Helping the newbies/each other

[informer]

Ok I think my post may sound a little direct, but here goes...

I feel that the "in people" gets the better end of the stick especially on image reviews and critque.

I'm sure if gstark or sheepie (no offense guys just using you as an example) posted a picture it would not go unanswered. Pehaps they've posted some quality shots before and so people are always ready to give comments and most of the time a pat on the back.

There are also pictures that I don't understand (like the current photo of the week) yet gets praises from the same sort of "in people".

Newbies don't often get that sort of response when they're starting out for the first time, and it is this very section of the forum that they can be judge upon by their photography skills for them to improve. After all, this forum doesn't just talk about a camera but also the reason why we buy such a camera, to produce great pictures.

Criticism cetainly helps us to grow, but encouragement helps to keep us going. Remember, newbies comes in all shapes and sizes (teenagers, professionals forced to learn photography from work, older people looking for a hobby etc).

If nobody (out of the hundred of users there are on this board) is going to comment on the images posted on image reviews, then that section is as good being a photo gallery. I wouldn't even bother posting any more pictures if I can't progress, and I'll take pictures according to what I think is right (which could be wrong).

I also think posting the camera settings and other information on how the picture was taken should be included for every image, this would help newbies a lot.

I'm an old hand on some of the other forums that I use (cars, computers, travelling forums) so when people talk about something that I love, I love talking about it. That's passion! If you got that, then there's no stopping anyone from contributing to a forum that they enjoy visiting.

Compared to the other camera forums that I've visited, this is a great forum so far and I hope to gain as much knowledge as I can about taking pictures.

Ok rant over!

[gstark]

Ok I think my post may sound a little direct, but here goes...

I feel that the "in people" gets the better end of the stick especially on image reviews and critque.

I'm sure if gstark or sheepie (no offense guys just using you as an example) posted a picture it would not go unanswered.

I can't speak for sheepie, but I can tell you that many of my posted images have not recieved any comment.

And it bothers me not.

Pehaps they've posted some quality shots before and so people are always ready to give comments and most of the time a pat on the back.

I understand what you're saying, but the last thing I want when I'm posting an image is a pat on the back. Usually, it'll also be the last thing I deserve.

There are also pictures that I don't understand (like the current photo of the week) yet gets praises from the same sort of "in people".

Forget about the praise of others. If you don't get it, say so.

Or not. That's your choice.

Newbies don't often get that sort of response when they're starting out for the first time, and it is this very section of the forum that they can be judge upon by their photography skills for them to improve. After all, this forum doesn't just talk about a camera but also the reason why we buy such a camera, to produce great pictures.

Actually, newbies are also welcome to post their images in the newbies section too, but either way, the intent is to give them a fair but positive critique of their image and/or technique, but all of this is subjective, and only in the eye of the respondent.

Criticism cetainly helps us to grow, but encouragement helps to keep us going.

Which is exactly how I see most criticism here posted.

If nobody (out of the hundred of users there are on this board) is going to comment on the images posted on image reviews, then that section is as good being a photo gallery.

But that opens up an issue I cannot, and will not, address. How do you suggest that we make it compulsory for people to comment on every image?

Unless and until we do this - and I'm certainly not prepared to even entertain that as as even a semi-realistic possibility - we must accept that the alternative course of action, with all of it's warts and blisters, is the far more acceptable of the two.

I also think posting the camera settings and other information on how the picture was taken should be included for every image, this would help newbies a lot.

It may, or it it may not. I believe that it would be useful, but often by simply right clicking on the image you may get an option that can display those settings. And there are certainly some third party tools that will provide you with this facility.

[Oneputt]

I personally am always very careful about critiqueing any one else work, as I do not consider myself qualified to say anything other than I like it, and the reasons for liking it.

Images I really do not like I refrain from commenting on, but just because I have not made a comment does not mean that I do not like it, as I may just not have seen it.

Images I have posted for critique are fair game. I have received both poisitive and negative feedback, and both are important to me. No one has yet gone overboard with either and I am happy about this. It was not so long ago that I was a newbie, and not all my images drew comments. I understpood and accepted this.

You are quite right with your comment about the quality of this forum, as Tina Turner once sang "It is simply the best"

[owen]

I personally have had comments on my photos that give me ideas on how to change it for the better, and that advice is terrific.

Personally I'm very happy with the comments that I get, and although I don't comment on other photos much, if I notice something that I can comment on then I try to.

I guess the only way to institute a compulsory commenting thing is like they have with photosig, you have to comment a certain number of times before you can post an image, but that is not what this site is about.

[Killakoala]

Fair rant.

