ICC profile in PS when saving for web

[Alex]

Hi all,

Another query. When I select 'save for web' in PS CS should I leave ICC clicked or unclicked? My gut feeling is unclicked because IE or Netscape browsers can't handle colour management, but when I left it unclicked the colours in IE where different to those in PS and NC. Is there a way to get the same colours in IE as in PS and NC?

Thanks
Alex

[cybersonic]

Before you save your image for the web, make sure it is in sRGB color space. If it's not, convert it (not a simple assign, but a convert) (Image -> Mode -> Convert to profile...). Then save your image, no need to include the profile, it'll show up correctly in your browser (or any other app without color management).
Hope this helps,
Christophe.

[Raydar]

Just found this article that mite come in hand!!!!

http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/21351-1.html

Cheers
Ray

[Alex]

Thanks Ray, just bookmarked it.
Alex

[sirhc55]

Personally I always use the save as command rather than save for web. After changing the longest size of the image to 800 pixels save as jpeg value 8

[OzzieGirl]

I have also been having drama's with PS CS colour management.

First of all, should the working space in PS be set to sRGB IEC61966-2.1 (the colour profile that is embedded in the jpg's taken straight off the camera) or should it be set to the current monitor space (colour profile for the LCD monitor)? Also, should all the colour management policies be switched off?

If I use the embedded colour profile from the camera (sRGB IEC61966-2.1) and click Save As or Save For Web after completing PP, the image always appears darker and the colours are altered when viewed in Windows Explorer.

[MattC]

OzzieGirl,

If you ultimately end up saving your sRGB images from your camera as sRGB, then yes, use sRGB as the default work space - just for the sake of continuity and simplicity. It is preferrable to avoid unneccessary profile conversions. Color management policies should be (but don't need to be) turned on. They help to keep track of whats what when there is a mix of images with different profiles. Tick "ask when opening" in all and either "convert to working space" or "preserve embedded". Your choice, but generally "preserve embedded" is the one to use. You will have the choice when you open an image with a profile mismatch. You can work with a different profile in an image (use "preserve embedded") even if the profile is mismatched to the default workspace - PS will use that profile as the workspace for that image.

If you shoot RAW, this opens up a few doors.... but that may be a different subject.

The only place that a monitor profile should be loaded is to the video card and this should be the only profile loaded to the video card. This profile will, however, show up in the dropdown list in PS colour management.

I do not use "save for web" much these days - probably because I had problems early. I simply convert to profile (I work with wider profiles) using perceptual intent (generally preferred) or relative colorimetric, select 8 bit and save as jpeg. The upside (?) is that EXIF is preserved - I only use "save for web" when I need to par every possible kb from the image. If the monitor is correctly profiled and calibrated, there should be no perceptable colour shifts. This was a problem that I had early, and was resolved with a Spyder. It does not hurt anything to have sRGB colour profile attached to an image even in apps that are not colour aware such as the Windows Picture and Fax Viewer. These apps effectively ignore the colour space and assume sRGB.
As mentioned previously by others, the image should be 8bit sRGB prior to using "save for web".


Cheers

Matt

[OzzieGirl]

Thanks for the advice Matt. I changed the settings in PS as you suggested. I still seem to be having problems with the colours though.

Just to confuse things further, I tried opening a NEF file in PS and also in Capture. The photo looked much more saturated/colourful/high contrast in Nikon Capture. The colours seemed washed out in PS (almost one extreme to the other). Which program would reflect the true colours of the photo as saved by the camera?

[MattC]

OzzieGirl,

That is normal. ACR does not use rendering modes, curves or anything else from a NEF other than the WB info.

Edit: This was in response to the last part of your post.

Cheers

Matt

[big pix]

Thanks for the advice Matt. I changed the settings in PS as you suggested. I still seem to be having problems with the colours though.

