Momento Books at 4.6.05 Minimeet.

[Glen]

Hi all, have just been down to http://www.momento.com.au to have a look at their books. Impressed with the books and people. I will bring a few samples and info along to the minimeet on this Saturday for those who want to have a look at. Will be bringing a few sizes up to A3 and even some interesting uses of the books as wedding proof sheets for those that way inclined (at least no one can copy from a book!)

[kipper]

Momento was pimped by Catriona Rowntree the other week on Getaway.

[Frankenstein]

Momento was pimped by Catriona Rowntree the other week on Getaway.

...aaah, Catriona

[Wacky]

I'm still awaiting a response to an email query in regards to their seemingly dodgy Ts & Cs. Maybe someone here can explain the purpose of this condition?

9.2 You hereby grant Momento™ a non-exclusive, royalty free licence to reproduce, modify, adapt, alter, transmit and publish the text, images and photographs submitted by you to Momento™. You agree that Momento™ is not required to identify you or any other person as the author of the text, images or photographs submitted by you to Momento™.

What is stopping them using YOUR images in their own advertising, and making money from them?

[leek]

The sample books that Glen had with him at the Sydney mini-meet looked very good, but if that clause is included in their Ts & Cs then I for one will not be using their services...

If the text quoted by Wacky is the full text of that clause, then it would appear that they are trying to seize copyright of your images...

Do you have any information on the Ts & Cs Glen???

[Wacky]

If the text quoted by Wacky is the full text of that clause, then it would appear that they are trying to seize copyright of your images...

Do you have any information on the Ts & Cs Glen???

Leek, just to expand so all have the info I have, the Ts & Cs are at http://www.momento.com.au/terms_print.asp and I'll paste the entire section for you called Intellectual Property

9. INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
Images and photographs submitted by you

9.1 Momento™ does not claim any ownership rights in any images or photographs submitted to Momento™. You warrant that you are the owner of copyright or have the express authorisation of the owner of copyright in the text, images and photographs that you submit to Momento™.

9.2 You hereby grant Momento™ a non-exclusive, royalty free licence to reproduce, modify, adapt, alter, transmit and publish the text, images and photographs submitted by you to Momento™. You agree that Momento™ is not required to identify you or any other person as the author of the text, images or photographs submitted by you to Momento™.

9.3 Momento™ will not accept any liability for breaches by you of the copyright of any other party. You indemnify Momento™ for all costs and damages that Momento™ may suffer arising from any allegation that Momento™ is liable for any infringement of copyright arising from Momento™'s use, reproduction, modification, adaptation, alteration or transmission of the text, images or photographs submitted by you to Momento™.

9.4 You are solely responsible for complying with all relevant copyright laws that apply to you and your conduct. You acknowledge that you are aware that a breach of such laws may have serious consequences for you including both civil and criminal liability.

But one thing I'd like to know is, what rights do they actually get? Can they do literally 'anything' they like with your images, or are there still some limitations?

[leek]

If the text quoted by Wacky is the full text of that clause, then it would appear that they are trying to seize copyright of your images...

Do you have any information on the Ts & Cs Glen???

Leek, just to expand so all have the info I have, the Ts & Cs are at http://www.momento.com.au/terms_print.asp and I'll paste the entire section for you called Intellectual Property

9. INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
Images and photographs submitted by you

9.1 Momento™ does not claim any ownership rights in any images or photographs submitted to Momento™. You warrant that you are the owner of copyright or have the express authorisation of the owner of copyright in the text, images and photographs that you submit to Momento™.

9.2 You hereby grant Momento™ a non-exclusive, royalty free licence to reproduce, modify, adapt, alter, transmit and publish the text, images and photographs submitted by you to Momento™. You agree that Momento™ is not required to identify you or any other person as the author of the text, images or photographs submitted by you to Momento™.

9.3 Momento™ will not accept any liability for breaches by you of the copyright of any other party. You indemnify Momento™ for all costs and damages that Momento™ may suffer arising from any allegation that Momento™ is liable for any infringement of copyright arising from Momento™'s use, reproduction, modification, adaptation, alteration or transmission of the text, images or photographs submitted by you to Momento™.

9.4 You are solely responsible for complying with all relevant copyright laws that apply to you and your conduct. You acknowledge that you are aware that a breach of such laws may have serious consequences for you including both civil and criminal liability.

But one thing I'd like to know is, what rights do they actually get? Can they do literally 'anything' they like with your images, or are there still some limitations?

9.1, 9.3 & 9.4 are pretty normal and acceptable to me, but I would agree that 9.2 warrants further investigation...
As it currently reads, it would allow Momento to publish a photographic book containing one of your photos without seeking permission and without even naming you as the photographer...
This would absolutely not be acceptable to me...

[redline]

sounds like a stock image collection in disguse!

[sirhc55]

9.3 is dubious as well - read thoroughly the last part

Edit: Momento™'s use, reproduction, modification, adaptation, alteration or transmission of the text, images or photographs submitted by you to Momento™.