However i would like to add that although i have been here quite a long time now, i feel that your comments were aimed at people such as me, but i can only answer for myself. So i will;

Whenever i see a 'newbie' posting a pic/thread for the first time, i have a look at the photos and always comment if there is something that hasn't already been said in other comments on that thread. If it's all been said, then i won't say anything unless i am impressed or i like the image. I am rarely the first person to answer picture threads, or any threads for that matter so there is a good chance someone has already commented on the photo(s)

In other words, i offer advice/praise/criticism where it is necessary.

I think you might also notice that the people who have been here for a while tend to post more photos as well, so will invariably get more responses. But they too, are learning the art, even though they are no longer beginners, and still need advice which is usually given.

Newbies and beginners tend to be a bit reluctant to post comments to a members photos, senior members photos or one that is posted by a professional, which in my opinion is unfortunate as it is just as important to listen to comments from people whose idea on a photograph/image is different, no matter how much experience they might have.

From a personal point of view, i believe this forum has delevoped a more 'peer advice/support' feel to it rather than a 'peer condemnation' feel that DPreview and other forums have. It would be rare that someone's photos are reviewed with destructive criticism. The opposite is true. If a photo is not very good, then only constructive criticism is given, with lots of advice on how to improve the photo.

I think that's what i meant to say.

And keep posting Informer, as your comments are valuable.

[Greg B]

.....There are also pictures that I don't understand (like the current photo of the week) yet gets praises from the same sort of "in people".....

Just on this one point informer, I think the likes and the dislikes were about even on the PotW this week.

And with the reference to the "in people", which is basically a variation on the "people in the loop" which got jethro a bit excited last week, it is human nature that you get to know people better over time and with more contact. There are people here who have made many many posts, been to lots of meets, wined and dined together, had a few laughs etc. We encounter people with whom we feel a connection, and maybe we gravitate towards posts from those people we know a bit better than others.

But I would have to say that new arrivals here have always been treated very warmly. When the membership number was still in double figures, there was usually a whole thread just welcoming a new member!

The "in people" are simply those people who participate regularly, whether often or occasionally. In other words, "in people" are just active members, and you would encounter the same situation in any group. Everyone is welcome to enjoy Birddog's legendary hospitality at the Saturday meets, or for those out of Sydney, to enjoy or organise meets locally.

There is a well entrenched inclusiveness here, and as with any group or club, all that newer members need to do is get involved. There is nothing to stop them.

[stubbsy]

Guess I'm a member of the "in people" going by my post count so here's my 2 cents.

Informer I think your comments/fears are valid but not the reality.

On the issue of receiving critiques
I've posted pics and occasionally got no response. I've posted pics and been, politely, told they suck by other senior members. I've also been told by the same people that other images I've posted were great. Similarly I've been told by newbies that my images suck or are fantastic or somewhere in between. So when it comes to critique I personally have had the lot from both old hands and new members alike. On those occasions where I've had no comment, I've bumped my image with a comment along the lines of "So is it really that bad. Tell me I can take it" My theory is that given sufficient exposure there will be someone who can give me an appraisal of my image, but sometimes high post volumes cause posts to disappear before being noriced.

On the issue of making critiques
I look at most, but not all, images posted in the reviews & critiques section. I post comments on them without fear or favour. I certainly don't hunt out images based on who posted. I do have to confess to some biases when it comes to people who've been around here a while:

• Having got to know someone's ability from exposure to a body of work I'm inclined to be MORE critical of what I perceive as an average quality post than from someone whose work I am not familiar with. But in either case I comment, just not as harshly with the newbie
• If I have nothing to say I am MORE inclined to try to say something for a newbie to encourage them and help them feel part of the community. For older hands I'd just make no comment
• I'm more likely to make a humorous or edgy comment when I know the person since I don't like to offend people and when you know someone you know the boundaries.

On including EXIF data
While having been around here a while I'm a relative newbie photographically (3 years TOTAL experience, 7 months SLR - never used film) and that when it comes to this sort of info it is only of academic interest to me. I see nothing wrong with including it, but I certainly wouldn't like to see it made mandatory (partly cos I'm too lazy to look it up if I don't have to ) Generally a shot is a great one more because of the compositional eye of the person behind the camera than what settings they used. I could use the same materials as Da Vinci, but I can't paint the Mona Lisa.

Finally. No need to apologise for being direct. Better to clearly articulate a viewpoint and share it effectively than have others misunderstand what you are saying. One of the things I love about this forum is that people feel comfortable speaking their mind without the need to become over emotional or flaming. We are all individuals here with different views and each and every one of us should be respected for the views they hold even where they differ from those you may hold.

