mini-challenge

[genji]

just wanted to get ppls opinion on a weekly/fortnightly/monthly mini-challenge? (m-c)

the m-c could be seen as a 'class lesson' in different style/techniques.

there would no prizes and no voting, but just discussion on the thoughts/process of obtaining the image.

any thoughts?

[Mal]

Nice idea. I already try and stretch the brian each Friday and try and submit to http://www.photofriday.com/
I would be more inclined to do it here than at Photo Friday

[genji]

Nice idea. I already try and stretch the brian each Friday and try and submit to http://www.photofriday.com/
I would be more inclined to do it here than at Photo Friday

lol, thats an interesting idea!,

[gstark]

Genji,

Not as a mini-challenge, but within the context of the tutorials, I would like to develop some exercises that people need to try and shoot.

We set some parameters and have the pupil go and shoot some images within the set constraints. These images are then critiqued by the tutors in a slightly more formal manner than what is the state within the critique section.

It's one of my backburner projects ....

[genji]

Genji,
but within the context of the tutorials, I would like to develop some exercises that people need to try and shoot.

yes, i believe some ppl are wanting some 'guidance'...

[Hlop]

It'd be a pleasure to do such exercises!

[birddog114]

It'd be a pleasure to do such exercises!

Where? in "SURVIVOR"?

[krpolak]

I recon it is a good idea. Even not as a challange, but as a workshop with decent critique and advices. It coule be good to see different aproach to the same subject.

Also it could be good to make it one week event, so people dont have to rush out whereas it still gives oportunity to make it at leat 40+ per year. And knowing subject before weekend when people have more time to spend on photography could be good.

Regards,

K.Polak

[sirhc55]

I am always willing to learn

[genji]

I recon it is a good idea. Even not as a challange, but as a workshop with decent critique and advices. It coule be good to see different aproach to the same subject.

Also it could be good to make it one week event, so people dont have to rush out whereas it still gives oportunity to make it at leat 40+ per year. And knowing subject before weekend when people have more time to spend on photography could be good.

Regards,

K.Polak

yes, and also coinciding with mini-meets aswell...

[birddog114]

I recon it is a good idea. Even not as a challange, but as a workshop with decent critique and advices. It coule be good to see different aproach to the same subject.

Also it could be good to make it one week event, so people dont have to rush out whereas it still gives oportunity to make it at leat 40+ per year. And knowing subject before weekend when people have more time to spend on photography could be good.

Regards,

K.Polak

yes, and also coinciding with mini-meets aswell...

genji,
But you're not coming up this way this w/e.

[leek]

I quite like the idea... Somebody sets a challenge / exercise on Thursday and everybody goes away and comes back with their offering, but doesn't post before the following Wednesday.

This approach would mean that people would not be influenced by other people's early submissions and we'd all learn something. We would learn in terms of interpretation of a theme, composition and technique...
As genji said, where possible, we could incorporate the theme as part of mini-meets.

I think that this could co-exist with the tutorials idea mentioned by Gary earlier.

Next question: who's going to set the topics?

[krpolak]

-->leek

>Next question: who's going to set the topics?

Easy. Lets everybody gives 5 subjects and we will have a list to choose from for next couple years Obviously current subject will be picked up by moderators or person carrying this event.

Regards,

K.Polak

[Hlop]

Where? in "SURVIVOR"?

I beg you pardon my ignorance - what "SURVIVOR" is?

[birddog114]

Where? in "SURVIVOR"?

I beg you pardon my ignorance - what "SURVIVOR" is?

Have you watched chanel 9?

[cyanide]

I really like this idea too - I have been thinking a lot about setting myself some personal workshops/themes and seeing what I can get out of them, but a more interactive version would be much better....