They are basically holding the person submitting responsible for copright violations even when they make changes themselves

[Glen]

John, totally unsure about there terms and conditions, I am guessing that because they are publishing a book (even with your permission) they want all the releases, or more likely a solicitor going overboard. Wacky what did they say when you rang them? I know they have a lot of email and website hits after the Getaway program as they mentioned all the extra activity it created, so email may be slow. Will call myself as well, we can compare answers with your call Wacky.

[Wacky]

John, totally unsure about there terms and conditions, I am guessing that because they are publishing a book (even with your permission) they want all the releases, or more likely a solicitor going overboard.

Yeah, that's my take on it, but it does seem rather extreme and over the top, but it's also suss how far over the top it is.

Wacky what did they say when you rang them? I know they have a lot of email and website hits after the Getaway program as they mentioned all the extra activity it created, so email may be slow. Will call myself as well, we can compare answers with your call Wacky.

I shot them an email, rather than calling....so I'll give them a bit of time to respond...as you say, they probably received alot of email after the show.

[sheepie]

The term clearly gives them the right to publish anything you send them - in whole or in part, and with reference to you or not! In short, they could (if your book was good enough) print off thousands of copies and sell them in the shops! Regardless of whether this is their intent or not, this is the outcome.

I won't be using their services with this term in their conditions.

Pity - would have been a fantastic record of a year's worth of pics.

I look forward to seeing the outcome of the queries, and will followup myself if the responses are favourable. Presumably it is just to cover their backsides, but that is not what the term implies - and gives too much away IMHO.

[MHD]

9.2 You hereby grant Momento™ a non-exclusive, royalty free licence to reproduce, modify, adapt, alter, transmit and publish the text, images and photographs submitted by you to Momento™. You agree that Momento™ is not required to identify you or any other person as the author of the text, images or photographs submitted by you to Momento™.

That is utterly unacceptable.... insane...

[sirhc55]

They are actually contravening the Copyright Act - as they are not purchasing the right to use your pics - in fact you pay them for a service

[Glen]

Just spoke to Momento, who are aware of this concern, due to Wacky and a couple of other emails, and they agree that the clause looks like they are going to publish your work. That is not the intention, it was put in by their solicitor for the situation when they publish a book and the persons withdraws permission in arrears, or for lack of model releases, etc. They do not want it to be so onerous and are trying to work something out which is clearer. They are going to get back to me and I will let everyone know the result.

One thing which should be mentioned here, I have met these people in their office and they are nice straightforward people who wouldn't be into ripping people off. If they were going to rip images off I think they would have a better way than taking what is effectively a pdf of your image, I think they would take the full image. Basically they are not that sort of company and want to make their service straightforward to use by pro photogs, so are willing to change pieces so that can happen.

[Wacky]

Thanks Glen, that's great news! I think most people had doubts that they were rip off merchants, however there is always that concern in this day and age.

The current owners may not have evil intentions (and by your description, sound like the sort of people we would all love to do business with), but what happens should they ever sell etc? They'd never be able to profit from my crappy images, but for others here who create fantastic ones ...

Hopefully they'll get the Ts & Cs updated and made clearer sooner rather than later...

[MHD]

Good news... thanks for clearing this up Glen... Look forward to seeing a sample!

[Glen]

I emailed Momento about this and provided a link to our discussion, here is there unedited reply in its entirety (I note they seem a little quicker than others when replying to a hard question )


Dear Glen

Thanks for letting us know about this. I'm very happy to confirm that there is no need for concern from photographers, regarding clause 9 in the terms and conditions. It is, as you suggest, an inclusion from our lawyers designed to protect the copyright of our customers and give us the legal right to present their photobooks online, in their private bookshelf. It is not designed to give us free reign over our customer's imagery.

The wording however does seem to be causing concern, so we are more than happy to reword it so that is more clearly states that Momento will not 'use or abuse' the photographer's work without their consent, but does ensure that we have the legal rights to present their flipbook on our website - for the private viewing of the creator and their invited guests ONLY.

The only situation where we would publicly publish the customer's photobook or images, is where we have separately contacted them to use their work on our sample page, or for our own sales and marketing purposes.

To further reassure you that we have no interest in compromising the rights of any customer, I can confirm that our staff have worked on a variety of projects designed to protect the copyright of creative artists including the first Australian digital rights management system and standard language, a self-publishing book service for the Australian Society of Authors, digitial rights management for musicians, and as advocates for digital media producers via the Australian Interactive Media Industry Association.

I trust that this answers your questions and removes all concern, I'd be happy for you to publish this on the d70users forum too.

You were also correct about the unanswered emails. We have been inundated with queries since PICA and Getaway, so it's taking us a little longer to answer. We will get to them ASAP, and will continue to update the FAQ section of the website so that any tech or customers service answers are available 24x7.

Cheers
Libby

[shutterbug]

but does ensure that we have the legal rights to present their flipbook on our website - for the private viewing of the creator and their invited guests ONLY.

STill do not like this. They should seek the photographer first, before anything is shown.

Also...do we have to use there program to generate the designs??

[Hlop]

for the private viewing of the creator and their invited guests ONLY.