Thank you for sharing your views and engendering some stimulating discussion.

Edit: And on the question of Leigh's current POTW - I have to confess that I have met Leigh and find him an interesting and funny fellow whose company I enjoy. If you look at my post on the POTW thread you'll also see that regardless I said I didn't like his image (and, importantly, I also said why I didn't like it). Like I said - no fear or favour.

[ozimax]

Fair enough postings here by all I think, I am certain that the d70 forum, in comparison with many other forums out there, is very fair in its format and purpose. I for one would like to be able to attend some Sydney meets but I physically can't, being on the Nth Coast. I also would like to post/critique more but sometimes work schedules mean I don't have the time to do so.

I have found that if you are willing to put in some effort in reviewing and commenting on images (and other stuff), then the able fellow members of d70 are more than happy to help out.

Just be patient and put in the effort and the reward will come.

Max

[phillipb]

I agree with what Greg had to say, there may be a loop but it is not a closed loop, anyone is welcome to join it simply by contributing.
One point I would like to make is that a "Newby" is not necessarily a novice. I know how hard it it to get people to even put their location in their profile, but maybe a bit of information on "level of experience" may help other people with the kind of comments they post to their photos.

[Hlop]

I agree with what Greg had to say, there may be a loop but it is not a closed loop, anyone is welcome to join it simply by contributing.
One point I would like to make is that a "Newby" is not necessarily a novice. I know how hard it it to get people to even put their location in their profile, but maybe a bit of information on "level of experience" may help other people with the kind of comments they post to their photos.

I should tell that this loop has a name - it's reputation and everyone welcome to this loop and to desrve own reputation. Also it has nothing to do with experience - I've seen newbies in photography were doing beatiful photos and people like me - I do photography for relatively long time but most of my photos are crap.

[Glen]

Informer, you have raised a valid point, I will just throw a few other thoughts into it. People post for many reasons, sometimes because they believe they have an excellent shot and would like to be congratulated, sometimes for critique, sometimes for help, to illustrate a point or a multitude of other reasons. Until I am sure of the flavour of the person, I will not post a harsh critique for a first post. You may be different. I will post a complimentary post if it is a good or intriguing shot. If I really don't like a shot and it is a first post, I take my Mum's advice and say nothing at all.

[informer]

Hi everyone, just thought I'll pop in to say a couple of words.

I'm not targeting anybody in particular (gstark or sheepie - these names were the easiest to remember for some reason ), in fact no one is a target!

Just want to mention about how some of us can identify image review and critque better. I would think posting as many pictures to it would probably help increases my chance of getting reviews, but I don't think that's made for it and I reckon people would be sick of that.

Some of us are not technically familiar with camera works and things done "in the name of art", but a lot of us has an eye for beauty so every opinions matters even if they were negative.

Granted, I feel all the pictures I've seen here have been class A, comments about how it could be better would certainly add value to the reviews.

Just my very quick 2 yen.

[genji]

informer, if you havent seen this post it may interest you,

mini-challenge

[pippin88]

I find myself looking at a reasonable number of the image posts (by no means all or even most), but I comment only rarely. Usually my thoughts have already been said and I'm aware of the fact that I don't like certain photos just because they are a type of photo (eg kid photos in general).

[sirhc55]

I have been involved in photography for more years than I would like to remember. I shoot on a daily basis professionally for many clients and by getting paid it is an indication of their acceptance of my pics.

But, when I shoot for pleasure I am no longer a professional I am just like the person who has had a camera for a day. I expect and welcome critique as much as a newbie

[Onyx]

...I don't like certain photos just because they are a type of photo (eg kid photos in general).

Quoted for effect.

[cyanide]

Just to add my thoughts.... I think even more people putting EXIF info in their photo posts would be great. I know that I am often curious what settings a photo is taken on... often they may add these details later in the thread, but putting them in with the photo is really helpful.

I know that many people already do it... but many do not.

[embi]

Well I can say that I was a newbie (one or two weeks old) and definetly not in the "loop" when I submitted an image and it was well recieved. It even got POTW.

Maybe I just take better images! (VERY MUCH TONGUE IN CHEEK)

[mic]

For heavens sake,

There is a lot of people trying to make new rules, want more Critique, want this, want that.

Go out take some pictures, put up & shut up !

Get hit a few times, get to know the in people, if you don't like that be an out person.

Simple really.

Mic.

[Glen]

[gstark]

Well I can say that I was a newbie (one or two weeks old) and definetly not in the "loop" when I submitted an image and it was well recieved. It even got POTW.