I am tempted to throw my vote down in the "fortnightly" camp, though, just to give people a bit more time... I know that weekends are the only time I can get out and shoot, for the most part, and then there's PP (at which I am spectacularly bad and slow).... weekly would be quite tight. I can see, however, that weekly would give us 'fresh' themes more often.... but I think that the people who would get the most out of these workshops are likely to be the ones who take a bit more time to get a finished shot (in all stages of the process, from conceptualising a shot that fits the designated 'theme', to capturing it, and then in PP).

Just my 30 won's worth.

[Hlop]

Have you watched chanel 9?

Err.... You mean TV, don't you? I don't watch TV - devil's invention

[birddog114]

Have you watched chanel 9?

Err.... You mean TV, don't you? I don't watch TV - devil's invention

Then what do you watch for your excersise then?

[radar]

Same here, really like it. Also, we don't have to restrict ourselves to just photography, some of the weeks can be on post-processing, eg B&W, borders, etc. It's all part of getting that final product looking its best. Weekly may be too often, fornightly or monthly get my votes.

thanks,

Radar.

[rokkstar]

Yep, I'm up for this.
Just like cyanide, I too was going to set myself some personal goals and challenges, but this would be a lot better.

[Hlop]

Then what do you watch for your excersise then?

Nothing yet

[famish]

Genji,

Not as a mini-challenge, but within the context of the tutorials, I would like to develop some exercises that people need to try and shoot.

We set some parameters and have the pupil go and shoot some images within the set constraints. These images are then critiqued by the tutors in a slightly more formal manner than what is the state within the critique section.

It's one of my backburner projects ....

Gary.... I would LOVE that type of exercise. At the moment I'm setting myself little parameters and projects, but am unable to critique it.

Fiona

[gecko]

I'll add my positive support to this idea.

Fortnightly gets my vote.

The idea of going into PP (borders etc) is also a good one.

Cheers
Gecko

[embi]

I'm in...fortnightly I think is the go though

[MHD]

I am happy to supply a website to assist... ie like the comp website with open submission, comments allowed, no voting etc...

Let me know what you want and it should be easy to set up (and I have badwidth to burn)

[leek]

Just one other point...
When choosing topics, do we need to make allowance for:
- the geographic diversity of our membership
- the range of kit owned by the membership

or just accept that some people won't be able to contribute sometimes???

e.g.
If The Sea is chosen as a subject, then it might exclude some people.
If Macro is chosen as a subject it might exclude some people.

Personally, I think that while we can try to include everyone, me may accidentally exclude people. As it's not a competition, I don't think that it matters too much...

[gstark]

Let's make haste slowly on this one please ...

There's quite a bit of resources required in the setup of the exercises that are required ....

[krpolak]

-->leek

Proposed subject could be broader, like water instead of sea. More abstract ones will force more creativity.

Regards,

K.Polak

[gstark]

If The Sea is chosen as a subject, then it might exclude some people.
If Macro is chosen as a subject it might exclude some people.

As exercises, that's not quite what I have in mind.

My thoughts are that we would have a specific skill that we might be trying to understand or master - say Depth of Field - and we would describe, first of all, some elements of DoF that it might be beneficial to have an understanding of, so that we can better control that element as it affects our photography.

We would then describe an exercise that needed to be performed, and ask for submissions to be made in line with that exercise. Those submissions would then be critiqued by a person (or perhaps a group of people) specifically assigned that role, and they would critiqued within the context of the set assignment.

By placing these within the context of our tutorials, these could be done at a person's liesure, and possibly in no specific sequence either.

These are just my rough conceptual thoughts ....

Feel free to add yours as you see fit.

[cyanide]

Perhaps those general 'themes' - ie Depth of Field, Shutter speed, High Key, White Balance etc, which are more directly related to technique, will be "recycled" more often (I am thinking long-term here, ie over a year or two) but could be interspersed with more specifically-themed ones such as, as someone mentioned, 'Water", or whatever.

The technique-based ones would certainly be welcome and will enable us to work very specifically on a particular (technical) aspect of photography. The other themes would, however, still help - in that part of photography is "thinking outside the box", and as such people will have to apply their skills to a certain topic.