Just to confuse things further, I tried opening a NEF file in PS and also in Capture. The photo looked much more saturated/colourful/high contrast in Nikon Capture. The colours seemed washed out in PS (almost one extreme to the other). Which program would reflect the true colours of the photo as saved by the camera?

you need to set up your colour management in Photoshop before you will get near correct colours....... then have your screen profiled....... do not use the camera profile to view pix's in photoshop, use adobe 1998, as it is 2:30am where I am, I will post you some simple instruction on a correct setup when I get some sleep.......

[OzzieGirl]

ACR does not use rendering modes, curves or anything else from a NEF other than the WB info.

Would you recommend using Nikon Capture for PP rather than PS for this reason?

big pix- Thanks also for the advice. Look forward to the setup instructions.

As a newbie at DSLR photography, I can't believe how much there is to learn. This forum is a great resource of information.

[MattC]

Would you recommend using Nikon Capture for PP rather than PS for this reason?

For a someone who is new to all of this I will say yes. NC is the smoother transition. It has shortcomings, but so do all other raw convertors, but it will make it easier for a beginner to get good results BTW, I assumed that you were shooting jpegs in sRGB... my Sony. Assume nothing. I also forgot something important. Images with Nikon's profiles NksRGB or NkAdobe (as used in NC) need to be converted to sRGB or Adobe1998 respectively in PS. These profiles are very similar, yet different (LUT (NC) vs matrix (PS)).

If you shoot raw you will benefit from using aRGB as your default working space.

In the options>colour management tab in NC set default colour space to NkAdobe and tick the box directly under that so that NC opens all images in that colour space. This is a cheat to getting ModeIaRGB - allows ModeI sRGB images to be opened in aRGB colour space.
Edit your image and save as tiff.

In PS colour management, set default working space as Adobe1998, set policies to "convert to working", "ask when opening" and "Relative Colorimetric".
When you open your tiff images (from NC) in PS you will be prompted to convert to your working space. Click OK.

When you have finished editing your image in PS, and are ready to save for web, convert to sRGB, convert to 8 bit, then "save for web". Alternatively, convert to sRGB, convert to 8 bit, then "save as" and select jpeg.

Your custom (or canned) monitor profile should be loaded in display properties > colour management. This profile needs to be specific to your monitor. Either custom (using a spyder) or at a pinch, canned (supplied by your LCD's manufacturer, if one exists).
If you still have colour shifts, then the problem is monitor calibration in which case I would highly recommend a Spyder. Decent eyeball calibration using tools such as Adobe Gamma is very difficult at the best of times. Some pros, who know what they are doing can spend half a day with AG and still only get midtones right. LCDs can be harder, so us mere mortals don't stand much of a chance.

Sorry if I cause any confusion.

I have been working all night so time for me to get some sleep.

Cheers

Matt

[big pix]

..... everyone has different ways of working, but I have found the following to be very good for screen colour and for printing.......in Photoshop go to.....

1 Photoshop colour settings:
RGB:Adobe RGB 1998
CYMK:U.S.Web Coated [Swop"v2
GREY:Dot Grain 20%
SPOT:Dot Grain 20%

2 Colour Management Policies:
RGB:Preserve Embedded Profiles
CYMK:Off
GREY:Off
Profile missmatches:tick
Missing Profiles:tick
Ask when passing:tick

3 Conversion Options:
Engine:Adobe {ace}
Intent:Perceptual
Use black point Compensation:tick
Use Dither {8-bit/channel images}

go OK

Now you have to set up your print space to work with the above, it is easy.....I use PSCS2 but the settings are the same but with a slight difference in heading, pm mic if you are having any worries....

In Photoshop go to......
Print with preview....
Colour management:
Profile :Adobe RGB 1998

Options:
Colour handling: Let Photoshop Determine Colours
Printer Profile: This will set your printer stock profile for printing.... from a drop down menu just pick the Epson profile for the stock you are using, better results from Epson stock or Ilford stock.
Rendering Intent: Perceptual
Black Point Compensation: Tick

Now your camera should be set to Adobe RGB also to get the best results from the above as it is a Working Colour Management from Camera to print.