Maybe I just take better images! (VERY MUCH TONGUE IN CHEEK)

Well, if anyone is in the "loop" then it would surely be me, but none of those horrid mods has seen fit to award me a PotW.

And might I say, deservedly so too.

So much for any "loop"!

[gstark]

if you don't like that be an out person.

And then submit a picture of your house.

[mic]

hhee hee, and your family,

We will send Kipper around with his huge arsenal

[ozimax]

Go out take some pictures, put up & shut up !

Get hit a few times, get to know the in people, if you don't like that be an out person.

Not everybody has a degree in Invertology you know...

Max

[phillipb]

Well, if anyone is in the "loop" then it would surely be me, but none of those horrid mods has seen fit to award me a PotW.

And might I say, deservedly so too.

So much for any "loop"!

Gary, if memory serves me right, the last photos you posted was about 6 months ago of some deck chairs and one of Bondi beach, give of Mods a go, they can't make miracles

[gstark]

Gary, if memory serves me right, the last photos you posted was about 6 months ago of some deck chairs and one of Bondi beach

We need to reload your memory, Phil.

I posted some images from the Melbourne F1GP, and I posted some images from the Sydney Night Shoot about two months back.

I post rarely, but I do try to make it worthwhile.

[informer]

gstark,

I thought I'd post here instead of clouding the other one unnecessarily.

The selection criteria for PotW is totally open. I provide no guidelines whatsoever and exert no influence. When Leigh asked me this week to comment on his short list, my response that it was his call.

When he persisted, I offered a couple of observations about a couple of the choices, and he disputed and we discussed those, which was good, because it helped him cement his views on the eventual choice.

That's great. This week's PotW is certainly eyecatching and that's why everybody is mostly positive about it.

The bottom line is that it's up to each mod to choose whatever he wants, for whatever reason he likes - or for no reason at all. There is no need for them to justify their choice to me, nor to anyone else, and no matter what they choose, they will have my full support in that choice.

Phrase that on another forum and I wonder what the responses will be. I think that could be a problem if the moderators had their own agendas but I'm glad this is not the case here, or is it? That's probably Jethro's reasoning behind his comments. Personally I don't see any problem but I can see what Jethro is trying to say (if quite discretely at that).

Please do not misinterpret that last statement as me saying that I will like their choice; that may or may not happen, but regardless of my feelings about their choice, I will accept and support that selection as the PotW.

Being a moderator or owner of a forum is certainly not easy.

And as to your observation about the in-group - I do find that quite offensive.

The only "in-group" here is that of people who participate frequently in the discussions, and perhaps those who are able to come to mini-meets.

You make yourself a part of that "group" by joining in. Significantly, you exclude yourself by not joining in.

Consider that a member might live in Sydney. Surely, it's up to that member to get up off their backside and perhaps get themselves a little more involved, if they wish?

Many do, and many do not. That's fair enough too. But for those who do not to then claim that there's some sort of in-group, to which they do not belong, when they've made little real effort at participation themselves ... excuse me, but that's a bit hard to swallow.

So, please permit me to say this again - you exclude yourself by not joining in.

My apologees for coming across as trying to identify a culprit/s here. There aren't any. The in-group could be anybody as long as someone benefits from it. For some of us, we can't be in Sydney or Melbourne at a drop of a hat. That doesn't mean we don't want to be a part of the club. I think d70users.com is quality, I would pay to be a member no problem but it is kind of difficult for me to be there if I can't "be there".

I have yet to meet a more friendly, and a more welcoming bunch of people - from all parts of our lonely planet - on the web. That so many of us can - and do - engage in meaningful discussions, often agreeing to disagree but always respecting one's right to disagree, is a strong and vital part of this community.

I agree. Aussie forums are somewhat laidback and less sensitive than the other forums I've visited. They can be great, however, sometimes when someone wants to give a different perspective (aka criticism) he ends up looking like an asshole because everyone else originally takes it for what it is.

That we have, one year on, yet to see a flame war here is something that I feel is truly remarkable, and a feat of which you, the members, should be proud.

I'm also glad there aren't any immature d50 vs d70 flame wars either (playful digs are welcomed though).

Here's the issue I have: I still cannot understand the thrust of Jethro's comments. Seriously.

I feel that he has totally failed to articulate his point in a comprehensible manner, and despite my saying as much within last week's thread, I am still no closer to gaining any sort of understanding of the message he is trying to convey.

But you've said that he "did throw some interesting points about the validity of PotW"

Jethro made one comment about the PotW concept: that it was "a wank". Those were his words.

If he feels so strongly that it's not a valid concept, why then did feel compelled to comment, just a few days later, that "this is a great shot" ? Something here is very wrong in his words; they're totally contradictory! He cannot eat his cake and then still have it.