These are seems to be keywords IMHO. You'll decide who will be watching it on the web, not them

[Glen]

Vince, I am not sure why you wouldn't like that? That is for one of two sections, either A) for your personal review (+ friends if you ask) or B)That is for the section of the site if you choose to sell your book through their site eg you did a book on Blue Mountains Landscapes and then sold copies to the public. I am assuming if a photographer asked them to sell his book on their website, he would not have a problem. I am not sure what you mean by "seek the photographer first". Could you explain your exact concern and I will see if I can find an answer?

Also...do we have to use there program to generate the designs??

I doubt if anyone on this website would know as no one has done a book with them yet. Probably easiest to call them and find out 02 9955 1447.


This service may not be for you Vince, though interestingly I thought pro wedding guys like youself would turn out the biggest users of a book like this as it is a way to give a proof sheet to clients with no chance of the images being copied but still looks impressive to the clients.

[Hlop]

This service may not be for you Vince, though interestingly I thought pro wedding guys like youself would turn out the biggest users of a book like this as it is a way to give a proof sheet to clients with no chance of the images being copied but still looks impressive to the clients.

Isn't it bit expensive service for just a proof sheet?

[Glen]

Mikhail, rather than give a client a proof sheet or Cd, a book could have bigger images which look better and sell more prints but still be more difficult for a client to copy from. It would be an impressive proof sheet which actually has value for the client. Really though one of the others would be better to comment on this as I am no wedding photog.

[shutterbug]

Hi Glen, thanks for clarifing that, now I understand.

I was reading the website...it seems like you have to use their program to generate album.

These books are very popular with the pro wedding photography community in USA, it has recently picked up in Aus too. I have recently introduced it into my album range. Great for proof books and parent albums. I will bring along a sample one day when I turn up at the mini meet. I use another company from the states.

[gstark]

This service may not be for you Vince, though interestingly I thought pro wedding guys like youself would turn out the biggest users of a book like this as it is a way to give a proof sheet to clients with no chance of the images being copied but still looks impressive to the clients.

Isn't it bit expensive service for just a proof sheet?

Depends upon how much you charge for your services.

If you're charging, say, $150 to shoot the wedding and supply proofs from which orders can be placed, then yes, you're quite correct. In that case, probably an old style set of proof sheets (contacts or slightly larger) would be the way to go.

OTOH, if you're charging $1500 or $3K or more (say) for a complete package, then no, and this would be an ideal vehicle for your initial display of images.

[Geoff]

Thanx for sorting and sourcing all this info Glen, it has been very handy. I have now d/loaded the software and will experiment with it over the next few weeks. I may very well try it with my next wedding shoot in June, but we shall see. As you've already said, a fantastic gift idea!

[JordanP]

I use another company from the states.

Is it cheaper this way?

Cheers,

[shutterbug]

Similar, more options and also can design my albums in PS and FTP to them. Good customer service and QC is exellent.

QC is very important, samples usually look good, but once they get busy, the QC decreases.

[JordanP]

cool, thanks for the info. I think with momento you can design in ps as well just ultimatley has to be saved into pdf for punching it into their program. I take the other points though.

Cheers,

[leek]

Glen,

Thanks for following up on that... I think that their response is very satisfactory... Unusually customer focussed in fact...

I was very impressed with the samples that you had with you last weekend and will certainly be considering using them in the future...

[Matt. K]

Glen
Fabulous work. I think you have done the forum a great service and we all appreciate the trouble you've gone to. The books are great...but I for one will not submit any work until they change their terms of contract. They may be nice folk...but a contract is a steel trap.

[Glen]

Just to let everyone know I got an email from Momento this morning saying that they had read our thread and taking the opinions on board and are meeting with their lawyers tomorrow. That seems reasonably customer focussed to me.

Also mentioned it is possible to submit books by other software` eg use PSCS then make a PDF, these details are available in the Pro section, which we are all eligible for by being members of a camera club

[shutterbug]

Hi Glen, where is the Pro section? Do I need to register first?

[Glen]

Hi Vince,

http://www.momentopro.com.au I think you need to register for some sections, didn't go through all the site, so not sure. Any problems give them a call, they are very helpful

[shutterbug]

Thanks you Glen, much appreciated

[Wacky]

From OCAU

Good news is that the terms have been changed - 9.2 has been completely removed.

We (yes I am from Momento) have been talking with our lawyer while this thread developed and he admits being a little overzealous (his words) in trying to protect us from potential copyright issues.

So please go forth and give us a whirl - I promise you'll like the results. We have recently release our new software version which includes ICC colour management and the leap in colour accuracy has been great.

Geoff

[Glen]

Thanks Wacky, I was out but got this email from Momento this afternoon. Nice to see a company which responds when shown ways it can improve



We have now removed the offending clause completely, and in the words of the lawyer himself, he was a little "overzealous" in trying to protect us from potential copyright issues.

So the following is no longer there;

"9.2 You hereby grant Momento™ a non-exclusive, royalty free licence to reproduce, modify, adapt, alter, transmit and publish the text, images and photographs submitted by you to Momento. You agree that Momento is not required to identify you or any other person as the author of the text, images or photographs submitted by you to Momento."