Perhaps, though, Gary, you are thinking that the second type of theme is more suited to keep to the comps, and intend to make these workshops/excercises more on the technique side of things? (either is fine with me - I will be keen regardless! )

Appreciate that this will not happen overnight, either.


Edit: Ah, I see now your post re keeping these open-ended timing-wise.... so there would be no need to "recycle".... (I had that post in draft for ages so missed your post before submitting)

[gstark]

Perhaps, though, Gary, you are thinking that the second type of theme is more suited to keep to the comps, and intend to make these workshops/excercises more on the technique side of things? (either is fine with me - I will be keen regardless! )

Pretty much.

I believe that there is a real need for a technique based set of tasks, and some of those could be quite advanced.

The creative side is very subjective - have a look at what's been posted over the last week - and I have little desire to bring any of that sort of controversy into a region where we're trying to teach newbies (of whatever hue) some of the more basic issues.

Let's just take, for instance, the topic of water ... yes, heaps of scope for creativity, but isn't it likely to start more of the same sort of discussion when we come back to Person A having a differing interpretation of the theme from that of Person B ?

I suspect that - and especially in the case of newbies - that sort of controversy is exactly what we want to avoid.

Thus we employ KISS, and relate these exercises - which can also scratch the surface of interpretation - more to areas where interpretation does not play a major role, and the goals thus become a little more simple and lot more clear.

[leek]

Perhaps, though, Gary, you are thinking that the second type of theme is more suited to keep to the comps, and intend to make these workshops/excercises more on the technique side of things? (either is fine with me - I will be keen regardless! )

Pretty much.

I believe that there is a real need for a technique based set of tasks, and some of those could be quite advanced.

The creative side is very subjective - have a look at what's been posted over the last week - and I have little desire to bring any of that sort of controversy into a region where we're trying to teach newbies (of whatever hue) some of the more basic issues.

Let's just take, for instance, the topic of water ... yes, heaps of scope for creativity, but isn't it likely to start more of the same sort of discussion when we come back to Person A having a differing interpretation of the theme from that of Person B ?

I suspect that - and especially in the case of newbies - that sort of controversy is exactly what we want to avoid.

Thus we employ KISS, and relate these exercises - which can also scratch the surface of interpretation - more to areas where interpretation does not play a major role, and the goals thus become a little more simple and lot more clear.

Gary,

While the formal exercises are an excellent idea and would help those like myself who are keen to learn, I see them as very different to the weekly / fortnightly challenge originally proposed by Genji... I have personally followed and benefited from the Exposure 101 exercise posted by MattK, but I find it very different to what was originally proposed in this thread...

There seems to be a lot of support for a more frequent, less competitive series of assignments with a sense of fun, and I for one would welcome an optional theme for my weekend shooting missions...

Are you saying that you are not in favour of us going ahead with a more frequent mini-challenge under the Shooting Assignment section?

Personally, I think that genji's idea can progress and that the idea of formal exercises can co-exist when you are ready to implement it...

[gstark]

John,

Gary,

While the formal exercises are an excellent idea and would help those like myself who are keen to learn, I see them as very different to the weekly / fortnightly challenge originally proposed by Genji... I have personally followed and benefited from the Exposure 101 exercise posted by MattK, but I find it very different to what was originally proposed in this thread...

Fair enough

There seems to be a lot of support for a more frequent, less competitive series of assignments with a sense of fun, and I for one would welcome an optional theme for my weekend shooting missions...

Are you saying that you are not in favour of us going ahead with a more frequent mini-challenge under the Shooting Assignment section?

Not at all, but simply that it's not what I was envisaging.

[Aussie Dave]

I think both could co-exist quite fine here. Perhaps if both were spread out, say fortnightly (as suggested earlier), and run on opposing weeks, people could choose to either participate in all or some, depending on what takes people's fancy at the time. Not every topic will appeal to everyone, so it wouldn't be a huge wait until the next topic would arise.