I always work to the above and do not worry about sRGB but if photoshop asks always pick the working RGB which should be Adobe 1998. Even when I post images I also work to the above as you can get caught up in too many ways of doing things,

the above should also help your screen images but the only way to improve this is have your screen profiled using a spyder or Eye One.

try and use one program for all your needs as using many adds to the confusion

happy shooting......

Edit: I also work on a Mac.......with a mac 20inch screen......

[big pix]

...... let me also add that there is many ways of processing and printing images, the above works for ME very well for the way I shoot, always in RAW, and my printer setup which is Epson

I have an Eye One to profile my screen and to make printer stock profiles, in doing this and some serious testing I have found very little difference between the Profiles supplied by Epson and what I have produced myself, I have done testing on different stocks from different suppliers using Epson profiles and my profiles. I have found that the best results for prints come from Epson and Ilford stock, hard to pick the difference in quality from the 2 stocks and profiles, then canon stock which I have found a bit flat looking.

There are other paper stocks available but as these give me the results I need and are an easy purchase as I have little choice on the Gold Coast and sometimes have to get stock delivered from Brisbane....

[johnd]

I too am having a heap of trouble getting my colours right when printing.
I print at HN using Fuji Frontier and just can't seem to get my monitor to match the printer.

I thought I could rent a Spyder in Hobart, but that all fell through.

So, I've decided I need to buy a Spyder. I believe the particular unit I need is a SpyderII. Any ideas where to buy these? What price should I pay? Better still, anyone know if there is a used one for sale? Already checked Ebay, nothing there.

[sirhc55]

I am in total agreement with bp on only using AobeRGB in camera - all images that I post are Adobe RGB

[OzzieGirl]

I still seem to be having problems with inconsistent colours when saving images as a jpg. I've tried just about everything to fix it. When shooting jpgs on my camera (D50) the colour space in camera is set to IIIa (sRGB). I have set the working space to sRGB in PS and NKsRGB in NC for viewing jpgs straight off the camera. The colour's are fine when i view the images in these two programs, but as soon as i 'save as' in either PS or NC, the colours look different in Windows Explorer. If i re-open the photos in PS or NC, the colours are back to being bright again.

I have checked the Windows colour management profile and it seems to match the Sony LCD monitor that i use. When i go into the monitor settings, you can change the colour temperature... it is currently set on 9300K (as opposed to 6500K, sRGB or custom). Is this correct? If i change this setting to sRGB, the whites look brown/gold.

For testing purposes, i changed the workspace in PS to match the monitor profile. When i opened the original jpg straight off the camera and selected 'discard the embedded profile', the colours of the image look darker (the same as after a 'save as' and viewing it in Explorer).

Alternatively, if i keep the workspace set to the monitor profile and choose 'convert the document's colours to the working space' when opening the jpg, the colours in the photo remain ok after saving it. This also works when opening a raw file in PS.

I have not been able to work out how to save an image in NC however, without the colours being altered. If i open an image in NC and then import it to PS, the colours are also very slightly affected.

Hope this is not too confusing

[big pix]

I still seem to be having problems with inconsistent colours when saving images as a jpg. I've tried just about everything to fix it. When shooting jpgs on my camera (D50) the colour space in camera is set to IIIa (sRGB).
SET YOUR CAMERA TO 'ADOBE RGB' AND LEAVE IT ALONE

I have set the working space to sRGB in PS
SET YOUR WORKING SPACE TO ADOBE 1998 IN PHOTOSHOP FORGET s RGB USE THE WORKFLOW AS I HAVE POSTED

and NKsRGB in NC for viewing jpgs straight off the camera. The colour's are fine when i view the images in these two programs, but as soon as i 'save as' in either PS or NC, the colours look different in Windows Explorer. If i re-open the photos in PS or NC, the colours are back to being bright again.

I have checked the Windows colour management profile
SET WINDOWS COLOUR MANAGEMENT TO THE DEFAULT

and it seems to match the Sony LCD monitor that i use. When i go into the monitor settings, you can change the colour temperature... it is currently set on 9300K (as opposed to 6500K, sRGB or custom).
SET THIS BACK TO DEFAULT or 6500K

Is this correct? If i change this setting to sRGB, the whites look brown/gold.

