellers offered price.


Bob

[gstark]

All,

Please welcome Bob as our first 350 user!

Bob,

Finally I decided Nikon (despite the better lenses and build quality) were jerking my chain by announcing the 70s. Late this year they'll probably announce their 8 mpix camera, I reasoned, and leave me with buyers regret if I buy a Nikon that's already an old technology.

I don't see that happening. There is no 8MP APX (DX) sized sensor available.

Rather, I see Nikon as keeping the 6MP size going for about another 10 months or so, perhaps, now we also have the D50, a fair bit longer still. It could be a good bottom feeder camera for quite some time, I expect.

But later this year, or early next year, I'm expecting to see the 12MP sensor from the D2X start to migrate downstream, perhaps in a D200 or D90.

[Onyx]

Kerry, you've been a strong opponent against Nikon regarding this NEF encryption issue from the beginning. While I understand your angst, and support your stance against Nikon claiming ownership of (at least a part) NEF file data, I don't believe your decision not to buy a D2X is justified.

For this issue to truly affect you, your photography and workflow, you would have to be:

1. Shooting NEF.
2. Relying on auto white balance predominantly.
3. Using Adobe Camera Raw exclusively for NEF conversion.

Points 2 and 3 are the main contention issues.
Point 2 - you can still select a WB camera preset, you can still use a custom preset WB (off a grey card for eg.), and it presents no additional problems in software for your workflow.

Point 3 - the encrption is merely refused to be broken by Abode for potential legality reasons - the same as why off duty nurses (at least all those whom I've known) claimed refusal to help others in medical need - they've all claimed being afraid of getting sued overriding the moral obligation of saving a life... however that's an off tangent issue here. The encryption has already been broken - there is currently aftermarket NEF converters available that has no problem reading this Auto WB issue, so it's not a dichotomous choice between Nikon Capture or Adobe Camera Raw.

I don't believe this encryption issue is as big or its impact as widespread as has been reported and debated.

My two cents.

[huynhie]

I'm with Onyx.

I just didn't have the time to type it

[stubbsy]

...I don't believe this encryption issue is as big or its impact as widespread as has been reported and debated...

Well argued. and if that's where it stops (and I'm hoping it will) then I agree. My fear is if Nikon had gotten away with this there was nothing to stop them encrypting everything. Hopefully all the fuss over this will make them see the error of their ways.

[KerryPierce]

Kerry, you've been a strong opponent against Nikon regarding this NEF encryption issue from the beginning. While I understand your angst, and support your stance against Nikon claiming ownership of (at least a part) NEF file data, I don't believe your decision not to buy a D2X is justified.

Hi Onyx,

The justification has very little to do with the current workflow and everything to do with Nikon's actions or inactions and how that will affect the future. Nikon has done nothing to address and correct this issue. Why should I continue to financially support them?

For this issue to truly affect you, your photography and workflow, you would have to be:

This issue has already affected me and my attitude toward photography deeply. Since Nikon has done nothing to correct the issue, I am left believing that they will likely continue in this vein and that the next camera, the d100 replacement, will be worse, in this respect.

2. Relying on auto white balance predominantly.
3. Using Adobe Camera Raw exclusively for NEF conversion.

The encryption of the As-shot WB breaks every piece of non-Nikon software that I own, not just ACR. It is not restricted to just Auto WB, it means As-shot, which includes the presets and Custom WB.

So, I can not even review the photos to properly assess them. Editing is only half of the problem in that respect.

Point 2 - you can still select a WB camera preset, you can still use a custom preset WB (off a grey card for eg.), and it presents no additional problems in software for your workflow.

I don't know where you got this information, but it is not restricted to solely Auto WB. The EXIF standard is not being followed. The As-shot WB is the end result of the WB selected, which means all presets, Auto and Custom and is critical to determine all of the colors in the image. Bill Claff states that a different image tag can be read and if a preset is used, it can find that, but that doesn't address the fact that +/- hue settings could be involved.

Point 3 - the encrption is merely refused to be broken by Abode for potential legality reasons. The encryption has already been broken - there is currently aftermarket NEF converters available that has no problem reading this Auto WB issue, so it's not a dichotomous choice between Nikon Capture or Adobe Camera Raw.

What about the other software that is broken by this encryption? You've distilled the issue to a point that is far too simplistic. It has severely stifled the 3rd party applications for such simple tasks as viewing the images. At a point in time where RAW conversion and editing is finally becoming a significant benefit, Nikon is trying to kill the benefits offered by the competition. 3rd party applications are proven to be faster and have better routines for several important aspects of the RAW conversion process. Highlight/shadow recovery, moire reduction, noise suppression and detail enhancements are part of 3rd party benefits. Nikon is stifling the competition while users of other brands will see a continued growth in this area and will derive significant benefits from that growth.

I don't believe this encryption issue is as big or its impact as widespread as has been reported and debated.

You're welcome to believe as you wish, but if your belief is based on the statements you made above, I'd suggest that your belief is based on erroneous and incomplete information. You have ignored the possible future consequences of Nikon's actions and the direction they are going.

Until they make some definitive announcement, nobody knows if they will encrypt the files more, with the next firmware update. Nobody knows if they will file a lawsuit against Bibble and Dave Coffin. Nobody knows if Nikon will have those guys arrested, which could be done, under the DMCA. Nobody knows if future cameras will have stronger encryption.

[beetleboy]

Onyx, when are you running for Prime Minister? I'd vote for you.

I was going to (and have done previously) say exactly what you did!

I don't see the big issue here, it's one little option in Adobe CR which can be EASILY overcome. I rarely use the "As Shot" option anyway and figure that Adobe will grow balls eventually and overcome this little hiccup.

Liam =]

Go Onyx Go! Rah rah rah!

[sirhc55]

Whether Onyx is correct or Kerry, the issue is that a company primarily producing cameras can determine the software you use and IMO this is wrong.

An analogy would be film cameras - what if Nikon had produced a film camera that could only use Nikon produced film, would they still be in business - NO

[birddog114]

Hi All,
This topics has been discussed with many posts in the previously threads on this board and it was revised with the same subject but difference header.

IMHO, most of our D70Users.com fellow members are quite sastified and happily with the u/g of new firmware of their D70 recently and WB is not an objection & issue in this u/g.

I'm sure everyone will let this issue aside for the time being until we can see some other damages, restrictions, limitations same as the answer from Nikon to million fans around the globe about the WB which Nikon may or may not impose in the near future.

Rant & flame are not help in both ways and we better save our time to go out shooting and enjoy.

And I'll wait to see what's going on with the D50/ new replacement of D100 same as the bright future of D3xxxxx in the horizon.