Just a thought !

I think the exercises you are looking at Gary are a splendid idea. It would be a great refresher for those that are already competent and a wonderful way for newbies and the less-competent to learn about the basics, along with the advanced. Also, throwing things like Post Processing, etc.. into the mix is another good idea.....as digital photography is not just about taking the photo, it's also about finishing it off on the computer (IMHO).

Great ideas. I hope these can come to fruition in the near future !

[HappyFotographer]

Just to add my bit to the rumbling.

I like both ideas. While my technique (what technique I hear you all shout) could do with some structured learning I think that a fortnightly mini challenge would also go a long way into helping out.

For one it would actually get me out and shooting, but without the stress of "is this good enough for the comp" or, "does this fit the theme" running through my head and in the end, drying up any attempt to shoot.

It could be simple things like, person walking a dog, child running, water, shadows etc....

I belonged to an Olympus group that had similar thing going, and it was a nice buzz when something won.

Now back the the morning coffee.

Cheers
Deb

[gstark]

Deb

I belonged to an Olympus group that had similar thing going, and it was a nice buzz when something won.

This is where I have a bit of an issue.

I do not want these training/learning exercises to be competetive. As soon as we have a winner, there are also, by definition, losers. From the educational perspective, I'm yet to be convinced that that is a good idea.

Having everyone on an even footing seems to me slightly better, but then I look at basic schooling where we have the concept of grading exercises ....

[HappyFotographer]

OK, won was the wrong word....how about gained recognition, support, I finally got something right?

But you are correct, I don't want it to be a competition.

See what happens when I post before I see the bottom of my first coffee.

For me, it would be about having a reason to shoot, learning something while at it.......I know that sounds similar to what already happens on this board, but this way it might be a tad more structured...... I'm sorry, I know what I want to say....it's just not coming out.

Deb

[HappyFotographer]

Actually Gary, in primary school at least there is no side-by-side grading anymore...just the achievement or non achievement of outcomes.

This quote taken directly from my son's school reports....

"Sean's report relates to his own work - not to the other students in the class or year. "Outcomes Education" means that a student is rated for his ability to achieve in a subject - rather than rating them against the other students in the class. Imagine this as if the student was sitting for a licence in each subject (like a driver's licence). It is not our concern if others gain their licence. We only want to know how far Sean is on his way to proficiency in the KLA (Key Learning Area)."

Having everyone on an even footing seems to me slightly better, but then I look at basic schooling where we have the concept of grading exercises ....

The mini challenges being approached with this in mind I presume is what you are after.

Cheers
Deb

[Aussie Dave]

perhaps the person/people conducting the exercise could comment on images posted with ways to improve or things that were done well ?!? Then everyone else could add their own personal comments so everyone gets some feedback on what they've done.

I agree, there shouldn't be any grading for these exercises. Just constructive critisism/support so everyone can learn from each exercise.

[stubbsy]

I think that both the technical exercises as articulated by Gary and the interpretive exercises as proposed by Genji both make sense. Having these on alternating fortnights just seems too frequent and I think we'd get burn out. I'd suggest we run them on alternating months.

[gstark]

Deb,

Actually Gary, in primary school at least there is no side-by-side grading anymore...just the achievement or non achievement of outcomes.

This quote taken directly from my son's school reports....

"Sean's report relates to his own work - not to the other students in the class or year. "Outcomes Education" means that a student is rated for his ability to achieve in a subject - rather than rating them against the other students in the class. Imagine this as if the student was sitting for a licence in each subject (like a driver's licence). It is not our concern if others gain their licence. We only want to know how far Sean is on his way to proficiency in the KLA (Key Learning Area)."

Having everyone on an even footing seems to me slightly better, but then I look at basic schooling where we have the concept of grading exercises ....

The mini challenges being approached with this in mind I presume is what you are after.

Thank you for this posting.