Which brings me back to my earlier point - that he has utterly failed to
articulate his point in a comprehensible manner. And I know that others feel the same; there are other similar comments in last week's thread.

I think he was saying that the last PotW in particular was a wank. Granted not everybody liked it but it was voted PotW and that's that. When you have something as controversial as that, then you're bound to get people talking.
[/quote]

[gstark]

gstark,

I thought I'd post here instead of clouding the other one unnecessarily.

Thank you.

The bottom line is that it's up to each mod to choose whatever he wants, for whatever reason he likes - or for no reason at all. There is no need for them to justify their choice to me, nor to anyone else, and no matter what they choose, they will have my full support in that choice.

Phrase that on another forum and I wonder what the responses will be. I think that could be a problem if the moderators had their own agendas but I'm glad this is not the case here, or is it? That's probably Jethro's reasoning behind his comments. Personally I don't see any problem but I can see what Jethro is trying to say (if quite discretely at that).

So what if the mods have their own agendas? I actually believe they do, and within the context of this forum I believe it's to have fun, as well as help others to do likewise.

Beyond that, I see no agenda pushing by any of the mods, but if you do, please point my nose at an example.

As to Jethro's reasoning ... I'll leave that to greater minds than mine. He tried to say what he meant, and I simply have no comprehension of that. While your percieved understanding is exactly that, I know a number of people took his intial comments in a similar vein, and in all honesty, his failure to fully clarify his statements disappoints me.

And as to your observation about the in-group - I do find that quite offensive.

The only "in-group" here is that of people who participate frequently in the discussions, and perhaps those who are able to come to mini-meets.

You make yourself a part of that "group" by joining in. Significantly, you exclude yourself by not joining in.

Consider that a member might live in Sydney. Surely, it's up to that member to get up off their backside and perhaps get themselves a little more involved, if they wish?

Many do, and many do not. That's fair enough too. But for those who do not to then claim that there's some sort of in-group, to which they do not belong, when they've made little real effort at participation themselves ... excuse me, but that's a bit hard to swallow.

So, please permit me to say this again - you exclude yourself by not joining in.

My apologees for coming across as trying to identify a culprit/s here. There aren't any. The in-group could be anybody as long as someone benefits from it. For some of us, we can't be in Sydney or Melbourne at a drop of a hat. That doesn't mean we don't want to be a part of the club.

And I accept and respect that. Note that this week's PotW is from a Canadian. Note that there have been quite a number of overseas winners since we commenced this. Note too that there have been a number of non-Sydneysiders selected as well. Finally, note that Sydney is the only location with regular meetings.

If coming to meetings is a requirement of being part of the "loop", clearly a large number - probably most - of the winners must be from outside of that loop.

The math is simple; all it takes a few seconds to count the locations, and a little bit of understanding to comprehend what's going on.

Which is nothing!

I have yet to meet a more friendly, and a more welcoming bunch of people - from all parts of our lonely planet - on the web. That so many of us can - and do - engage in meaningful discussions, often agreeing to disagree but always respecting one's right to disagree, is a strong and vital part of this community.

I agree. Aussie forums are somewhat laidback and less sensitive than the other forums I've visited. They can be great, however, sometimes when someone wants to give a different perspective (aka criticism) he ends up looking like an asshole because everyone else originally takes it for what it is.

The only ones here who might end up looking like an asshole do so because of their own perceptions, rather then any reality.

We have no issue with criticism, where it is warranted. As I've said, I'm waiting on somebody to please fully explain to me the crux of Jethro's issues. I can only address what I understand, but Jethro's complaints sound to me more akin to him not liking the colour of a wall in a house, so he's going to try to burn the whole house down, rather than just repaint the wall.

Which brings me back to my earlier point - that he has utterly failed to articulate his point in a comprehensible manner. And I know that others feel the same; there are other similar comments in last week's thread.

I think he was saying that the last PotW in particular was a wank. Granted not everybody liked it but it was voted PotW and that's that. When you have something as controversial as that, then you're bound to get people talking.

[/quote]

If that's what he feels - that the image was a wank - then he is perfectly free to say so.

Instead, he appears to have chosen to denigrate - with no evidence whatsoever - the selection process, and in so doing he has probably offended a number people whom I respect, not to mention myself as well.

As I have repeatedly said, there is no influence whatsoever exerted by anyone regarding the selection of the PotW, and even Blind Freddy would be able to see this with a simple assessment of the winners, their locations, and the length of their membership, over any given period.

That he seems to not see or accept this is, IMHO, his failure, and I'm afraid there's little I can do about that.