For testing purposes, i changed the workspace in PS to match the monitor profile.
DO NOT CHANGE THE WORKSPACE TO MATCH THE COLOUR SPACE OF YOUR MONITOR AS YOU WILL GET A MISMATCH

When i opened the original jpg straight off the camera and selected 'discard the embedded profile', the colours of the image look darker (the same as after a 'save as' and viewing it in Explorer).

Alternatively, if i keep the workspace set to the monitor profile and choose 'convert the document's colours to the working space' when opening the jpg, the colours in the photo remain ok after saving it. This also works when opening a raw file in PS.
SETUP AS PERVIOUS POST


I have not been able to work out how to save an image in NC however, without the colours being altered. If i open an image in NC and then import it to PS, the colours are also very slightly affected.
UN-INSTALL NC AND JUST USE PHOTOSHOP AS YOU HAVE MISMATCHED PROFILES, USE THE SETUP AS POSTED

Hope this is not too confusing

YOU HAVE MISMATCHED PROFILES
SET WINDOWS BACK TO DEFAULT YOUR MONITOR BACK TO DEFAULT
UN-INSTALL NC
AND SETUP PHOTOSHOP AS I HAVE POSTED

When you have done the above open a RAW image in PS and if you are not looking at ADOBE CAMERA RAW OR BRIDGE, NC has NOT been fully removed, and you will not get the benefit of working with ACR.....

[chris1968]

OzzieGirl - hope you dont mind me jumping in with my size 9's

Hello all, reading stuff as shown above scares me cos i end up wondering just what i have gotten into with this digital malarkey, but it gives great hope cos you guys are so helpful!

Looking at the above, am i right to think i should set the camera to aRGB given
1. i've just sorted myself with RawShooter Essentials and PCS2 and will be working with raw from here on.
2 none of the camera settings are changed from factory settings (beyond turning that sodding beep off ). Same applies to the PC.
3. i am just getting into all this (i havent even tried to print anyting yet (bloody Dell - send you a printer but Photograph ink is a separate order......) and it makes sense that getting the info right in camera has to be the correct first step.....

OzzieGirl - hope you diont mind me jumping in with my size 9's

[big pix]

OzzieGirl - hope you dont mind me jumping in with my size 9's

Hello all, reading stuff as shown above scares me cos i end up wondering just what i have gotten into with this digital malarkey, but it gives great hope cos you guys are so helpful!

Looking at the above, am i right to think i should set the camera to aRGB given
1. i've just sorted myself with RawShooter Essentials and PCS2 and will be working with raw from here on.
2 none of the camera settings are changed from factory settings (beyond turning that sodding beep off ). Same applies to the PC.
3. i am just getting into all this (i havent even tried to print anyting yet (bloody Dell - send you a printer but Photograph ink is a separate order......) and it makes sense that getting the info right in camera has to be the correct first step.....

OzzieGirl - hope you diont mind me jumping in with my size 9's

NO ..... set your camera to ADOBE RGB and follow the photoshop set up in this thread.....forget sRGB ....... read my other posts and follow or pm me.......

[big pix]

..... are you using PSCS or PSCS2...... and have you down loaded from the Adobe site the RAW plug in and installed it......

I know I have gotten away from your original question but you have to set up a digital workflow before anything else, and get it working correctly, and no mismatches of profiles.....

as stated there are many ways of doing things but stay with one and get it right.......using Adobe 1998 colour space for the web is fine and I think you will find more than one or two members who use this for posting as I do myself......

[MattC]

Johnd,

Colorvision products are distributed locally by http://kayellaustralia.com.au. The ColorPLUS is $220 - this is not a Spyder2 - it uses the older but no less capable hardware. There are quite a few resellers in au - Googling "colorvision spyder2pro site:au" (sans qotes) for example turned up quite a few. You may want to check out overseas suppliers such as bhphotovideo.com, Ardorama etc. Factor in exchange rates, freight, insurance, and gst on the sum of everything else - no nasty suprises - you should be able to get for a little (or a lot) less than local prices.
I purchased the Spyder2PRO shortly after it was released and paid the premium locally - all up, around $600. The difference between this and the Spyder2 is in the software. Spyder2pro (the software) is $300+ on its own. BTW, don't forget to check out the Gretag MacBeth Eye One (~USD70).