We're trying to master certain concepts and skills, be they technical, PP, creative, whatever, and I really don't want this to be something where someone "wins" and another "loses"; likening it to a driver's licence, where everybody is judged against (hopefully) the same standard, comes very close to what I'm thinking, as are the concepts espoused within your quote from the school report.

[gstark]

perhaps the person/people conducting the exercise could comment on images posted with ways to improve or things that were done well ?!? Then everyone else could add their own personal comments so everyone gets some feedback on what they've done.

Which is exactly how the image critique section currently works.

I agree, there shouldn't be any grading for these exercises. Just constructive critisism/support so everyone can learn from each exercise.

Which is also exactly how the image critique section currently works.

[gstark]

I think that both the technical exercises as articulated by Gary and the interpretive exercises as proposed by Genji both make sense. Having these on alternating fortnights just seems too frequent and I think we'd get burn out. I'd suggest we run them on alternating months.

Peter,

My concept of the technical exercises is that they be completed at no fixed time, but simple when the person undertaking them wishes to do them. Informal in their uptake, but formal in their structure and outcomes.

I agree that a fortnightly exercise seems a tad too onerous - we also need to consider the people who'll be running these things too - and one per month sounds like a good idea ...

Perhaps a structure along the lines of ... for the nominated day of the month ...

1 - 5 : Presentation and discussion of the topic to the masses; discussion of expected outcomes ...

6-15 : Make images, upload to server. Server closes at midnight on the 15th.

15-20: assessment of images by overseeing photographers.

21-end of month: Post mortem discussions of images submitted.

These are just some rough thoughts; please feel free to tear them apart.

[Sheetshooter]

If I may state a personal observation: I have never liked the notion of 'WINNERS' including when I was a school kid and would win the monthly comp at Waverley Camera Club. The concept of 'winning' with a photograph is totally alien to me and is akin to being the world champion meditator or reader. It just doesn't mean anything worthwhile - a bit of kudos perhaps and the acclaim of your peers for a moment, but beyond that ... WHAT?

The idea of a series of learning exercises is a ripper in my eyes. But it certainly does not have room for 'winning' and perhaps the first thing that should go is the word 'CHALLENGE'.

Cheers,

[Aussie Dave]

Peter,

My concept of the technical exercises is that they be completed at no fixed time, but simple when the person undertaking them wishes to do them. Informal in their uptake, but formal in their structure and outcomes.

I agree that a fortnightly exercise seems a tad too onerous - we also need to consider the people who'll be running these things too - and one per month sounds like a good idea ...

Perhaps a structure along the lines of ... for the nominated day of the month ...

1 - 5 : Presentation and discussion of the topic to the masses; discussion of expected outcomes ...

6-15 : Make images, upload to server. Server closes at midnight on the 15th.

15-20: assessment of images by overseeing photographers.

21-end of month: Post mortem discussions of images submitted.

These are just some rough thoughts; please feel free to tear them apart.

Gary,
after thinking a little more about this & from reading your posts, I think a monthly basis would probably be a better option IMO (I hadn't really considered the people who'd run these exercises - how rude of me )

The only thing I'm confused about, from your post above is where you say "they can be completed at no fixed time", however you have suggested a schedule of how the exercises could be run throughout the course of the month - with day 6 - 15 as the period to upload images to server.
Could you perhaps explain what you mean by this ?

My take on these 2 different challenges/exercises/whatever you want to call them, is:

Mini-challenge:
A way to get people out and about, taking photos - basically offering up a topic or idea so people can have a predetermined idea on what they are going out to photograph... These are not judged and there are no winners/losers. Perhaps the word "Challenge" should be replaced with something that sounds less competitive....but I'm not sure what ??

Exercises/Tutorials:
This would be an area where everyone can experiment and learn "specific" areas of photography/digital photography to enhance their craft (ie. using DOF effectively, Understanding how to use ISO levels, Exposure Compensation and it's affects on an image, Flash photography, etc etc...)