Cheers

Matt

[MattC]

OzzieGirl,

Sounds like a mess . Follow Big Pix's instructions for PS colour management exactly. Once that is done, any large colour shifts/differences are going to be caused by your monitor (other than previously mentioned ACR/NC differences). Now buy, beg, borrow or steal yourself a Spyder, create a profile and calibration data and all will be sweet.

Just to fill you in a little on profiles. In simplest terms profiles are used to define colours to a known standard. They are used to "translate" colour from one device to another, and to or from a working space according to those standards.
Some profiles are designed as working colour spaces (eg. sRGB, Adobe1998, ProPhoto, ColourMatch). Other profiles are designed as input profiles - NC uses these with NEF images to translate raw data into viewable image (you need not worry about these - that happens behind the scenes), another example would be a scanner profile. Others are designed as output profiles for devices such as printers and monitors. Because of the differences in how different devices handle and display colours (even two outwardly identical monitors), every device needs its own specific profile.
It is a common mistake to use a monitor profile for a working space or a profile designed as a working space for a monitor or printer. These profiles are not interchangeable unless they actually match the enviornment that they are to be used in, which is of a very low probability. Most of the time they are not even remotely close.

In your case, you need to nominate your working colour space where required (NC &/or PS), then use device specific profiles to translate the colours in your work space to something usable by your monitor (and later your printer). There is still a need to maintain continuity in colour management, and for selecting the correct rendering intent (that is well explained in PS colour management) when converting from one profile to another, but the basics are really that simple. You seem to be missing one important part of the equation which is messing everything up... monitor profile and calibration. Without these, everything else will fall on its head.

Once you have the monitor profiled and calibrated, everything will drop into place. You will be able to see what you can and cannot do.

Cheers

Matt PS. I have assumed that you have tried setting things up as described previously.

[Onyx]

I realise colour management is a complex issue, but just a caveat for those that recommend newbies use AdobeRGB, please be aware that PC users will NOT be seeing the same finished image as you've intended when you're publishing/post an image online in aRGB. Nearly all internet browsers ignore colourspace and convert to sRGB, resulting in off-colours.

AdobeRGB is a working colourspace, it exceeds the capability of most people's monitors ability to display. It should NOT be the colourspace for any finished images. Convert to sRGB for web (using perceptual intent for the most pleasing rendition), or naturally when printing the printing device will convert to CMYK or its native colourspace in the final print.

[OzzieGirl]

I realise colour management is a complex issue, but just a caveat for those that recommend newbies use AdobeRGB, please be aware that PC users will NOT be seeing the same finished image as you've intended when you're publishing/post an image online in aRGB. Nearly all internet browsers ignore colourspace and convert to sRGB, resulting in off-colours.

This is why i have been trying to setup my computer to produce consistent images in sRGB format. Most of my pics will be used online.

I have found two other topics on dpreview where people are experiencing the same problems as I am with viewing pics in PS/NC V's Windows & Internet Explorer. Links- http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read. ... ge=8905800

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read. ... e=13340487

I have left my LCD monitor (model specific) profile as the default setting in Windows colour management (is this correct or should it be set to sRGB colour space profile?), set the default workspace in PS to sRGB IEC61966-2.1 and default colour RGB colour space to NKsRGB.icm in NC.
When i view a jpg (IIIa sRGB) straight off the camera in NC and PS, the colours are the same (nice and bright), but when i view the same pic in Windows Explorer, the colours are darker. Is this simply because IE does not colour manage? If i set the proof colours in PS to 'Monitor RGB', the colour of the image looks the same in PS as it does in IE.

Matt- you are right, it is a total mess.
Thanks for the advice everyone! It has been very helpful.