[genji]

the first thing that should go is the word 'CHALLENGE'.

Cheers,

how about esquisse...

[leek]

Gee... this idea seems to have taken on a life of its own since Genji's very modest suggestion...

just wanted to get ppls opinion on a weekly/fortnightly/monthly mini-challenge? (m-c)

the m-c could be seen as a 'class lesson' in different style/techniques.

there would no prizes and no voting, but just discussion on the thoughts/process of obtaining the image.

any thoughts?

My interpretation was that there would be no need for people to "run it" and that photos would be submitted to the Image Critique Section under the same thread that started each assignment... People could comment, critique and analyse as normal - it's just that people would have an optional theme to work to within any particiular period...

I don't see that anyone violently disagrees with this proposal, and indeed there seems to be a lot of enthusiasm about it so let's call it the Weekly/Fortnightly/Monthly Photo Assignment and get on with it.

Genji... Start a thread, set a theme and a period and let's get going... If we wait any longer then your idea will turn into a camel ...

Can I suggest that you ask everyone who submits an image to also submit an theme suggestion for a future assignment...

[HappyFotographer]

the first thing that should go is the word 'CHALLENGE'.

Cheers,

how about esquisse...

I'm not even going to pretend I know what that word means....but honestly I think we are getting caught up in the name for no reason.

Why on earth can't it be called a challenge...aren't we challenging ourselves to shoot better/different images than we are currently......isn't it that what this is all about. I would call going out and shooting a subject that I normally wouldn't a personal challenge......just because the word challenge is in there doesn't mean I expect to "win" a prize.

I really think we are getting bogged down in the little things and not making much of a mark on what we really want to do, which is to shoot images and gain consistant, constructive advice/opinions.

Deb

[radar]

Mini-challenge:
A way to get people out and about, taking photos - basically offering up a topic or idea so people can have a predetermined idea on what they are going out to photograph... These are not judged and there are no winners/losers. Perhaps the word "Challenge" should be replaced with something that sounds less competitive....but I'm not sure what ??

On the French D70 forum, they have a monthly workshop, they call it:

Exercices de Style [Avril] : L'atelier
It is found here

Basically, one of the moderators posts a topic, ie Style Exercise. In April, on the French site it was Red. You had to submit photos with red. All submissions are on the original thread of the announcement, people comment on the pictures, etc. Only one submission allowed per participant. The photo has to be taken during that month, so no archives allowed. You can post it at anytime during the month.

While the workshop is going on, the thread is set to be "sticky" so it stays at the top of the forum listing. All this could be happening in the current "Image Reviews and Critiques" section.

As there are comments on the photo, participants can go and work on the photo and just resubmit it. All comments/questions/etc are all kept in the one thread.

Eventually, all the photos are all grouped together in one post as seen here. It make is easy to go an look back.

Seems to work well, obviously, you need one monthly "moderator" to choose the Style for the month and collate the images at the end. It doesn't have to be a "moderator", could be volunteer members as well. That way it spreads the load.

Some of the themes they have had: Red, B&W pics, B&W pics (but without PP, so pictures of black&white objects)

Seems to work well, participation rates tend to be good,

My 0.02 euros

Cheers,

Radar

[rokkstar]

I don't see that anyone violently disagrees with this proposal, and indeed there seems to be a lot of enthusiasm about it so let's call it the Weekly/Fortnightly/Monthly Photo Assignment and get on with it.

Genji... Start a thread, set a theme and a period and let's get going... If we wait any longer then your idea will turn into a camel ...

Can I suggest that you ask everyone who submits an image to also submit an theme suggestion for a future assignment...

I agree. I thought the idea was a very simple one to begin with but it has been discussed beyond the initial proposal.
As genji was the instigator, he(?) should just simply come up with a theme in the Image reviews section and lets all go and start shooting images on that theme. We can then all add our image to that one thread.
We can then look at peoples interpretation, and learn from each other.